Post AZ6E6LP5fPfvwDqBfs by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
(DIR) More posts by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
(DIR) Post #AZ5Z4VofsyrfX4obo0 by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T12:02:20Z
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Congratulations to Iran and Al Qaeda. After threats of terror against Denmark, the Danish government today presented legislation which — if passed by parliament — will limit freedom of speech and punish “indecent behavior towards religious objects” with up to two years in prison.Earlier this year, an Iranian woman set fire to the Quran in Copenhagen as a protest against the hideous Iranian regime which has committed a plethora of human rights violations.…1/2
(DIR) Post #AZ5Z4Wf8jupe9nMVaC by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T12:07:57Z
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While I myself do not have any desire for offending any religion, I still find it absolutely insane, that a free country like Denmark should punish someone for protesting a religion, if that someone feels her religion has been abused to oppress people in another country.And I strongly believe, caving in to threats from terrorists sets a seriously dangerous precedent for Denmark.2/2Source. https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/regeringen-vil-sende-koranafbraendere-bag-tremmer
(DIR) Post #AZ5Z4XPDyZhASivJPk by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T12:12:39Z
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@randahl I guess you will not be surprised to learn I disagree. In my view it is not "protesting a religion" but "inciting violence", and I am fine with that not being allowed.
(DIR) Post #AZ5a3RQWouN5aEZfge by Dingsextrem@mas.to
2023-08-25T12:23:38Z
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@anderspuck @randahl i think it is a huge difference if an iranian woman or a right-wing den (denmarkian?) sets a Quran on fire.(And i see it is a problem of legislation, it focuses on the deed, not the motivation)
(DIR) Post #AZ5b4By1ssXTscALyK by richlv@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T12:34:56Z
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@anderspuck @randahlHow is it inciting violence?
(DIR) Post #AZ5bEATyG9IIAdraYi by madies@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T12:36:43Z
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@anderspuck @randahl Agreed, Anders. I believe the provocations were already illegal by existing laws that our police simply did not enforce.This is probably a nod to islamist dictatorships and as such I dislike it, but - the rules were already in place in Denmarkistan.
(DIR) Post #AZ5bw6WILxhqcftuMq by waffles@mastodon.nl
2023-08-25T12:44:40Z
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@anderspuck @randahl I think we should take serious legal issue with the extremism & extremists that are behind the Koran burnings, but the burning itself should not be inherently forbidden. If the pure burning of a book incites violence then the issue is that those being incited are too easily incitable.Anyhow, I propose a new guideline that desacrating religious symbols should be inclusive, if you burn a Koran, also burn a bible. All religions are silly.
(DIR) Post #AZ5cQS40onKm7x8tZQ by JamesDBartlett3@techhub.social
2023-08-25T12:50:12Z
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@anderspuckBullshit. Inciting violence is when you say "Hey, let's all go kill those people." Burning a book is unequivocally NOT the same thing. @randahl
(DIR) Post #AZ5cdKe5i4Lqsw9yb2 by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T12:52:34Z
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@JamesDBartlett3 @randahl If you do something with the sole purpose of that leading to violence, then it is inciting violence.
(DIR) Post #AZ5dNUHME2iW5DXEVU by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T13:00:54Z
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@Dingsextrem @randahl Not necessarily. That’s what judges are for – making those judgments.
(DIR) Post #AZ5hpX1rzelIXOv21Y by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-08-25T13:50:30Z
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@anderspuck @randahl I am with Anders. Why are Korans being burnt? To provide heat? Light? Of course not!The burning of Korans being carried out is by its very nature an expression of hatred and intended to intimidate.The act is similar in intent to the KKK burning crosses.Whether you or I take offence or are intimidated is irrelevant, that some are being targeted through this behaviour IS relevant.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning
(DIR) Post #AZ5hvUy6ZHb7ss0FWa by asbjornn@fosstodon.org
2023-08-25T13:51:46Z
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@anderspuck @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl But the proposed law does not criminalize burning holy symbols with the sole porpuse of inciting violence. The proposed law criminalyzes burning holy symbols ( who is defining that list??) no matter the purpose.
(DIR) Post #AZ5jQBdEbwfcqNRENU by precariousmind@paquita.masto.host
2023-08-25T14:08:30Z
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@anderspuck @randahl inciting violence against an object.This is exactly what they punish. Burn an inanimated book with a context of not making it extensible to the followers of any religion.This is blatantly...
(DIR) Post #AZ6Brp4Etc9ngc2GrQ by mok0@mastodon.online
2023-08-25T19:27:12Z
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@anderspuck @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl But inciting violence is already illegal, we don't need a new law for that.
