Post AZaxEuMte3VbVm01s8 by tzafrir@tooot.im
(DIR) More posts by tzafrir@tooot.im
(DIR) Post #AZWElLv7TPXZ7OoJQO by oatmeal@emacs.ch
2023-09-07T09:02:28Z
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The irony of #eugenics and #antisemitism...Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas: #Ashkenazi Jews 'are NOT Semites'Zionist leader Arthur Ruppin: German #Jews are NOT Semites but Aryan.Yet Abbas in an antisemite, even though this idea is not really new (research: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543), while Israel is naming buildings after the #Zionist leader Ruppin, who personally met with Himmler's mentor, Hans F. K. Günther.Arthur Ruppin's Concept of RaceIn: Amos Morris-Reich, Israel Studies , Fall, 2006, Vol. 11, No. 3 (Fall, 2006), pp. 1-3.
(DIR) Post #AZWIiLQrEOxwYJTd9k by KarunaX@mastodon.social
2023-09-07T09:46:44Z
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@oatmeal @histodons @israel @palestine I would be interested in your assessment of the oft-made point that Jews are not Semites, or indeed any specific ethnicity, any more than Christians are a single racial group. Surely the presence of Ethiopian, Indian, European and Levantine & Arab Jews (ditto for Christians) means that "anti-Semitism" is a rather loose label for those who criticize Jews for being Jews? Perhaps some other term is more accurate?
(DIR) Post #AZWRkGlkRFioFzEzrs by oatmeal@emacs.ch
2023-09-07T11:27:57Z
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@KarunaX @histodons @israel @palestine I think it'd be very difficult to claim it's a "race" indeed, for the reasons mentioned, or an even an ethnic group. Many converted to Judaism along the way, like they did to Christianity. As a secular Israeli, I feel more familiar with an Israeli-Palestinian than a with a Haredi, or an ultra-Orthodox Jew living in Brooklyn. Yet there are some commonalities between certain groups of Jews, like Tunisian Jews (Djerba considered one of the oldest communities outside the Hoyland), or the Nash Didan community (who maintained their Aramaic for centuries in the diaspora). Both are claimed to be direct descendants of the Jews of the Babylonian exile or prior. Not sure how much of it is based in scientific research. The real problem, I think, is Israel insisting on taking ownership of Jews and Judaism, and claiming to represent them, or protect them from anti-Semitism, while its own actions are clearly the problem. It's been the problem since its inception with the aid of a colonial power,. Ethnic cleansing of Palestine was very much part of the bigger plan of people like Ben Gurion.
(DIR) Post #AZYd49U8YX49WdOPuS by KarunaX@mastodon.social
2023-09-08T12:44:12Z
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@oatmeal @histodons @israel @palestine Thanks for that reply. While I lack your expertise concerning the various ancestral threads of modern Jewry, in my time living in Israel I was aware of the distinct racial differences amongst the Israeli population. At the time I thought little of it other than to applaud the (then) open-ness of Israel to a variety of ethnicities. Today it seems Israel wants to conceal these differences to further some distorted narrative.
(DIR) Post #AZYlBJ1kHCTMmQ2EkK by oatmeal@emacs.ch
2023-09-08T14:15:09Z
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@KarunaX @histodons @israel @palestine interesting reply and it’s wonderful that you can talk from experience. But it’s important to remember that Jewish existence in the Holyland predates the arrival of pogrome refugees from Eastern Europe (retroactively called 1st alya) in the 2nd half of the 19th century. If there’s any “openness” it’s of native Jews and Muslims living in Palestine accommodating what turned out to be an invasion of sorts (of alien people (to the region and it’s history) backed by cynical colonial arrangements.
(DIR) Post #AZZpr6bDT1qlNAm0CO by KarunaX@mastodon.social
2023-09-09T02:42:13Z
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@oatmeal @histodons @israel @palestine I agree totally. Until the European invasion that began in the early 20th C there were no issues between the major religious and ethnic groups in Palestine. The ideology of Zionism, allied with European colonial mentality, is what perverted normal life in Palestine.
