Post AYduQW8nJS72NfZ9Ps by clintliddick@hachyderm.io
(DIR) More posts by clintliddick@hachyderm.io
(DIR) Post #AYdSVNhRKKcivrImdk by MikeDunnAuthor@kolektiva.social
2023-08-11T22:25:47Z
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(DIR) Post #AYdSVOTeR5BjLNrHmq by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-11T22:47:20Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor The rich are satisfied... they're already rich!
(DIR) Post #AYdTE8Dxi8tty1qvSa by MikeDunnAuthor@kolektiva.social
2023-08-11T22:55:22Z
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@mayonesa If they were truly satisfied with their wealth, they'd stop trying to get more; stop lobbying for tax cuts; stop lobbying against benefits for the poor and working class.
(DIR) Post #AYdUCN2PlLw3HoAwVc by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-11T23:06:19Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor Benefits simply raise costs and hurt the economic outlook for all of us.To own businesses is to need to keep generating wealth to pacify shareholders and pay for all those rising taxes.What you suggest you want is the cause of what you bemoan.
(DIR) Post #AYdV2ZgLzsepYlkX20 by MikeDunnAuthor@kolektiva.social
2023-08-11T23:15:44Z
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@mayonesa This is why capitalism needs to be abolished and the bosses and business class need to be abolished.
(DIR) Post #AYdV8Z6l2pDhW5xMC8 by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-11T23:16:50Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor Sounds more like you are saying that shareholders and taxes should be abolished.In my view, capitalism is just economics... all of our problems come from political manipulation of the economy.
(DIR) Post #AYdcUU3FE1ANsqiBf6 by clintliddick@hachyderm.io
2023-08-12T00:39:11Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor capital is only one economic system that favors those with capital with many vehicles to use their advantage at very low cost. Yes the “haves” have always been better off, but it’s not a foregone conclusion that we need to craft every single institution to their benefit
(DIR) Post #AYdjsZGMCS24fyHBeC by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-12T02:02:01Z
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@clintliddick @MikeDunnAuthor If they have always been better off, it is unlikely that institutions crafted to their benefit are responsible. Most likely, we are simply eliminating inefficiencies of fighting people with the resources to get their way.
(DIR) Post #AYduQW8nJS72NfZ9Ps by clintliddick@hachyderm.io
2023-08-12T04:00:12Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor feudalism was a system where even wealthy merchants had little benefit from institutions and couldn’t take advantage of their wealth (except for creature comforts) without the grace of the nobility. We’ve now combined the nobility who craft the rules with the ultra wealthy who only seek ways to increase their own wealth.
(DIR) Post #AYeewkMwXmKjfPUSBc by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-12T12:41:28Z
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@clintliddick @MikeDunnAuthor I like the idea of sequestering wealth. This keeps it from being an obsession of the society at large.
(DIR) Post #AYeqSs9iEBm4Zxp4c4 by twizzt@sauropods.win
2023-08-12T14:50:30Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor My dyslexia plays interesting tricks on me sometimes. I first read this as church rather than rich. Oddly enough, both work.
(DIR) Post #AYesKxVscmq0mqXtrM by MikeDunnAuthor@kolektiva.social
2023-08-12T15:11:28Z
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@mayonesa Capitalism is defined as a system in which the business owners pay workers less than the value of their labor, and then keep the excess as profits. That is inherently wrong and why capitalism must be abolished. Along with its abolish, shareholders would necessarily cease to exist, as well.
(DIR) Post #AYeyQd1MKJnkh4MAF6 by MikeDunnAuthor@kolektiva.social
2023-08-12T16:19:44Z
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@mayonesa @clintliddick This is exactly the problem: a few people sequestering all the wealth is the reason the rest of society is angry, desperate and, quite often, sick or dying.
(DIR) Post #AYfU7ab8JAtAD53SKW by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-12T22:14:53Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor Capitalism simply means economics. Supply-demand rules, basically. Owners pay workers what the market rewards. If they do not, they have trouble getting workers. Capitalism brought us out of the ages of poverty; socialism returns us to them.