(DIR) Post #AZ6C7ZjnevK8m8zF8y by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T19:29:59Z
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@mok0 @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl Apparently it wasn’t illegal. 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #AZ6Cu0q0ClcCizz6ES by mok0@mastodon.online
2023-08-25T19:30:34Z
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@anderspuck @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl Furthermore, the threats come from Muslims in the Middle East. Local Muslims in Denmark mostly seem to (wisely) shrug off the provocations, they likely realize that their faith is untouched by whatever som crackpot is doing.
(DIR) Post #AZ6Cu1ZNU3uYzjDKxU by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T19:38:55Z
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@mok0 @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl I think most of them are deeply offended but obviously don’t resort to violence.
(DIR) Post #AZ6DmeaYd0LpeCobWy by AndersGottlieb@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T19:48:48Z
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@anderspuck @mok0 @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl As the threat assessment has been raised in Denmark due to these book burnings, what is more important: Peoples lives or the right to burn books publicly?
(DIR) Post #AZ6E6LP5fPfvwDqBfs by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T19:52:19Z
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@AndersGottlieb @mok0 @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl Exactly. These idiot book burners are jeopardizing the safety of everyone else.
(DIR) Post #AZ6EEZtXfn4DCM0hwe by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T19:53:51Z
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@anderspuck for research purposes I have now read the proposed law. It will be forbidden to set fire to the most essential symbolic objects of any religion.What this means is, a demonstrator can now burn the flag of a movement, a picture of a country, a religious headscarf, a priest’s gown, and The Statue of Liberty.But if he creates his own wooden figure of a man which could be interpreted as a crucifix, and burns it, that is potentially punishable by 2 years in prison.So, Anders…
(DIR) Post #AZ6EjYRd7BAFg4j2dk by mok0@mastodon.online
2023-08-25T19:59:19Z
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@anderspuck @AndersGottlieb @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl I think they should just outlaw lighting open fire on public areas, it doesn't matter whether it's a bonfire or bookburning, it's a hazard to the safety of the public and to property.
(DIR) Post #AZ6FqoclSRUTq4xZ9U by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T19:58:48Z
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@anderspuck my problems with this legislation are:1. It creates a situation were some objects who are important to religious people are protected, while other objects (such as a model of The Statue of Liberty), are not.2. It will draw A LOT of attention to the far right who will now create hundreds of happenings challenging this new law.3. Tax payers will now have to fund a large number of trials about non-violent acts, such as burning a wooden crucifix created by the demonstrator himself.
(DIR) Post #AZ6Fqr8k6WG5dpw8H2 by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T20:11:57Z
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@randahl I think as a society we should protect minorities from humiliation and bullying. This is exactly an example of what that looks like. In this case a religious minority, but I think they deserve protection too.
(DIR) Post #AZ6FqvD8y69iGe1hgm by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T20:03:28Z
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@anderspuck for anyone else interested, the entire proposed law can be found here (in Danish):https://www.justitsministeriet.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Lovforslag.pdf
(DIR) Post #AZ6GRiNzc9AFCpe4mW by JonnyFever@freespeechextremist.com
2023-08-25T20:18:52.489226Z
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@AndersGottlieb @anderspuck @mok0 @JamesDBartlett3 @randahl The Koran burnings we’re most likely fake news created by jews too foment violence.
(DIR) Post #AZ6I9AJnjoZoF7y2wy by AndersGottlieb@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T20:37:55Z
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@JonnyFever @anderspuck @mok0 @randahl @JamesDBartlett3 I guess you are joking, but if not:It is NOT fake news!It has nothing to do with Jews, but there are indicators that Russia is implicated to avoid Sweden becoming member of NATO!
(DIR) Post #AZ6KEIwbIKdaLrh4wC by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T21:00:53Z
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@anderspuck I strongly agree with that. This is also why I am proud Denmark has strong legislation against any kind of racism towards any minority group.However, when an Iranian woman burns the Quran to show her own people, that the religious Iranian regime laws have no power over her, I feel, she is the minority we need to protect.
(DIR) Post #AZ6LpwHQ6kYZ1BwQTI by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T21:19:00Z
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@randahl Why not the Muslims who feel alienated and humiliated by Paludan? The list of things that are protected against discrimination usually includes religion in addition to race, sexuality etc.
(DIR) Post #AZ6N4mfaDkZPVhszXk by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-25T21:32:49Z
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@anderspuck Muslims are protected against racism, which is why both Rasmus Paludan and the leader of The Danish Patriots have served time for acts of racism.I believe this is proof, the legal system works quite well in this regard.But as you know, the Danish legal system does not protect cultural phenomena from criticism. If I want to say “All Justin Bieber fans are idiots”, this is legal. This is why criticizing and even demeaning religions, unions, political groups, sports clubs, etc. is ok.
