Post AZMbVBAkFbKyv8IiIa by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
(DIR) More posts by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
(DIR) Post #AZMRIoYXVpG1lEtbai by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T15:05:24Z
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as someone with ocd and someone traumatized by discourse culture, folks gotta stop with the 'pro c positions are more radical more better more revolutionary' kind of bs. It's coercive and disengenuous. U aren't better than folks with anti c positions.
(DIR) Post #AZMRIpJKhqgi6MmyWm by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T15:09:07Z
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And to be fucking frank the fact that anti c folks often get made fun of by some for... Having a position centered in wanting to avoid harm, trauma, and abuse of power, makes the community feel unsafe sometimes
(DIR) Post #AZMTDaOuuh7WJt1tyK by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T15:57:20Z
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@scramblecore I do think the pro c position can be good faith. Calling someone a rapist simply for being pro c is wrong. I don't know enough about you to judge you and that's not something I feel like doing anyhow.
(DIR) Post #AZMUC5VgNaJKB62lmq by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:08:14Z
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@scramblecore @pigeonclub it's not a character flaw for you to believe in what you believe, and many of us are aware that most of the society, including people we like, are in this or that way pro something harmful. I don't think anyone should be making fun of you or coercing you towards believing in something else. But that doesn't mean we're not going to think you're wrong.
(DIR) Post #AZMVhGhSvPKPoYzFhY by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:25:02Z
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@comrade_lecter @scramblecore @pigeonclub Saying pro-cs (or anti-cs, for that matter) support abuse is kind of like saying renewable energy advocates support climate change because they're mistaken about the right policies to avert it. In a way it's a logical conclusion of your beliefs, but it doesn't usefully communicate either your beliefs or theirs (or your beliefs about their beliefs).
(DIR) Post #AZMYC7nSHFrj5Qd6US by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:40:28Z
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@comrade_lecter @scramblecore @pigeonclub Also you can't say "pro-cs think anti-c policies lead to abuse, anti-cs think pro-c policies lead to abuse, all's fair" because the societal status quo puts pro-cs at a disadvantage, where they're already assumed to be rapists simply for having the attraction, whereas explaining to society about how pro-cs see anti-c as limiting youth autonomy is harder.
(DIR) Post #AZMYC8jan6MzzjpX6m by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:44:07Z
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@comrade_lecter @scramblecore @pigeonclub Basically, society is falsely accusing MAPs of being rapists right now. Society isn't accusing anyone of oppressing youth. So it makes sense to be extra careful when "I believe your policies will increase CSA" can be misheard as "You are currently trying to rape people and need to be stopped."
(DIR) Post #AZMYC9YHkcv4WxY17g by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:53:03Z
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@shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub I could as well say the society disadvantages anti cs, because casual, especially parental, CSA is rampant. This is a double edged sword. You should be careful not to pose the anti c position as anti "what the society understands by rape", because it ignores half of the problem.
(DIR) Post #AZMYaJhHgQCewfHM7k by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:57:27Z
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@shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub there are anti cs who are legalist/pro status quo, and there are anti cs for whom the main basis of being anti c is being anti nuclear family and pro youth lib. There are pro cs who are pro youth lib, and there are pro cs who want to form nuclear families with children. It's safe to say that no side of contact discourse is disadvantaged by the current society more than the other.
(DIR) Post #AZMYmXCJJZokI6cK5A by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T16:59:39Z
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@shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub also, the foundations of both pro c and anti c ideology were very pro parent and anti autonomy. Addition of youth liberation to map politics is new.
(DIR) Post #AZMZ42jpIiJb2FduSW by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:02:47Z
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@comrade_lecter @scramblecore @pigeonclub I don't mean disadvantaged as part of a debate, but disadvantaged as in the broader anti-MAP society lynching pro-cs while accepting anti-cs as sick but well-intentioned. Even though you never say "We are the good ones, those are the bad ones" that is what society hears.
(DIR) Post #AZMZRRAYdHGJT3IjR2 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:07:03Z
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@shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub I've never been accepted by the society as an anti c. Nor I've never been accepted as a "good one". It was always only hate, harassment, accusations of CSA, and censorship.
(DIR) Post #AZMZZ4LDOHpqz4vQDQ by errante@rot.gives
2023-09-02T17:08:26.569212Z
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@comrade_lecter @shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub fun fact: a lot of people who want all maps to be antic and act in a certain way hate those who do that anyway
(DIR) Post #AZMZycYnInsmLtSdIO by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:13:03Z
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@errante @pigeonclub @scramblecore @shoulderdemon there's a part of the society that wants us all dead, and a part of the society that wants us to be self hating, monitored by police and doctors, and eventually converted to exclusive teleio. If you're not that, if you're proud of your orientation and demand justice, they will see you as a threat regardless of your contact stance.