(DIR) Post #AYfUBcLrjJDoo7pnF2 by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-12T22:15:36Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor @clintliddick Except that, if you look at the math, this is not the case.There is plenty of wealth to go around, but costs are artificially raised by government.In addition, the ranks of the super-wealthy have beeen swelled by government programs that pay out trillions to contractors.
(DIR) Post #AYfUxWMxH8oc9ZBbHM by MikeDunnAuthor@kolektiva.social
2023-08-12T22:24:09Z
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@mayonesa @clintliddick True, there is plenty of wealth. But the main reason for the wealth gap is capitalist exploitation: bosses paying workers a fraction of the value of their labor and pocketing the rest. Secondarily there are all the government interventions (tax cuts, tax write offs, subsidies, etc. ) that help them get richer and that exacerbate the wealth gap. These are paid for primarily by the working classes through their taxes and at the sacrifice of government interventions that could benefit the working classAnd then there are the cops and military, who primarily serve the interests of the rich, protecting their property and investments, again subsidized primarily on the banks of the poor and working class. And then there are all the so called externalities (eg pollution, climate crisis, habitat destruction, public health crises) caused by their businesses, that they pay nothing to mitigate, but that allows them to make even more money.
(DIR) Post #AYfWOICe9YwxzSh5MG by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-12T22:40:18Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Benefits simply raise costs and hurt the economic outlook for all of us.Depends on who pays them. Working people spend money much faster that the rich, which is good for the capitalist economy anyways since it depends on a growing demand to sell it's stuff to.
(DIR) Post #AYfWblXmNMzqko0Fiy by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-12T22:42:44Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor In my view, capitalism is just economics...But then capitalism is everything and nothing, from hunter gatherers to the USSRall of our problems come from political manipulation of the economy.But they cannot be divorced, as they are one and the same. Economics is nothing else but the distribution (and tge distribution method) of resources, which is inherently political
(DIR) Post #AYfWw1ApyQwF1MvfLE by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-12T22:46:24Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Capitalism simply means economics.But again, that's every system ever: everything and nothing.Supply-demand rules, basically. Owners pay workers what the market rewards. If they do not, they have trouble getting workers.Except, in aggregate, that never happens in the real world, as workers always need and employer to sell their labour to in order to get the money to survive.socialism returns us to them.That's just a blank lie
(DIR) Post #AYfrNPt4CDzSZPxWds by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T02:35:27Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Economics is what it is. It is hard to see capitalism as a "system" since it merely means the absence of a command economy.Workers and employer need each other. Taxes raise costs and create all of the problems you are seeing here.Europe is broke. How's Russia doing? China is broke. It's all ending for the socialists.
(DIR) Post #AYfrQp2x6uGpTBCtqS by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T02:36:04Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor I agree with your first sentence. Capitalism is just economics... it has always been with us.Economics describes how wealth distributes itself. Command economies force wealth redistribution for political reasons, then collapse.
(DIR) Post #AYfrSSESu8UZI8N1JQ by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T02:36:22Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor All costs are passed on down to the consumer.The more you tax, the less your currency is worth and therefore, the less you can buy.
(DIR) Post #AYfrYd31bbueZYxn9c by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T02:37:29Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor I might also add this: money spent by the poor tends to go to a few businesses that are at the end of value-addition chains.Wealthier people can fund things at the start.It is good to have wealthy people. The features on their luxury cars today will be on normal cars in a few years.
