Post AYqeeTdp2EUbbyJDbE by tiago@social.skewed.de
(DIR) More posts by tiago@social.skewed.de
(DIR) Post #AYqah2dfUDh6uuCjD6 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T06:50:19Z
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There's something fundamental about mastodon that bothers me.The whole point of free software is that the *user* should be in control, not the developer, or even the community.With Mastodon, it's the reverse.If I want to quote a tweet, enable full text search, list posts by popularity, I can't. Because the developers and the community don't want me to.The source code is there, and I could code this myself for my own instance, but there are no forks out there that do it. I still think it's a matter of time for those to appear, but this lack of customization points to a stifling attitude by the developers.This attitude is fundamentally against the spirit of free software and the decentralized internet.#mastodon #freesoftware
(DIR) Post #AYqbnuCLMozqigGCRc by felwert@mstdn.social
2023-08-18T07:02:27Z
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@tiago People said the same thing about GNOME with regards to customization. I don't think free software inherently puts the user first. But there are in fact a number of platforms, clients and third-party tools that allow what you describe. Phanpy renders quote toots, there's tootfinder, firefish is a valid Mastodon contender, etc. And eventually this could very well have an influence on upstream Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #AYqc80EYdV7REMsYsq by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T07:06:23Z
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@felwert GNOME allows for open ended customization via extensions.Where are the extensions for mastodon?
(DIR) Post #AYqcchKMylUtZTEZe4 by felwert@mstdn.social
2023-08-18T07:11:56Z
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@tiago but GNOME also discourages extensions, which they regard as (and are in fact) ugly hacks. And SaaS often means that you have to work with the software your provider runs. I think alternative clients like Elk, Phanpy etc. could count as quite far-reaching modifications of your Mastodon experience. But sure, anything that requires server-side changes depends on you running a patched version, or using an alternative Fedi platform. Why does it have to be Mastodon™?
(DIR) Post #AYqeLIJ8wsT6xWUPnE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T07:31:13Z
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@felwert If mastodon only “discouraged” modifications, the situation would be quite different.Anyway, I don't follow your argument. Even if GNOME were in violation of the spirit of free software, that would be a reason to criticize GNOME, not absolve mastodon. Mastodon is not only SaaS. People can run their own instance. Of course instances can choose whatever features and software they want. But with mastodon you are constrained even if you run your own instance.Finally, the solution does not have to implemented upstream. In fact, this is my only hope at this point: that forks will appear. In the end, this is the main robustness of free software.But nevertheless, the criticism of upstream (and parts of the community who support this attitude) is still valid.
(DIR) Post #AYqePClXUmyUvfdVeS by Athavariel@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-08-18T07:31:45Z
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@tiago Quote posts are on the roadmap - be patient. https://joinmastodon.org/roadmap
(DIR) Post #AYqeeTdp2EUbbyJDbE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T07:34:41Z
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@Athavariel The only possible reason why such a trivial feature is only in the "planning" stage is because the plan is to implement in such a contrived and convoluted way that it will render it useless.
(DIR) Post #AYqetKpM5TxacRmvwW by Athavariel@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-08-18T07:37:09Z
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@tiago okay
(DIR) Post #AYqfBv7xrZLOPlM3t2 by sminnee@mastodon.nz
2023-08-18T07:40:41Z
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@tiago waiting for someone to develop the fork and release it for interested people to host their own instance, is IMO in keeping with the spirit of free software, which has always been “anything you want… as long as you can code it”I’m also unsure where mastodonians really embrace the spirit of the purely free & open internet, as it’s been shown to have a lot of abuse vectors, and avoiding abuse has taken a priority. The antipathy toward webcrawling is a big example.
(DIR) Post #AYqfTLPhNxFMrVxTTE by grs@infosec.exchange
2023-08-18T07:43:52Z
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@tiago Time and larger install base are the things that whittle away opinionated design choices like that. It'll happen eventually I'm sure.
(DIR) Post #AYqgSLf34yivIKE8TA by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T07:54:55Z
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@sminnee Your second paragraph essentially concedes my point.The idea that a free and open internet is not the priority because of potential “abuse” is in its essence an authoritarian stance.It's would be an explicit subversion of the spirit of free software and a free internet.The idea that *webcrawling* is a form of abuse is, quite frankly, utterly baffling.(BTW: the ability to fork is the bare minimum for something to be considered free software — which mastodon certainly is. But if barriers are put to this, then they clearly go against the central spirit of the thing.)