(DIR) Post #AZaWAVYlcfrQIYVoYK by tzafrir@tooot.im
2023-09-09T07:38:17Z
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@KarunaX @oatmeal @histodons @israel @palestine You mean: as in the killing of Jews and Christians in Jerusalem, Hebron and Zefat time of the Peasant Revolt of 1834?
(DIR) Post #AZaWAXEHPof3TawTtg by oatmeal@emacs.ch
2023-09-09T07:49:00Z
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@tzafrir @KarunaX @histodons @israel @palestine Throwing a list of massacres or random acts of violence against Jews (and conveniently Christians, to make sure we know who the real enemy is I suppose) is a practice suitable to the Hebrew Wikipedia. Events picked up randomly in the “what about” genre of trolling, is still silly. Why not go back to the crusaders and the massacre of all the Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem by Christians? Pre nation-state Palestine was no better or worse than any other place around the Ottoman Empire. Conflict arose often due to western capitulations imposed on the ottomans by Europeans (and also Russia), which privileged some religious groups and created friction. Same pattern follows everywhere, as in North Africa for example. You need the context.
(DIR) Post #AZaY9ShAzF2Z284fUu by inquisitormundi@c.im
2023-09-09T06:32:09Z
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@palestine @oatmeal @histodons @israel Semites or not (probably more Slavic), they were labelled as such and massacred for this.The state of Israel is an existing fact, created for the survivors, regardless of theories of relation to ancient tribes.It was irrelevant to rely on these alleged ties one hundred years ago as a Zionist, and it is irrelevant to rely on them today as an anti-Zionist.
(DIR) Post #AZaY9UFxBQS9sHLxLM by oatmeal@emacs.ch
2023-09-09T07:35:43Z
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@inquisitormundi @palestine @histodons @israel “created for them”, stated nonchalantly, it is really disturbing. The idea of some sort of Jewish supremacy, which pushes aside everybody else’s history and rights, is such a pathology still, btw even with Israeli liberals, it’s really astonishing. Also, by whom and of course why should the Palestinians, who’s land is already occupied by Britain, pay the price of the crimes committed by Europeans on European soil? Shouldn’t have the Jews resettled in their respective homelands first and than let them decide what to do? Very few Jews wanted to immigrate to Palestine before the holocaust because the idea of a Jewish state did not appeal to them. Europe after WWII was even more antisemitic than it was before the war. And even then, some in my family, who survived the camps and went back to the Netherlands, didn’t want to go to Israel after its establishment. The ones who did arrive had really no choice.
(DIR) Post #AZaxEuMte3VbVm01s8 by tzafrir@tooot.im
2023-09-09T15:39:40Z
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@oatmeal @KarunaX @histodons @israel @palestine Right. Everything was good under the Ottoman (an empire of Turks from Mid-Asia). That period is simply not as well documented, but you have some stories of how this village came to be after a group of people had to run away from a vendetta in another place. Peaceful it was not.
(DIR) Post #AZcCwksC0CQ9H5xoRM by inquisitormundi@c.im
2023-09-10T06:10:23Z
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@histodons @oatmeal @palestine @israel Exactly.Had no choice.I seemed like a paradise compared to what was before.It’s easier to criticise retroactively what was wrong in the process.Did they have the Palestinian people in mind when left their left their land?
(DIR) Post #AZcD0pqrQygRsEHozQ by inquisitormundi@c.im
2023-09-10T06:11:07Z
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@histodons @oatmeal @palestine @israel Exactly.Had no choice.It seemed like a paradise compared to what was before.It’s easier to criticise retroactively what was wrong in the process.Did they have the Palestinian people in mind when they left Europe?
(DIR) Post #AZcKCGfkkqKvvCUPNQ by oatmeal@emacs.ch
2023-09-10T07:31:32Z
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@inquisitormundi one people’s suffering doesn’t justify the destruction of another. The Zionist movement itself didn’t even dream of a statehood, in Palestine or elsewhere. Just a home for Eastern European refugees, at least initially. Opportunistically it became possible by displacing one people to make room for another.