(DIR) Post #AYgJThoRGD4QcQa7do by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T07:50:19Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor All costs are passed on down to the consumer.The consumer has a limited budget anyway. Buisnesses rarely raise prices over taxation, and usually just cut costs to remain competitive, including people's salaries.The more you tax, the less your currency is worth and therefore, the less you can buy.But that is ahistorical. Western goverments have slashed taxation and regulations for the past half a century with the development of neoliberalism, and what followed was a rise of poverty.On a purely face to face basis, if one looks at history it seems like the exact opposite of your statement is true
(DIR) Post #AYgL7kCxsBUHaOi28e by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T08:08:45Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Economics is what it is. It is hard to see capitalism as a "system" since it merely means the absence of a command economy.It doesn't. Caoitalism is a soecific economic system based on the owner-worker dycotomy. It's very distinct from what preceeded it, both from a feudal or a gift economy, which neither were planned or had the owner-worker conflict described above.Workers and employer need each other. Only because the employers are the ones owning the means of production.Taxes raise costs and create all of the problems you are seeing here.Taxes made by who's goverment? Setting aside that is the buisness owners who basically have the goverments of the west by the balls and get to greatly influence taxation, focusing entirely on taxation is reductive to the point of obscuring the underlying issues. Worker exploitation, fall of the standars of living, inflation, unemployment... you could have a 0% tax rate on everything and they won't go away.How's Russia doing? China is broke. It's all ending for the socialists.Neither of these countries has had a socialist planned economy for at least 30 years
(DIR) Post #AYgLgpHmzAh3TCh67k by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T08:15:07Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor I might also add this: money spent by the poor tends to go to a few businesses that are at the end of value-addition chains.And? Those buisnesses still depend on others and will spend money, causing capital to circulate.Wealthier people can fund things at the start.Something the decreasingly do because financial gambling is more profitableIt is good to have wealthy people. The features on their luxury cars today will be on normal cars in a few years.Who cares about some metal box? Concentration of wealth always causes mass immiseration with higher costs on essential goods and services for everyone else
(DIR) Post #AYhDlSqdES7aqueUYC by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T18:21:01Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Capitalism is just economics. People trade goods and services for money.Taxes are what people vote on. So far, the voters have opted for bankruptcy in order to have entitlements, and that is why your money buys very little.
(DIR) Post #AYhDpUFNyIsELn9HCi by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T18:21:45Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor The consumer has a limited budget, so raising his costs is unconscionable.Western governments added more taxes than income taxes, and built up the administrative state in the 1970s, so I think you are on another timeline here.
(DIR) Post #AYhDtu71kOzfjDLTDU by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T18:22:32Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor It depends on where the capital circulates. If you are making landlords, liquor stores, and lotteries rich, that is less preferred than having people invest in tools, education, land, production, etc.
(DIR) Post #AYhX68dpS8KrOSEeWG by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T21:57:38Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Western governments added more taxes than income taxes, and built up the administrative state in the 1970s, so I think you are on another timeline here.You mean when the years during which social democracy began to crumble and neoliberalism started to privatize fucking everything? The years of Tatcher and Regan? You sure you ain't having a mandela effect moment?
(DIR) Post #AYhXmIPhViE9rbjHPc by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:05:16Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Capitalism is just economics.But that is ahistoric nonsense. Wasn't feudalism a socio-economic system? Mercantilism? Gift-based economies? Socialist planning? You just reinstated a truism that doesn't hold to the simplest scrutiny without any backing.Taxes are what people vote on. So far, the voters have opted for bankruptcy in order to have entitlements, and that is why your money buys very little.Has any of it happened though? Both the federal reserve and european central bank are unelected institutions the voters have 0 input on, people in the west haven't had influence on economic policies for decades at this point.And then, what entitlements? Most if not the totality of post-covid money went to buisnesses and financial institutions.
(DIR) Post #AYhYD7H12MPD8FSKG0 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:10:07Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor having people invest in tools, education, land, productionYou mean stuff rich people don't invest in because financial market gambling is more profitable? Not only that, but expecially the lower strata of the population will spend money in education and buying stuff (demand which stimulates production) because they have to in order to reduce try reduce their immiseration. The first to attempt to have access to better paying jobs, the second because they will try to acquire first stuff that makes their life better.
(DIR) Post #AYhYkJhlq0dPFBnkgK by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:16:07Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor These are democratic leaders, not dictators. The opposition stayed busy, and many people did not anticipate how malevolent the administrative state would become.
(DIR) Post #AYhYwFLLscOfBx0ITY by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:18:16Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Wealthier people need to constantly generate wealth to keep above the taxes. Therefore, they reinvest.You seem to be talking about speculators, which are bad news, but they are legitimized by regulations and the voters have slept on that one.
(DIR) Post #AYhYwZKJaBS1AWfkdU by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:18:20Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor How has that anything to do with my reply above?