(DIR) Post #AYqgtTXPtw29Xjan5s by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T07:59:47Z
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@lispi314 These are valid points, and I guess that mastodon is demonstrating that centralization is not a binary feature.I only considered using it since I was able to host my own instance.In the end, we only have autonomy for what we host ourselves.
(DIR) Post #AYqhQVHcQwHaVnx5ns by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T08:05:46Z
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@grs I agree — however this also drives many people away at the moment, because the experience is quite poor.It's a huge missed opportunity, considering the twitter implosion.
(DIR) Post #AYqhcCxsMnrnAoIZpA by grs@infosec.exchange
2023-08-18T08:07:52Z
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@tiago Very much agreed. I do miss "quote tweeting" myself as its handy when making a commentary about a thing you wish to share. However, I've also seen it used in negative ways like the devs say is their reason for not having it. Overall, given the more civil nature of mastodon, and may that long continue, I think that fear might be overblown.
(DIR) Post #AYqjARHJkuJLMlHLPs by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T08:25:13Z
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@grs Everything can be used negatively. And there's no actual evidence that suggests that quotes are somehow “more negative” than replies, or anything else. Those that believe this do so based on anecdotes, pure faith or peer influence.I think the difference in discourse between Mastodon and Twitter boils down to a difference of around 400 million people — not whether we have quotes or indexing.
(DIR) Post #AYql3XcbyL6ovB4rY0 by grs@infosec.exchange
2023-08-18T08:46:25Z
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@tiago Yeah I have to find myself agreeing with you on all points there. Here's hoping that feature is introduced at some point because I know I definitely miss it.I'm unsure whether we'd reach the mass amount of people of Twitter, and part of me honestly wishes we never reach that. For one, it would be hell on instance admins, and secondly, it feels really nice right now.
(DIR) Post #AYqoASJMPlj8LB3se0 by sminnee@mastodon.nz
2023-08-18T09:21:15Z
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@tiago webcrawling isn’t abuse but it can enable it - a lot of Twitter roles monitor search keywords, for example.A lot of mastodon’s original spade work came from communities under attack on Twitter wanting a safer space, notably the trans community.Framing a concern for abuse as authoritarian is hysterical and ridiculous. You can disagree with the trade-off made, but get a grip.
(DIR) Post #AYqoOt7bWz7HXtRd4q by heapwolf@fosstodon.org
2023-08-18T09:23:54Z
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@tiago you might interested in Socket runtime — https://github.com/socketsupply/socket
(DIR) Post #AYqpFERJW60Kiicgoi by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-18T09:33:21Z
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@sminnee I'm not critiquing the concerns but the countermeasures.And yes, they show authoritarian tendencies, for the reasons I have explained.
(DIR) Post #AYsyDF47VSMJzBouem by alice@bidule.menf.in
2023-08-19T10:23:17.698449Z
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@tiago I think your post is based on a false assumption. This is not "the developers" hindering you in your liberty as a user here. The developers have so far been following (sometimes reluctantly) the voice of users. Mastodon was not built to be a popularity context, it was not built either to give tools to people wanting to exploit data one way or another. This is not a goldmine, this is a place to live and to talk freely. Many harassed communities have found a refuge on it, full text search would certainly be interesting to curious explorers, but it would also be a deadly tool for trolls to target people. You can perfectly run a full-text search fork on your instance but Fedi won't federate with it.Free software empowers you to do whatever you want that is *technically feasible with software*, I think you are confusing a technical issue with a political one. No, Mastodon doesn't have a built-in way for you to impose your choices to other users, but surely you don't think that's a reasonable feature to want for a social network ?
(DIR) Post #AYvHjipmeIwT1YEfIm by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-20T13:11:27Z
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@khinsen I don't think you're right about this. The free software movement recognized very early on that many users are not programmers. There's nothing new here.Nevertheless the argument has always been that such users also benefit from software freedom, since they can ask or petition others to modify the program for them. And they can participate in other ways, like testing and offering design feedback.Free software allows for groups of people to organize — where only some of the know how to program — so that they all achieve what they want .This is precisely the opposite of being a “consumer” as you imply.GNU/Linux distributions are good examples of this, and there are many others.