(DIR) Post #AZ6WrydnOrjcPoa8Ke by VikingChieftain@krigskunst.social
2023-08-25T23:22:39Z
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@anderspuck @randahl Religion, political affiliations and other opinions/beliefs can't be made equal to for instance race, sexual orientation, gender and ethnicity. The latter is not based on something that you believe is true. Muslims, Christians, Buddhists etc are not races and shouldn't be treated as such. If they should be treated special, then you should treat other opinions/beliefs the same manner. I'm sure flat-Earthers would appreciate if we didn't make fun of them.
(DIR) Post #AZ6ycYailcHtzrZxse by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T04:33:39Z
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@randahl Religion is not a race, so religious minorities are not protected via racism. I would rather say this is rather an example that these racists have found a loophole where they can say and do racist stuff without being charged because they are officially not being racist – they are exercising criticism of a cultural phenomenon. But the point is the same: Humiliating the same people.
(DIR) Post #AZ6z7MefCEKVxC75CS by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2023-08-26T04:39:05Z
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@anderspuck @randahl nu er tro jo faktisk inkluderet i racismrparagraffen, men der er jo ikke tale om at man forhåner nogle personligt ved at brænde en bog. Det er jo i sidste ende papir og tryksværte.
(DIR) Post #AZ6zVRpxa3TqyZsgaW by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T04:43:30Z
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@VikingChieftain @randahl I think it's a mistake to treat religion as an opinion. Religion is decidedly not "an opinion", because it is not based in reasoning or arguments. It is literally about faith. And no, I am not saying religion should be exempt from criticism, but in my view the book burnings are also not about that. They are just about being racist with other means.
(DIR) Post #AZ6zlGy1lJpJtgCTrM by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T04:46:20Z
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@EvilCartyen @randahl Det er nok at reducere betydningen vel meget. Det er et religiøst symbol eller artefakt.
(DIR) Post #AZ715IJoXzfjpmVBIG by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2023-08-26T05:01:02Z
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@anderspuck @randahl jeg er med på at det er en bog der tillægges stor betydning, men det er stadig en bog. Der er ikke nogen der sådan ægte tager skade af at den bliver brændt, og der findes milliarder af kopier.Det er jo også bemærkelsesværdigt at vores udenrigsminister decideret siger, at det handler om Danmarks sikkerhed og om alliancer. Så det er jo delvist under trussel om vold fra ekstremister at vi ændrer vores lovgivning. Under pres fra nogle lande som vi ikke har skyggen af værdifællessskab med. Nu er formuleringen af lovforslaget jo ret snæver, og ikke noget jeg som sådan ikke kan leve med, men jeg synes det er principielt skørt at vi accepterer at det er mere end papir og blæk og accepterer at lande der hugger hovederne af deres egne borgere og overvåger og undertrykker kvinder skal agere som vores moralske kompas ift. religion.
(DIR) Post #AZ71gfBmTiy1TpYyx6 by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T05:07:54Z
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@EvilCartyen @randahl Hvis vi gerne vil leve i en globaliseret verden, er det nok bare et vilkår vi må acceptere, at vi må udvise kulturel empati.
(DIR) Post #AZ72135nJdE1PIU36m by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2023-08-26T05:11:39Z
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@anderspuck @randahl går det også den anden vej? 🙂 Kan vi få Taleban og Saudi Arabien til et holde op med at behandle kvinder som ejendele?Generelt plejer man ikke at blande sig i andre landes indre anliggender. Men vi lader åbenbart ekstremister diktere vores.
(DIR) Post #AZ73Y4S9NUR98ZFaKW by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T05:28:51Z
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@EvilCartyen @randahl Man kan også sige at vi lader os selv tage som gidsler i et spil mellem to grupper af ekstremister. Må indrømme at jeg er dødtræt af at Paludan skal få lov til at tegne billedet i udlandets opfattelse af Danmark.
(DIR) Post #AZ74GLN5pwQGLmzo36 by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2023-08-26T05:36:45Z
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@anderspuck @randahl jo, det kan du have ret i, men hvorfor tror man i udlandet at Paludan repræsenterer andet end sig selv?Uanset, så håber jeg det er sidste gang vi skal lovgive på baggrund af religion. Vores samfund OG vel nærmest alle fremskridt indenfor personlig frihed siden renæssancen er sket på TRODS af religion.
(DIR) Post #AZ76nW7R6BCt9DcP5c by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-08-26T06:05:10Z
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@anderspuck @VikingChieftain @randahl Again Anders is spot on. Religion transcends logic.It is also something that people are overwhelmingly born into. In many places of the world one can pretty much tell someone’s religion by the colour of their skin.I’ve already made the point that people aren’t burning books for heat or light, apparently it also has to be pointed out that books aren’t being burnt as a form of intellectual debate!
