Post AZdsvJbUIJ4zdx6dMm by dcc@annihilation.social
(DIR) More posts by dcc@annihilation.social
(DIR) Post #AZdA1oTHwhHtB6zlOS by 10leej@mk.starnix.network
2023-09-10T16:57:59.499Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Gentoo is still my "just works" distro.
(DIR) Post #AZdA1pLsfixLuQXMUC by orbitalmartian@linuxrocks.online
2023-09-10T17:12:24Z
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@10leej Gentoo just seems too complex for a “just works” distro, seeing as you need to compile everything from source.I have always wanted to try Gentoo though. Fedora “just works” for me atm.
(DIR) Post #AZdA8FxYerZyAXE4TA by 10leej@mk.starnix.network
2023-09-10T17:12:49.749Z
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@orbitalmartian@linuxrocks.online Depends on what you define as complex.
(DIR) Post #AZdA8GqVMZX0uwvx7A by orbitalmartian@linuxrocks.online
2023-09-10T17:13:34Z
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@10leej complex asin, not straightforward. Arch level or above is complex to me.
(DIR) Post #AZdQZ70tctADVZcCEC by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T20:17:23.910510Z
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@10leej Slackware is still my just works distro
(DIR) Post #AZdQk6BP3RCs7MlheS by david@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-09-10T20:19:42Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@orbitalmartian @10leej There's nothing more straightforward than setting some flags in make.conf and package.use then doing an emerge -aqvuDUN @world
(DIR) Post #AZdQmHLgVke5KLcJv6 by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T20:20:00.348168Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dcc @10leej debian will be my just works distro when I stop having to restart my transmission-daemon every two days
(DIR) Post #AZdQyWXHs5uXu7snse by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T20:20:57.484814Z
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@menherahair @10leej Lol, is transmission crashing?
(DIR) Post #AZdQz1pnVK8YyVmWXI by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T20:22:20.281874Z
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@dcc @10leej do you run slackware on desktop btw? if so current or stable?
(DIR) Post #AZdRMfu4h8d7uJ3djc by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T20:26:35.228264Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dcc @10leej no 3.00 leaks memory. I have a cronjob to restart it every other day to bring it from 500+ (almost twice that depending on how the seeding goes) back to sub 200. this runs on an old dell with 2gb storage alongside other stuff so it matterthis pisses me off so fucking much, 4.0 released shortly before bookworm went into freeze, the fix never got to 3.00 for whatever reason, god fucking damnit I just want to seed for fucks sake
(DIR) Post #AZdTurzsRB0tAXClTE by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T20:54:46.129610Z
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@menherahair @10leej I both duel boot it with openbsd (sometimes i need linux) and on my servers. One stable, one current.
(DIR) Post #AZdUytVyptgKzMhhGC by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T21:07:07.226100Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dcc @10leej how's current? does it esplode if you leave it for two weeks or don't read one prompt?I need something rolling because point releases are less than ideal for desktop, I refuse to use arch and debian's testing/unstable sucks. probably should just do gentoo but compiling is a pain :lolitantrum: slackware compiles a lot too I guess..
(DIR) Post #AZdVTdY0FhoORaJE24 by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T21:12:23.314550Z
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@menherahair @10leej Its great
(DIR) Post #AZdVeLDOkfrolxm96O by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T21:14:35.854059Z
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@dcc @10leej thanx
(DIR) Post #AZdVtvifJOrGKfpkx6 by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T21:16:33.491382Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@menherahair @10leej Your welcome :pepe_cofe_2:
(DIR) Post #AZdVubjV6gTwdQY15M by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-10T21:17:38.704907Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@menherahair @dcc @10leej Take the CRUX pill. I've been using it as my main desktop for two years now and I'm never going back. Taking into account all the advantages it gives you, compiling is not an issue, even with a 10 year old processor. I just lock some of the more time consuming to compile programs (llvm, qt5,etc)
(DIR) Post #AZdW9g8d0hY2dpUGvI by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T21:20:03.120856Z
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@laurel @menherahair @10leej If you want a desktop crux kinda sucks compared to slackware. Slackware has slackbuilds and much more compared to the small amount for crux.
(DIR) Post #AZdWdEWOFl67g2h7J2 by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-10T21:25:42.601200Z
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@dcc @10leej @menherahair Learning how to make your own Pkgfiles is part of operating it.The provided ports along with the user submitted ones should cover 90%, if not more, of your needs.It helped me a lot to understand how OSS as a whole is structured. And you can create a stable, easy to maintain and very light system.My torrent VM is also CRUX btw.