(DIR) Post #AYhZ37NtrxYaXDTLai by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:19:31Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Economics describes how markets work. Capitalism has markets; feudalism had limited markets, and was replaced by mercantilism, a type of state-regulated market.The COVID money was a debacle but they are rounding up the abusers now and jailing them. I thought it was a bad idea, but clearly SOMETHING was needed to keep the economy going after the panic.
(DIR) Post #AYhZ75dgIiLiHOkQLI by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:20:14Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Wealthier people need to constantly generate wealth to keep above the taxes. Therefore, they reinvest.Not if they hide it in a tax heaven, like they do, or have most of their assets as non-liquid stocks and financial mumbo jumbo which aren't taxable, like they do.You seem to be talking about speculators, which are bad news, but they are legitimized by regulations and the voters have slept on that one.When, how and why?
(DIR) Post #AYhZ7P0iHJ3uMKfaNc by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:20:17Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor You were talking about the Reagan and Thatcher years like they had total control. They did not. Tradeoffs were made, mostly in order to win the Cold War.
(DIR) Post #AYhZBR2SgB0Ro9PVoW by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:21:01Z
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@MikeDunnAuthor I disagree, obviously. Poverty exists for many reasons, but the most obvious is lower earning potential.So: lower costs so normal people can have good lives too.Also some will choose poverty in order to avoid interacting with society... this deserves lower costs so they can have good lives.
(DIR) Post #AYhZIo4NRv51GQozkO by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:22:21Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Tax havens exist so that they can still have liquidity to act with; if they produce more growth, their companies and employees pay more tax. That one's a spook.The speculators... well, you remember attempts to regulate Wall Street over the past twenty years? All they ended up doing was making legal some abuses, and it's difficult to regulate all of them.
(DIR) Post #AYhZYsSws6XZX3ygKG by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:25:15Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Economics describes how markets work.You sweet, sweet, summer boy, economics os much older than markets and all that. Or do you think the USSR and the whole commie block didn't "economize" for 70 years while raising their popukations standards of living at an incredible speed and launching space probes?The COVID money was a debacle but they are rounding up the abusers now and jailing them. I thought it was a bad idea, but clearly SOMETHING was needed to keep the economy going after the panic.So the people didn't vote for that then. Expecially if one considers how little the median voter got.And that's while still skipping over how in a capitalist state the state is not much else but the private's capital lil' bitch.
(DIR) Post #AYhZr5zbJoUWhGwCSu by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:28:33Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor Tax havens exist so that they can still have liquidity to act with; if they produce more growth, their companies and employees pay more tax. That one's a spook.Like amazon? Again, companies are already paying a minimal ammount of taxation thanks to tax heavens, concessions, evasion and other tricks. Seems like you're the one being spooked by industrialists think-tanks here.The speculators... well, you remember attempts to regulate Wall Street over the past twenty years? All they ended up doing was making legal some abuses, and it's difficult to regulate all of them.Fair enough. But I'm not really arguing for regulation
(DIR) Post #AYha1vjBp4ee2yQaBM by condret@shitposter.club
2023-08-13T22:30:29.402612Z
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@moffintosh @mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor wasn't the covid money a direct application of friedman's idea of helicopter money?
(DIR) Post #AYhaOxP1lJ1Ftxye0m by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:34:40Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor The soviets forced them to raise taxation (while they did the opposite in reality) because the west had to win the cold war?They did have massive control however, just look at Thatcher's war against the British unions. Reagan and co. were no less.
(DIR) Post #AYhaoMoKQs5xwWvac4 by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:39:16Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Massive in some areas, but not complete.They had a lot to dismantle for their visions to be realized.
(DIR) Post #AYhapVtm85dgPz1RSa by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:39:29Z
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@condret @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor The original idea was, certainly... then the special interests intervened.
