Post AYvLkSWXAz1iXnq3PM by jeroen@secluded.ch
(DIR) More posts by jeroen@secluded.ch
(DIR) Post #AYu9b1WanNhPasdlOC by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-19T19:04:45Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
At the Voting Village, Susan Greenhalgh called Internet voting "the Theranos of Voting" - something scientists agree isn't possible to do properly, but vendors try to sell anyway. Our panel explored the question "If I can shop online, why can't I vote online?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RiIRGPMYc
(DIR) Post #AYu9b2KDorOk4nrOkK by alison@mastodon.online
2023-08-19T21:47:14Z
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@mattblaze So it's safe to file your taxes online but they can't do voting?
(DIR) Post #AYu9b3EaRIU6tcEPbM by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-19T19:06:54Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
(In addition to the Theranos analogy, online voting reminds me of Groundhog's day - a bad dream that keeps repeating itself, no matter how often we knock it down.)
(DIR) Post #AYu9b3JCAAAf7uO5mi by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-19T23:58:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@alison Online systems are compromised all the time. Online bank fraud and tax fraud, and identity theft that enables them, are common problems. The difference is that, because neither banking nor tax payments are anonymous, it's generally possible to either insure or roll back fraudulent transactions.One a vote is cast, on the other hand, it can't be traced back to the voter and corrected later if irregularities occurred. A compromise of an online voting system could cause irreversible harm.
(DIR) Post #AYu9b4Ou6QKcVu4AK0 by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-08-20T00:05:04.045174Z
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Estonia has been doing it since 2005, but their citizens have what is essentially a smartcard to vote with AIUI.
(DIR) Post #AYvLhf8RpXxyn0EsLY by karlauerbach@sfba.social
2023-08-19T19:08:13Z
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@mattblaze I'm of the view that in the vastness of resources and time it would be possible to do Internet voting. But the costs and procedures (including oversight staff) and specialized equipment would be prohibitive.In other words, intellectually possible in a world of infinite resources and voter patience, but as a practical matter, impossible.
(DIR) Post #AYvLhfwQphwtI1cnFw by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-19T19:21:28Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@karlauerbach No. There are fundamental problems that go beyond engineering.
(DIR) Post #AYvLhrMMNeE0hcq9hI by karlauerbach@sfba.social
2023-08-19T20:16:09Z
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@mattblaze My imagined far too expensive solution would involve one-time-use voting tablets, that are brought to the voter via a secure chain of custody, used by the voter in a secure voting booth (brought along with the one-time tablet) - in essence bringing a voting precinct to each voter. Auditing would be possible a statistical cross-check of the returned tablets data. Of course there would have to be procedures and trusted people to assure that things were handled properly and that voters were free from coercion.Basically this would be similar to a precinct-goes-to-voter-system - the "internet" part isn't even needed. We kinda have that here in our county where for people who need it our voting clerks will send out a special voting center van, with normal precinct staffing and physical and procedural protections.Not cheap, not practically feasible.
(DIR) Post #AYvLhsDtAd2jNdsu8G by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-19T20:16:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@karlauerbach right. There’s nothing “online” about what you described.
(DIR) Post #AYvLjSj8w0H0sxGFSC by Selena@ivoor.eu
2023-08-20T00:05:39Z
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@mattblaze @alison My take on it is that either you choose to trust the system or you don't: if you don't than no amount of re-telling will convince you that Trump lost, if you do than reasonable precautions are enough.
(DIR) Post #AYvLjTW407PBKg9Jho by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-20T00:09:26Z
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@Selena @alison It's absolutely possible to build trustworthy voting systems, even out of untrustworthy components. But it requires that there be a reliable artifact of the voters' ballot choices (such as a paper ballot), which online voting systems, by definition, don't have.This is a well understood area in which a great deal of progress has been made in the last decade. Google "Risk Limiting Audits" for details.
(DIR) Post #AYvLjVPkwXY3DhDJ9U by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-20T00:16:12Z
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@Selena @alison I talked a little bit about this in my opening remarks at the Voting Village last weekend.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewp8i6WkqBI
(DIR) Post #AYvLkSWXAz1iXnq3PM by jeroen@secluded.ch
2023-08-20T05:47:10Z
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@mattblaze and guess what Switzerland is attempting again even though the software was proven insecure.... https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/government-gives-green-light-to-e-voting-in-2023-national-elections/48739092 money and lobby has already voted (and somebody is getting paid to provide all that...)
(DIR) Post #AYvLkhuTyE60GQ9tJo by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-20T05:48:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeroen Sigh.
(DIR) Post #AYvlXoh42GaQLXOcgC by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-20T17:04:23Z
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@HcInfosec @jeroen Yes, and every technical expert who has seriously studied online voting as come to the same conclusion about the risks, because there are fundamental problems and requirements that preclude building an Internet voting system sufficient for civil elections.It's not that scientists don't think Internet voting would be nice. Just as physicists don't think perpetual motion machines wouldn't be terrific. It's just that they understand fundamental reasons we can't make them.
(DIR) Post #AYvlXpXAuWGox9mEu8 by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-20T17:09:20Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@HcInfosec @jeroen You want an Internet voting system? You have two choices. One is to relax some of the basic requirements and civil rights associated with voting (at least in the US), such as the secret ballot. The other option is to have elections where we can never be sure who actually won, and that are vulnerable to disruption by anyone connected to the Internet.Neither option seems great.
(DIR) Post #AYvlXtpOwhE6GqKqrw by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-08-20T17:17:40Z
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@HcInfosec @jeroen And these are because of FUNDAMENTAL properties of software-based systems and the requirements of voting, These are not things we can engineer our way out of with better technology or by working harder. We'd have to either change the requirements for democratic elections or accept potentially unbounded uncertainty in election outcomes, no matter what technical advances happen.