(DIR) Post #AZMa3CNG5ZP2aMFQkC by errante@rot.gives
2023-09-02T17:13:52.938334Z
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@comrade_lecter @pigeonclub @scramblecore @shoulderdemon yes, but what particular struck me is the intersection of those two camps is very real and extant
(DIR) Post #AZMaCJHRmTT2bwsGcy by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:15:31Z
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@comrade_lecter @shoulderdemon @scramblecore I wanna be clear that, I am pro youth autonomy, and in a world where youth actually had rights discourse would be so different. But we should acknowledge that both anti map, anti c, and pro c positions have the capability to obfuscate harm. The Children of God cult was a pro c pro map cult whose rhetoric espoused sex between children and adults as natural and good as both part of a parenting tactic/relationship and as a, oh we shouldn't keep (cont)
(DIR) Post #AZMadScZA1MzOohOhk by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:20:25Z
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@comrade_lecter @scramblecore @pigeonclub Society hates you as a MAP, but thinking that age gap sex is harmful is not specifically what will get you in trouble. Being pro-c strengthens the narrative that society has that MAPs are child abusers. Being anti-c weakens it. Society hates us all, but being pro-c is especially dangerous.
(DIR) Post #AZMb2wgQWjGZsKen56 by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:18:23Z
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@comrade_lecter @shoulderdemon @scramblecore kids from having sex because sex is good and natural etc. I'm NOT saying maps or the pro c community is a cult. What I'm saying is absolutely any position on map discourse, or discourse in general, can hide abuse. Nothing is ever as simple as this position good and criticizing it bad. COG is a fundy evangelic Christian sect if people were wondering, really awful.
(DIR) Post #AZMb2xLY3q9xvrtdB2 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:25:01Z
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@pigeonclub @shoulderdemon @scramblecore first time I hear about this group, could you tell me more?
(DIR) Post #AZMbPPDt678MlD1AUi by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:29:05Z
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@comrade_lecter @shoulderdemon @scramblecore super pro sex Christian cult that was responsible for abuse towards many adults and children. Not sure I have the spoons to fully explain but I could point you in the direction of some links and videos, albeit from normie entirely anti map places. Famously a man who was molested repeatedly by his mother, nannies and others as a child and featured in a book that became known as a cs manual committed murder suicide of one of his nannies. It's tragic.
(DIR) Post #AZMbVBAkFbKyv8IiIa by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:30:07Z
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@shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub I had antis describe me as worse than pro cs because apparently being anti c makes me a liar and a manipulator. Nobody gets the more dangerous part of stigma on the basis of contact discourse alone, because the society doesn't take our inner disagreements as something that happens honestly.
(DIR) Post #AZMcZvdtW9Ni9plQES by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:42:12Z
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@comrade_lecter @scramblecore @pigeonclub If that's the case then maybe pro-c's fears for their safety are unfounded, but I'd still be a bit skeptical. I don't see how promoting a narrative that a certain group of MAPs are rapists and the rest aren't could *not* be more dangerous for that group.
(DIR) Post #AZMiQjMyNVO3DEqWo4 by pigeonclub@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:24:56Z
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@shoulderdemon @comrade_lecter @scramblecore that's a big assumption and also an assumption and narrowing of the anti c position. Both pro c and anti c folks have diverse views. No maps in society are accepted right now.
(DIR) Post #AZMiQkVW9Doek1qrlQ by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:32:14Z
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@pigeonclub @comrade_lecter @scramblecore Society doesn't care what the anti-c position is. They have this idea that MAPs are inherently child abusers. So if some MAPs are calling other MAPs child abusers but not vice versa, then that's especially dangerous to the ones being called child abusers.
(DIR) Post #AZMiQlOopc3HVXj1xg by leviathan@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:50:21Z
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@shoulderdemon @pigeonclub @comrade_lecter @scramblecore this is ridiculous. Anti-c maps are not saying pro-cs are child abusers (well, usually, *child abuse apologists&enablers*) because they are maps, and maps are not the only pro-cs, *and pro-cs literally do call anti-cs child abusers (&apologists and enablers thereof) being anti-c*.