(DIR) Post #AYhar8sAi5MvaG35U0 by condret@shitposter.club
2023-08-13T22:39:38.844950Z
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@mayonesa @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor yes, some part of economics describes how markets work under specific conditions. But there is more to economics than just markets
(DIR) Post #AYhavJVn62MLjqZN3Y by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:40:24Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Amazon is a great example of a company using the oldest trick in the book: deduct everything and use the money to grow.What we really needed there was solid competition, but at that point, the cost burden was high for entrants.I am skeptical of most regulation... companies fear lawsuits more than rules.
(DIR) Post #AYhb2Rjuu6HtHeZtRI by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:41:48Z
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@moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor The Soviets collapsed because in part they could not reliably feed their people. Remember the battle over grain imports from the USA? Or a certain Soviet premier visiting a grocery store in Clear Lake?
(DIR) Post #AYhb8BJItsWq4CrfNo by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:42:51Z
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@condret @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor No doubt. The interesting parts often involve decision-making.However, markets exist naturally. Command economies must be imposed, and are run for political reasons, which introduces inefficiencies that are crippling.Russia found out, China is finding out, and broke Europe is about to find out...
(DIR) Post #AYhbpVgD2ipDh4Eszo by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:50:40Z
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@mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor The Soviets collapsed because in part they could not reliably feed their people.The USSR had 4 famines, two of which were because the reactionaries conquered or burned ukraine to the ground and the soviets eventually run out of reserves, one in 1933 because medival farming techniques tend to fail during droughts and the right wing of the CPSU didn't want to collectivize yet, and the last was due to the transition to a market economy and shock therapy.Or a certain Soviet premier visiting a grocery store in Clear Lake?That's called propaganda
(DIR) Post #AYhcUGWKJHQ2YC3AvY by condret@shitposter.club
2023-08-13T22:58:01.936763Z
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@mayonesa @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor i'm sorry, but i'm not buying this "markets are natural" shit, unless you want to use "natural" as "everything is natural, because in the end laws of nature always work". even then "markets are natural" is nonesense, because everything is natural then. Have you ever seen any animals organizing a market? I haven't. We humans had to go long way as a species to come up with markets as they exist today. we invented them
(DIR) Post #AYhcbsUXX4RaLKqPfk by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T22:59:24Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor However, markets exist naturally. Command economies must be imposed, and are run for political reasons, which introduces inefficiencies that are crippling.Dude, any moderatively sized company is a planned economy of it's own right. Not only that, butA) That planned economies must be imposed and markets are natural is propaganda. See the enclosures movement, japan, neocolonialism and the shock therapy in russia case in point.B) Market economies aren't apolitical as they are a method of resource distribution, which is inherently politicalC) Inefficiency of planned economies and market efficiency are a myth. See any moderatively sized company as above and https://youtu.be/pdXGUZnaLS8Russia found out, China is finding out, and broke Europe is about to find out...The fun thing is that the USSR had a stable growth rate of a bit above 2%~ until the market shock therapy, which caused an economic and social collapse it took them 20 years to recuperate. China isn't even a planned economy anymore and has still a growthrate of 6+%, while no european nation was ever a planned economy.Where did you get all this rubbish?
(DIR) Post #AYhd6gCrG5BlDbGGHo by condret@shitposter.club
2023-08-13T23:03:23.325847Z
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@moffintosh @mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor well, i guess you could make the point that the gdr had a planned economy.
(DIR) Post #AYhdEHbGczZdDhIuDw by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-13T23:06:21Z
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@condret @mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor The only socialist county that didn't have one, that i know of, was Yugoslavia.
(DIR) Post #AYhdc8kHCWZmhvtU6S by condret@shitposter.club
2023-08-13T23:10:04.703927Z
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@moffintosh @mayonesa @MikeDunnAuthor but the gdr existed in europe and wasn't formerly a part of the ussr afaik. that's why i mentioned it
(DIR) Post #AYhxdPqx4wbh8ftzay by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-14T02:54:59Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The Soviets had trouble producing food. Their system was a ruin and it died for good reasons.Planned economies mean government holding the strings of wealth and determining where it is allocated.That does not really translated to a moderately-sized company.
(DIR) Post #AYhxkeekRIdJ4qe5PU by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-14T02:56:18Z
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@condret @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor Yugoslavia was also probably the mellowest of the Eastern European Communist states.The DDR was definitely a planned economy, just more competent than the Soviets, and with some liberalization to allow for private ownership.