(DIR) Post #AYvItMhts7zjFQi5ia by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-20T13:24:21Z
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@alice Having full search, the ability to link to other posts, etc, on my own instance is imposing on others? What an absurdity.Note that google and others are already indexing everything. It's a silly design decision, since it's a technically impossibility to have your cake and eat it.If you make public posts on the internet, the entire world can see it and index it. If you want your information to be private, don't make it public.Finally, you claim these restrictions exist due to feedback from users. This is both factually wrong and misses my point.It's wrong because certainly it's not based on the opinion of the majority of users, which grew by orders of magnitude since these choices were made.And it misses the point because even if, hypothetically, the majority would wish for something, the minority would still have he right to customize their software.You're right that instances can choose to federate with whom they wish, but this isn't what I'm talking about. At the moment I can't activate simple features even if it meant others would choose not to federate with me.
(DIR) Post #AYwoUcdWtuYD6Vs4wa by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-21T06:53:13Z
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@khinsen I'm sorry, but this is completely not true. Users request new features, bug fixes and improvements all the time. This is totally commonplace in free software.The users that you describe that don't even envision such a thing are users of *proprietary* software.
(DIR) Post #AYxH2aymMlwoWhnZWC by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-21T12:13:05Z
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@khinsen I don't think that we need a new definition of “user” simply because some of them are not aware of the capabilities they have.The mechanisms for non-technical users to participate already exist. What we need is to improve awareness and expand the mechanisms themselves.
(DIR) Post #AYxRZVuBFgN3t3z01Q by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-21T14:11:03Z
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@khinsen I disagree completely. I think your position is a bit condescending, as if most people are too stupid to understand what free software is about.As with any issue of freedom, politics, morals, etc, having people understanding the fundamentals is *everything*.This is not just about some head-to-head market share competition with Microsoft and Apple.If people couldn't understand what free software is and why it's important, then the whole free software movement would be pointless.But of course I don't agree with your premise: normal people can understand this stuff without any problems. It's not difficult at all.
(DIR) Post #AYxeeBISbF00p6taLI by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-21T16:37:35Z
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@khinsen Even if that were true, changing the fundamentals principles of the free software movement to accommodate a supposed limited attention span of people seems illogical to me.Outreach, organization, communication, and education are always challenges of any political or social movement — specially if they go against the grain or established power and attitudes.We need to factor in difficulties in these areas, but we don't *begin* by throwing away the fundamental principles, or hiding them from view. They should always be at the forefront.Anyway, this discussion has veered away significantly from my initial point which was about mastodon imposing constraints on users that go against the spirit of free software.
(DIR) Post #AYxngYCjIf682KQ5Ro by SReyCoyrehourcq@social.sciences.re
2023-08-21T18:05:25Z
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@khinsen @tiago Actually i dont understand your first point, for me without mastodon there is no alternative for twitter user for non tech user. Even if mastodon don't have all features that people want IMO we already gain some new liberty/free during the switch twitter/mastodon no ?
(DIR) Post #AYxngZ0MK8nSWFdinw by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-08-21T18:18:52Z
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@SReyCoyrehourcq @khinsen Of course mastodon is a better alternative than twitter with respect to software freedom. I never suggested otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AcIB6pmE4CHBxT5NCq by danieldekay@masto.ai
2023-11-29T07:51:48Z
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@tiago Authoritarian in the sense that someone, or a group, decides on something that they believe is better, and nominee else can change it easily?In software development I guess one thing is always a given: limited resources. You have to make trade offs all the time. Since Mastodon is software this applies, but it is also a platform. Most users don’t use Mastodon the software, but only the someone else provides you them (using the software). It makes the FOSS argument a bit different.
(DIR) Post #AcIBJqVodzeg0GcAAS by danieldekay@masto.ai
2023-11-29T07:54:12Z
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@tiago And Mastodon is not the fediverse. You are disregarding all the other alternatives out there. But I agree: extensions enable software architecture that doesn’t require forking so much anymore. Friendica, Hubzilla, … come from a different philosophy, and they all offer extensions.