(DIR) Post #AZMiQmO99b6mZkQ0YK by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T17:59:58Z
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@leviathan @pigeonclub @comrade_lecter @scramblecore I'm saying that the "pro-cs want to rape kids" narrative is easier for society to pick up than "anti-cs want to limit youth rights." Both are misrepresentations, but when there's a lot of arguing, nuanced statements get misinterpreted and rounded off to the nearest easy narrative.
(DIR) Post #AZMiQnM3Yr1xZYRqvw by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T18:47:43Z
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@shoulderdemon @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore and I am saying that the society thinks we all "want to rape kids", it doesn't listen to what we have to say about ourselves or each other, and I don't see any practical evidence of dangers that primarily affect pro cs and spare anti cs.
(DIR) Post #AZMicC7znMs1agJ6fo by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T18:49:50Z
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@shoulderdemon @scramblecore @pigeonclub not a single map's fear for their safety is unfounded, because we all are fucked. The society is not an ally to anyone and doesn't spare anyone.
(DIR) Post #AZMq4fdGOLsOssSRii by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:13:22Z
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@comrade_lecter @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore I have very little experience discussing MAP issues outside the pediverse, but I have friends to whom I could maybe come out safely as anti-c, but coming out as pro-c would be too dangerous. They say things like being OK with MAPs who aren't proud, get help, and stay away from kids (and don't try to join the LGBT, lol).I admit I have no evidence of antis taking rhetoric from our community discourse to use against us.
(DIR) Post #AZMrnHmi0GyhuJiK8m by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:18:14Z
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@comrade_lecter @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore (I understand how they're not actually supporting anti-c MAPs, but *they* wouldn't understand that, so they probably wouldn't attack me directly if I presented myself as anti-c.)
(DIR) Post #AZMrnIr01o0LDujGT2 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:32:40Z
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@shoulderdemon @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore "They say things like being OK with MAPs who aren't proud, get help, and stay away from kids (and don't try to join the LGBT, lol)." Well I wouldn't feel safe coming out to such people, because I'm none of the above.
(DIR) Post #AZMsMn2PnQKyyOzRhI by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:39:07Z
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@comrade_lecter @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore I wouldn't feel good, but they wouldn't cut me off, and wouldn't try to harm me. (And I realize this is *very* anecdotal.)
(DIR) Post #AZMt5ttFAPvhFvD7Ds by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:47:16Z
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@shoulderdemon @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore even if you were proud, having many teenage friends, openly queer, and involved in map activism?
(DIR) Post #AZMtaJymjQzSrGJAhc by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:52:45Z
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@comrade_lecter @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore I'm speculating a little, but yes I think if I emphasized that sex with kids is bad and never hinted that it could be OK, I wouldn't be cast out. Their idea of MAP activism is promoting sex with kids.
(DIR) Post #AZMtlj4vkozdt3cYwC by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:54:49Z
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@shoulderdemon @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore it's just, I've seen this happen many times, and every time it ended badly for the map.
(DIR) Post #AZMu73rteZfeRkhKng by shoulderdemon@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:58:40Z
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@comrade_lecter @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore I see. Fortunately that's not an experiment I plan on trying.
(DIR) Post #AZMutwL4R7NdHfePwW by leviathan@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:53:37Z
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@shoulderdemon @comrade_lecter @pigeonclub @scramblecore 1) when one comes out as a map, that is what they come out as. Contact stances are ideologies, not modifiers to mapness, and demanding to know a map’s contact stance once, and only once, one knows they’re a map, is mapmisic, as is making any expectations within that general direction.
(DIR) Post #AZMutxMAeVr2RNAoIS by leviathan@nnia.space
2023-09-02T20:55:39Z
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@shoulderdemon @comrade_lecter @pigeonclub @scramblecore 2) Anti-c extremely fucking =/= “isn’t proud, gets help, stays away from kids”. Those who demand that do not accept anti-cs who do not comply to those demands either.3) Fuck it, “coming out as pro-c isn’t safe” for the same reason as “coming out as a nazi isn’t safe”.And again, pro-c =/= pro-c map, anti-c =/= anti-c map, not related to mapness at all.
(DIR) Post #AZMutyMCvrThXmCLzc by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T21:07:29Z
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@leviathan @shoulderdemon @pigeonclub @scramblecore sudden comeback of suppressed memories from 2019 about a particular drama.
(DIR) Post #AZMuyzmX3yKHPTuGhc by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-09-02T21:08:24Z
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@shoulderdemon @leviathan @pigeonclub @scramblecore good. Don't.