(DIR) Post #AYhxqExUtZDZ7C4wfg by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-14T02:57:18Z
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@condret @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor They are natural. Put a group of humans somewhere, and they will barter and eventually use money to trade goods and services.Have you ever seen animals make tacit agreements about the limits of their territory? I have; it is pure market efficiency.
(DIR) Post #AYiNwXtS0UHYNyqxqy by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-14T07:49:46Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor They are natural. Put a group of humans somewhere, and they will barter and eventually use money to trade goods and services.That is just an assumption. And a wrong one at that. Just look at the polunesians and uncontacted tribes, and you will see no money or market.Have you ever seen animals make tacit agreements about the limits of their territory? I have; it is pure market efficiency.That is not a market😂. Unless you consider trading blows and claws a trasaction
(DIR) Post #AYiRWyiI4Gj3r0hHd2 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-14T08:29:58Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The Soviets had trouble producing food. Their system was a ruin and it died for good reasons.The only issues soviets had with food where those listed in the previous comment. For everything else, see this CIA report https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp84b00274r000300150009-5Planned economies mean government holding the strings of wealth and determining where it is allocated.Yes, and you seem to imply it to be a bad thing. Explicitly allocating resources allows to skip over market inefficiencies and keep a stable society where people aren't squeezed to death. This in stark contrast to a market system which tends to create a hierarchy of wealth, which has devastating sociopolitical effects https://youtu.be/XyxnG2ck-sw?t=992That does not really translated to a moderately-sized company.https://www.amazon.com/Peoples-Republic-Walmart-Corporations-Foundation/dp/178663516X
(DIR) Post #AYizUeuK8E46I0OJXs by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-14T14:50:32Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor Trading blows and claws can occur in courtrooms too. Companies often engage in strategic behavior to avoid this. That, too, is a market. This is more esoteric, but also interesting.Primitive tribes did not barter? Money is just a proxy for barter. The Polynesians seemed to do a lot of raiding, too.
(DIR) Post #AYizY2zv1NJpsAckQC by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-14T14:51:09Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor This is a re-writing of history. The Soviet system consistently underproduced food at all levels.Planned economies are by definition less granular and therefore less accurate than market forces.
(DIR) Post #AYj0AreX8RPTys89lQ by condret@shitposter.club
2023-08-14T14:58:08.538455Z
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@mayonesa @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor there is no economics without planning. but i guess what you're trying to say is that the soviet style doesn't scale well
(DIR) Post #AYj2hLAX88AghMiByi by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-14T15:26:26Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor This is a re-writing of history. The Soviet system consistently underproduced food at all levels.That is plain false. Again, read the actual document. You have only stated platitudes and not even bothered to show anything resembling a source or even a motive to back your claims.So you resort to just denying reality, as a classic cooe mechanism.Planned economies are by definition less granular and therefore less accurate than market forces.By who's definition? Yours? Cuz I don't think anyone established it.
(DIR) Post #AYj3FWyniySBAtWl1M by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-14T15:32:37Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor Trading blows and claws can occur in courtrooms too. Companies often engage in strategic behavior to avoid this. That, too, is a market. This is more esoteric, but also interesting.And? There is no product or entity being actually exchanged. Court fights are and extra-market mechanism if anything.Primitive tribes did not barter? Money is just a proxy for barter.As I said, gift economies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economyThe Polynesians seemed to do a lot of raiding, too.Unless you want to classify getting stabbed to death and getting your shit stolen as a market transaction, I don't see how that indicates a market being natural.
(DIR) Post #AYl4LyS3gtZLWdsuuG by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T14:54:21Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor I disagree: there is a product being exchanged, or rather a service in the form of boundaries.Critters set boundaries that are mutually beneficial and avoid conflict.Gift economies are a form of barter, trading for public goodwill instead of directly trading. These seem to mostly be an invention of Western anthropologists, like much else we have discovered over the years.