(DIR) Post #AZdWgGtxrNf3vbAb9U by Flamer@clubcyberia.co
2023-09-10T21:26:15.359036Z
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Spic! WOW
(DIR) Post #AZdWtYOE9Psfvmet5E by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T21:28:21.151073Z
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@laurel @menherahair @10leej >Learning how to make your own Pkgfiles is part of operating it.I mean you do for slackware as well
(DIR) Post #AZdWwxN7ixN2HSlU9o by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T21:29:11.023218Z
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@laurel @dcc @10leej that's another thing I'm considering, wanted to try crux since I read some of z3bra's blog back when I moved off windoze, probably gonna do that anyway somewhere in the meantime. Only that, I very much question the advantages; and same goes for all source-based distros, which is probably why I'm so torn. If you want to elaborate I'd enjoy that.
(DIR) Post #AZdYI2oWmmvRC6CbVg by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-10T21:44:17.445568Z
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@menherahair @10leej @dcc CRUX and Slack are quite different from gentoo. Gentoo teaches you its own way of building programs and solving dependencies. CRUX and Slack provide you with a simple set of tools that will allow you to eventually solve these problems yourself. It doesn't really feel like you are running any kind of distro bloat, it's more like Linux From Scratch with some usability scripts, an easier installation method, and a very helpful community.You will know exactly how your system works, how to fix it if it breaks, what kind of features you want compiled in your programs, how your system is structured in a pretty low level.And this will allow you to do more elaborate procedures since the "CRUX" part of the system is just some simple bash scripts. Everything else is open source programs interacting with one another.
(DIR) Post #AZdb6fYFEe79iuqynI by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T22:15:44.870172Z
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@laurel @dcc @10leej> CRUX and Slack are quite different from gentoo. Gentoo teaches you its own way of building programs and solving dependencies. CRUX and Slack provide you with a simple set of tools that will allow you to eventually solve these problems yourself.> It doesn't really feel like you are running any kind of distro bloat, it's more like Linux From Scratch with some usability scripts, an easier installation method, and a very helpful community.Oh, I totally get these, I ran with slackware before this. They don't do much for me.> You will know exactly how your system works, how to fix it if it breaks, what kind of features you want compiled in your programs, how your system is structured in a pretty low level.I get this with debian already.> And this will allow you to do more elaborate procedures since the "CRUX" part of the system is just some simple bash scripts. Everything else is open source programs interacting with one another.This would be the issue actually. Open source sucks, devs all have their own ideas how software works and they're all morons because they don't share mine. You need some policy to make them all work together, and debian provides that for you, with the caveats being:1. it will consider *everything*, even things you'll never have to worry about, at which point they're more trouble than they're worth2. it's few people maintaining >50000 packages, and they're doing so-soArch, and I imagine Crux, "solve" this by just not getting in your way. Alpine's probably same. Slackware slightly nudges you to do the simpelst thing possible, and then it takes care to never break it. Dunno what's Gentoo like there. In all cases, that's way less enforced policy than I'd like, but maintaining such thing is so much work that there's almost no distros that do that. It may just be about picking the most reliable one at this point...
(DIR) Post #AZdeBG1tqqhDsbbVUO by m0xEE@breloma.m0xee.net
2023-09-10T22:50:10.422474Z
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@menherahair Void is another good option to explore, it's binary, but you can rebuild particular packages from source easily with xbps-src. Yes, with use flags — but they aren't nearly as flexible here. And it used to be rock-solid for a rolling release, there are a few a few packages that started segfaulting after updates for me in recent months and I'm getting flashbacks from my Gentoo days, but if that is your other option, it's still not that bad — nothing to worry about :marseyemojismilemouthcoldsweat: @dcc @10leej
(DIR) Post #AZdeEclpl31rHIh7xo by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-10T22:50:54.151723Z
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@menherahair @10leej @dcc >"solve" this Crux also incentivizes you towards using the absolute necessary and to consider programming quality, such as amount of dependencies, how often developers break things and how up to spec the programs are when you decide on what to use.It officially supports ~1000 packages max. And it is not often that you will have breakage with those packages, especially with the low level ones in /core and /opt port collections. So any breakage will not break the system.My system has ~550 packages installed. I just find it a lot easier to manage them that the thousands that other distros would force me to install.>more enforced policyI never really had this problem, usually the distro specific way of doing things got in the way.I still use a normal distro on my laptop but I don't use it for development or other complex configurations.Btw, if you want to try them out, do it in a chroot. Afterwards you can just copy the filesystem or just point the bootloader to it if you decide to use them as your main.