(DIR) Post #AZ7DbJ9mAKXr9Mq1uC by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-26T07:21:21Z
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@anderspuck I am sorry, Anders, but your statement is incorrect. Attached is the Danish penal code section 266 b which explicitly states, mocking a religious minority is considered racism.
(DIR) Post #AZ7FaErCriYBQylpA0 by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T07:43:43Z
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@randahl Well, clearly they are outlawing something that wasn’t outlawed before.
(DIR) Post #AZ7HJzNQqvT0hLDso4 by tanyakaroli@expressional.social
2023-08-26T06:28:16Z
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@randahl @anderspuck Danish tax payers are currently paying for the protection of Rasmus Paludan, a raging racist who seeks to provoke violence and division in society. It is not a question of free speech. There are plenty of ways to discuss and criticize religion or culture or politics that do not include burning books. Book-burning carries clear connotations of suppression of thought and oppression of minorities.
(DIR) Post #AZ7IG345Ib30vprGSG by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-26T08:13:37Z
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@anderspuck what do you think of the proportions?If someone who disagrees with Christianity carves a wooden figurine, calls it Jesus, and then destroys it, that person can now be punished with up to two years in prison.At the same time, a violent drunk who slaps someone in the face will often be sentenced to a fine or 3 months behind bars.In short: Violence against human beings: short sentences. Violence against a small piece of wood: up to two years in prison.
(DIR) Post #AZ7QDLXewdBN0Aujg0 by VikingChieftain@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T09:42:40Z
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@anderspuck @randahl A belief can turn into faith, but it doesn't start as such. Believing in a religion is the same as having the opinion that the teachings it gives are true.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinionhttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/opinionWhen you give opinions/beliefs a special status and write laws to protect them, you give them a protection against criticism.And as for burning books and other cultural things. It's what extremists do and have done throughout history. I do not condone it whatsoever.
(DIR) Post #AZ7U3Ow5s1GcRur9KC by paelse@mastodon.online
2023-08-26T09:29:59Z
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@randahl @anderspuck Nu har det jo visse konnotationer at plante et brændende kors i det offentlige rum.Jeg er enig med Anders i, at koranafbrænderne bare skal lukkes ned. Men jeg er dybt uenig i regeringens bevæggrunde for at gøre det. Det havder ikke om eksport og udenrigspolitik, men om at man ikke skal gå rundt og - i overført betydning - spytte folk i ansigtet bare for at promovere sig selv.
(DIR) Post #AZ7U3PrARov9IvYjHk by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-26T09:51:29Z
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@paelse Brændende objekter kan signalere alt muligt. F.eks. brændte skotterne i gamle dage et kors som signal til, at der var krig, og klanerne skulle samles. Denne skik fandt bl.a. anvendelse under Jacobitternes oprør i 1745, og blev sidst anvendt i 1820 til at samle 800 klanfolk for at beskytte en klanleder mod optøjer i byen Elgin.Det er meningsløst at lave love om, hvordan vi behandler ting, vi selv ejer.@anderspuck
(DIR) Post #AZ7U3QY3sLERRxcz8y by paelse@mastodon.online
2023-08-26T10:04:12Z
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@randahl @anderspuck Det kan godt være du ejer bogen. Men du ejer ikke ordene og budskabet i den.Hvis du reducerer handlingen til at dreje sig om det fysiske objekt, afviser du også den hensigt, som ifølge koranafbrænderne selv er den egentlige årsag til handlingen.
(DIR) Post #AZ7U3RCTS5YfTIXG8O by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-08-26T10:25:46Z
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@randahl Jeg tror også der er en pointe i at det juridisk set er mere end lovteksten, som en dommer dømmer ud fra. De skal også se på lovens intention, således som den er beskrevet i forarbejderne til loven. Så jeg er ikke så bekymret om alle de her eksempler på ting, der teknisk set kunne læses ind i lovteksten, for intentionen med loven er ret klar. @paelse
(DIR) Post #AZ7UCRbbJZD9KoaClk by randahl@mastodon.social
2023-08-26T10:27:28Z
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@anderspuck den pointe anerkender jeg.@paelse
(DIR) Post #AZ7jewpAKtXrZwyewq by 52fighters@rcsocial.net
2023-08-26T13:20:36Z
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@anderspuck @randahl How about they just call it a crime to burn things without a burn permit? You can keep the law religiously neutral, and should, when possible.
(DIR) Post #AZEmVWVOTn83Jae8dE by JamesDBartlett3@techhub.social
2023-08-29T22:55:31Z
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@anderspuck Let's say that you observe me burning a book. Unless I actually throw that burning book at someone, you can't say that my intent was to incite violence.