(DIR) Post #AYl4PYnh0Emb81iKRs by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T14:55:03Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor This is common fact: the Soviet Union imported grain for the duration of its existence because it could not produce it.Similarly, it had shortages of many other items.Planned economies = central planning. Centralization is always less granular than bottom-up organization.
(DIR) Post #AYl4Sqfx03nrR5f1hg by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T14:55:39Z
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@condret @moffintosh @MikeDunnAuthor I disagree. Economics describes how markets occur; these are not centrally planned by definition.The Soviet system did not scale well or work well at all. There was initial revolutionary fervor, then permanent malaise.
(DIR) Post #AYl7mABcyzUVJRNYo4 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-15T15:32:45Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor This is common fact: the Soviet Union imported grain for the duration of its existence because it could not produce it.Only in your head. At least bother to source your shit
(DIR) Post #AYl8Vtqm3LuZy1Qx2O by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-15T15:41:01Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor I disagree. Economics describes how markets occur; these are not centrally planned by definition.Then did the entire easter block not "economize" for 7 decades? Plus you seem to ignore the fact that planned economies are far from a socialist exclusive. South korea, fascist italy, austria-hungary, and to a relevant extent france, the uk and usa all adopted planned economies during war time (ie "war economy"). Your definition is so willingly restricted that it doesn't allow to describe a real life phenomena.The Soviet system did not scale well or work well at all. There was initial revolutionary fervor, then permanent malaise.Dude they were the second economy of the planet after getting a third of their country destroyed in WW2 and starting to industrialize 70 years later than the west. This is just cope from cold war propaganda.
(DIR) Post #AYlAH2JQVb4NmCsN3Q by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-15T16:00:45Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor I disagree: there is a product being exchanged, or rather a service in the form of boundaries.Critters set boundaries that are mutually beneficial and avoid conflict.If I stab you and in ""exchange"" I obtain your wallet, is that a trade beween critters? You seem to include the movement of litteraly anything than can be named from an entity to another as a form of market trade and economy, even if involuntary. Hell, given the quantum superposition of electrons, are we trading riggt now in this very moment? Is this exchange of messages a market economy?Gift economies are a form of barter, trading for public goodwill instead of directly trading.Then, if you're including the immaterial, I'm sorry to say but a planned economy fits more your definition of economy than gift economies, as each individual trades in labour time with the whole to get back material security and a place in society.These seem to mostly be an invention of Western anthropologists, like much else we have discovered over the years.According to whom? You, or people who have been on the ground and actually looked at tge thing?
(DIR) Post #AYlhyiyZ3kGF2CYdc0 by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T22:18:25Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The negotiation is for boundaries, not theft.Capitalism always includes goodwill. It is an economic system, not a political one; socialism on the other hand is a political system that controls the economy.Remember the "Noble Savage" myth? There are lots of those.
(DIR) Post #AYli558nYyYTW2NNGS by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T22:19:34Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The Eastern Bloc was devastated by a number of factors, including lower average IQ, shattered industry, and a population trained into Pavlovian obedience.The fascists endorsed "corporatism," which was a state-industry merger. I think this too is a bad idea.The Soviets could have been prosperous. Instead they had a third world standard of living, and eventually collapsed from lack of goodwill by their population.
(DIR) Post #AYliG4t6qPEnusHTUm by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T22:21:33Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor Companies make a ton of money because they sell products that people like.If you want to limit that, you need some organic force like culture. Government can't do it.https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/bayarea/news/article/When-Boris-Yeltsin-went-grocery-shopping-in-Clear-5759129.phpFun reading.
(DIR) Post #AYljN04tE4bQyneibA by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-15T22:34:01Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The negotiation is for boundaries, not theft.Dude, you're the one who wanted to included beasts fighting for territory in the market definition. Overe who's territory do you think creatures define their territory over? The only reason to fight over a boundary is when they have come into contact, and the resokution of such conflic normally requires one oart tacking a piece of the other's territory by force.Even what I described above could be redefined as phisical negotiation iver the boundaries of one's ownership.Capitalism always includes goodwill. It is an economic system, not a political one; socialism on the other hand is a political system that controls the economy.The enclosures movement? Anything the US did in south and central america? The US confederacy? The large buisnesses backing mussolini in italy, hitler in germany and horty in hungary?Capitalism has always and always will involve politics and force, as the distribution of resources has side effects on society which will always call upon politics. And that's without considering how capitalists penetrate into the state and use it to their advantage. You only need to open an history book on the last 200 years of history to see, really.Remember the "Noble Savage" myth? There are lots of those.And? There are also, even more common myths, of savages being uncivilized subhumans who must be enskaved for their own good to be civilized. The fact that the myth above exists doesn't indicate anything about the real world.