(DIR) Post #AZdeQUtOsEOqJttYwK by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-10T22:52:01.237154Z
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@m0xEE @menherahair @10leej I dont think void really fits into the slackware, crux space at all. Its basically another arch or debian :cirno_shrug:
(DIR) Post #AZdgKeB3djuXHrUavY by menherahair@eientei.org
2023-09-10T23:14:18.498727Z
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@laurel @dcc @10leej > It officially supports ~1000 packages max. And it is not often that you will have breakage with those packages, especially with the low level ones in /core and /opt port collections.I must be spoiled, as I would hope it's never.> I just find it a lot easier to manage them that the thousands that other distros would force me to install.I just want software to do it for me. People have issues with APT, but I think it's wonderful. I never have to wonder where my files come from or where they are installed, and there's 3000 packages worth of them. Again, whole different paradigm.
(DIR) Post #AZdrVuIJ9mrXxDSIcq by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T01:19:33.156318Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@menherahair @laurel @10leej @dcc > Slackware slightly nudges you to do the simpelst thing possible, and then it takes care to never break it. Dunno what's Gentoo like there.Same as slackware, just with package manager. You will be maintainer of the packages you need in the configuration you need. On one hand this certainly requires more work from user, on the other, it also builds understanding of how what you need works, as sooner or later you would find patching packages yourself, or at very least adopting someone else's patches. CRUX appears nice, but lack of maintained systemd ports would also complicate it's setup on anything with uptime requirements across multitude of machines.
(DIR) Post #AZdratLA8BkSRYARTU by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T01:20:28.185703Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej >maintained systemd ports >uptime requirements :terry_lol:
(DIR) Post #AZds0b7oTgCHTkBHyC by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T01:25:06.453233Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej Fire-and-forget with such requirement can work fine so long you're willing to also integrate 6-8 watchdogs and kernel subsystems with own scripts, it can even be fun first dozen of times around. Then you'd start looking for ways to automate it without repeating yourself, and systemd does just that, in declarative and uniform manner too.
(DIR) Post #AZdsDz8YVrxjiOubMO by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T01:27:31.884089Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej Idk man, making some scripts is better than using system d. Its not like i dont have a lot of services either.
(DIR) Post #AZdsa43wsciHMYHkkC by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T01:31:31.309248Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej Again, so long you have just a few machines, or can tolerate service not starting due to runtime changes, fire-and-forget can be sufficient. After some threshold maintaining and synchronizing own scripts across a farm of machines is no longer viable, not to mention limited in reaction time it can provide with spawning sh interpreters.
(DIR) Post #AZdsgZpNgv6tcMZp7w by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-11T01:32:49.491700Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @10leej @dcc >but lack of maintained systemd portsThat's a feature
(DIR) Post #AZdsqscifDfGo8ZEbg by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T01:34:33.495720Z
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@laurel @dcc @menherahair @10leej Same can be said about slackware's lack of package manager, but it limits applicability to single-user and educational purposes.
(DIR) Post #AZdsvJbUIJ4zdx6dMm by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T01:35:22.164611Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej >lack of package managerIt has one?
(DIR) Post #AZdt1OxrH9ys0VTK4m by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-11T01:36:35.305697Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @dcc @10leej @menherahair The need to cover for a farm of machines edge case does not justify the very high complexity of systemd, which in itself leads to problems for the rest of 98% of cases.If you need to cover for a farm of machines then you will be using a lot more specialized software.
(DIR) Post #AZdt75IbIvj0klsrHE by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T01:37:29.884991Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej I wouldn't call a collection of tarballs exactly a package management.
(DIR) Post #AZdtEvjgkAAJPWILyK by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-11T01:39:02.004216Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @10leej @dcc @menherahair Slackware, and CRUX, are both a lot more educational than the average distro.When using one of the ready made ones you don't learn linux you learn Ubuntu, Mint, Gentoo, etcWhen using CRUX/Slack you learn linux.
(DIR) Post #AZdtHrSd5wf31JiIeO by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T01:39:24.402782Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej slackpkg is a package manager, thats un debatable.
(DIR) Post #AZdtKN4EYNq5cpV1Hc by MK2boogaloo@lab.nyanide.com
2023-09-11T01:39:59.894627Z
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@laurel @dcc @iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @10leej :tengumakeafakenews: you learn Linux too but at a slower pace.