(DIR) Post #AYljyc0x8r5TLtkVE0 by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-15T22:40:48Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The point is that boundaries are set by efficiency.Like the cost-demand curve, there is a point of efficiency that eliminates conflict because it is costly unless strictly necessary.
(DIR) Post #AYlkUldUu77oSa6vVA by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-15T22:46:37Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor including lower average IQScratch a libertarian, a fascist bleeds. Souce? Should I also remember you who sent the first satellite into space? Who invented lasers as a medic tool? That europe was an underdeveloped feudal shithole for a relevant part of it's history?shattered industryYeah, I wonder who shattered them with an invasion and a world war.and a population trained into Pavlovian obedience.Dude so far you're the one who has been listing platitudes without even bothering to indicate a particular causing even or a source. Should I also teach you about operation GLADIO and the extreme political repression and violence from the CIA and the western security apparatus everywhere in the world, from Italy, to Afganistan to Chile to the USA?The fascists endorsed "corporatism," which was a state-industry merger. I think this too is a bad idea.Fascies always parroted the collaborationist line and the suoremacy of the ethnic group over class, but in practive they only ever entered action in favour of large capitalists and were backed by them. See Ford and Hitler and Hitler's Circke of Friends for reference.The Soviets could have been prosperous. Instead they had a third world standard of living, and eventually collapsed from lack of goodwill by their population.https://web.williams.edu/Economics/brainerd/papers/ussr_july08.pdf
(DIR) Post #AYllww2xtGycoL1CHg by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-15T23:02:53Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor The point is that boundaries are set by efficiency.But that doesn't require a market. If anything, the profit incentive brings overall efficency down as every link of the chain tries to caputure some value for itself.Like the cost-demand curve, there is a point of efficiency that eliminates conflict because it is costly unless strictly necessary.You're conflating absence of an active fight with the absence of conflict. For reference in the cold war there was never an active conflict between nuke-carrying nations, but the whole period was far from being peaceful. The cost-demand curve is in a precarious balance, and there are many things for which no price is too high
(DIR) Post #AYnJCJXwIEZhgOPJ44 by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-16T16:50:09Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor Within the prime habitats for various species groups, the scientists could see that birds of similar species will divide up territory within the habitat—some using the canopy, others staking a claim to lower levels of a forest.https://phys.org/news/2023-08-big-birds-coexisting-tactics.htmlIt obeys market rules. Costs (conflict) versus benefits (food) finding a balance much like free markets raise quality and reduce costs over time.
(DIR) Post #AYnJNxVm2nqIokwlvc by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-16T16:52:16Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor It is not "fascist" to note that poorer people have lower IQs on average.
(DIR) Post #AYnLwsElqTioVHlorg by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-16T17:20:59Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor It's definetly fascistic to consider that not only as an implicit authorization to threat others as subhumans, but to consider that low intelligence brought poverty, while the wealthy have access to the best education momey can provide from the start.And again, source? Do I need to remind you who invented lasers for medical use and started to send space probes?
(DIR) Post #AYnMQzeWq6fGBpBFia by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-08-16T17:26:22Z
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@mayonesa @condret @MikeDunnAuthor https://youtu.be/3nX7JM_Vaj8
(DIR) Post #AYnoBScy8pGo8Xph9k by mayonesa@berserker.town
2023-08-16T22:37:22Z
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@moffintosh @condret @MikeDunnAuthor Might want to read up on what Lynn Gottfredson wrote.I don't think it is a carte blanche to treat people badly, only to recognize cause-effect relationships.Dumb people do dumb stuff and end up less prosperous.