(DIR) Post #AZdvKqz7WLeKJySuq8 by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T02:02:23.042893Z
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@laurel @dcc @menherahair @10leej The benefit of systemd is in the scalability and uniformity foremost. The same kind of complexity is required on any machine that needs to limit process resources, ensure them working, react to runtime changes in state and hardware and survive updates (i.e. any real-world server with uptime requirement). The farm was an example of case where maintaining the collection of own scripts implementing same complexity stops being however viable; more specialized software still needs to do provisioning, maintain several demons running and handle storage/network changes.
(DIR) Post #AZdvNbMk33YUkSpBGC by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T02:02:57.632362Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej In the same sense netcat is also an IRC client, sure. Just don't forget to PONG.
(DIR) Post #AZdvTuLWOPu9LuGE8u by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T02:03:59.932499Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej No? it installs packages, removes them, updates,etc (well pkgtools does the non internet stuff)
(DIR) Post #AZdytMLTjFbRID4JCS by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T02:42:12.521584Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej A package manager that does not track dependencies is about as useful as IRC client that does not handle PING requests. Sure, it saves the trouble of maintaining the file index the same way netcat saves the trouble of coupling a tcp connection with stdio and can be useful in emergencies, but a collection of tarballs would be more honest description.
(DIR) Post #AZdz3zWwtXLPicVH4S by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T02:44:09.078151Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej > package manager that does not track dependencies is about as useful >usefulYour own reasoning disproves it self
(DIR) Post #AZdzaVRflszny3XWjo by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T02:50:01.286248Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej You have some selective reading, whether you actually find manual installation of several dozens of dependencies package management or not.
(DIR) Post #AZdzi3IIJxZUyUke5w by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T02:51:21.060059Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej Sounds like your managing packages :sulurp: (also it never works out like that)
(DIR) Post #AZdzxAgT7yeqEoGgMa by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T02:54:07.127763Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej Exactly, the management is delegated to the user, instead of the package manager implementation. Some third-party implementations of actual package managers also exist, but so do proper IRC clients.
(DIR) Post #AZdzxXALXZd3xqPqzI by sysrq@freespeechextremist.com
2023-09-11T02:54:19.475420Z
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@dcc @iamtakingiteasy @10leej @laurel @menherahair it's a fancy tar -xzf
(DIR) Post #AZe03UNYoaS73gR7JY by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T02:55:16.498261Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej > instead of the package manager implementation.Well you use the manager to mange the packages, same goes for any other one.
(DIR) Post #AZe0AhhtezJqQCOAZU by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T02:56:34.192948Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej Not quite, you use a thin tar wrapper that barely manages to maintain file index. You're using file manager, really.
(DIR) Post #AZe0NBrvLTElRR26eu by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T02:58:47.951160Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej Are sets a tar feature?, trying to change the definition of a package manager is not a valid argument.
(DIR) Post #AZe0dggyVpKNfimJ7Y by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T03:01:48.463143Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej A collection of tarballs without dependency resolution is still a collection of tarballs, even if they're hosted on predictable paths. There is no *package* management.
(DIR) Post #AZe0lsdK02FZ1UyYxE by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T03:03:17.964199Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej But there is, it installed the packages, renoves them, and upgrades them. If you really want to make this argument it would be better to say package managers dont exist becuase all dependency resolution is, is installing packages.
(DIR) Post #AZe1V6w3ffKEPbJ7S4 by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T03:11:28.008890Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej Simply because slackware does not have own official package manager is not a reason to claim those do not exist. Just not maintained officially for slackware.
(DIR) Post #AZe1mlZDrAglLs2qNk by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T03:14:36.335938Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej But it does exist, The problem with you're argument is it implicates every other packagmge manger becuase they do the exact same thing other than explicit dependency management. Now slackware does have sets witch is non explicit dependency management
(DIR) Post #AZe2cr4OdtExTcSplo by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T03:24:04.397075Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej The problem with yours is that you equate file management -- a thin wrapper around the tar -- with a package management. Every package manager naturally has file management implemented in one way or another, it is a prerequisite, but not a sufficient requirement. And again, usefulness of package manager that does nothing but downloading the tarballs is exact equivalent of IRC client that does nothing but exchanging stdio with tcp socket. Not zero, but severely limited to be practical or called a package manager really.
(DIR) Post #AZe2petXDkKhTrUN4i by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-09-11T03:26:23.564407Z
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@iamtakingiteasy @menherahair @laurel @10leej But this is false, trying to saying a packager manager without dependency management is useless is just straight up wrong.
(DIR) Post #AZe2wmDIPNAsCr7sbQ by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2023-09-11T03:27:41.256448Z
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@dcc @menherahair @laurel @10leej Again, selective reading. I am not saying it is useless, I am saying that it has low usefulness, making it impractical for not implementing the supposed function it never set out to implement.