Post AYbDBChGdcwjO5DpXE by MartinDeLaToot@noagendasocial.com
(DIR) More posts by MartinDeLaToot@noagendasocial.com
(DIR) Post #AYYpF8RfbJta8yLfJg by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-09T17:08:29Z
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#MAGA thinks this is new. That the government hates straight white cis dudes. That they were at #J6 but not in Portland, at #BLM protests or doing this for decades now to Muslims. I think the claims can be overblown but it's happening, as we've seen with many terrorism cases. The sad part is each side is mostly fine with government infiltration and fuckery of groups they don't like.
(DIR) Post #AYYqiCa3PBM9Jxh5FI by mpjgregoire@cosocial.ca
2023-08-09T17:22:57Z
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@wjmaggos Agents provocateurs are bad of course, but shouldn't the government have agents within the Proud Boys and Antifa?
(DIR) Post #AYYrsozDZGUjHi5kVE by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-09T17:38:03Z
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@mpjgregoire AFAIK agent provocateurs are originally fake protesters who try to turn peaceful protests violent to justify cops breaking it up, but...I think everyone agrees that the best justification for any govt action is prevention of violence. I think the public will accept a lot in pursuit of that goal. but our biases factor into how easily we make that leap to assuming someone we disagree with will soon go violent. we seem to have accepted more privacy violations for this reason.
(DIR) Post #AYYsbHjG44tDAapQtU by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-09T17:46:03Z
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@mpjgregoire I really don't like government doing anything secretly, so I guess I'd say no. it's really hard to have a democracy imo when the public doesn't know what they are up to. and if there's supposed to be internal oversight, why can't those officials be blackmailed by the secret government agents. I think I'd rather accept the secret plotting of violence by regular people than open the government to doing it. that it's necessary in war is why "being at war" should be very limited.
(DIR) Post #AYZ6fLGgFOI0f9I3s0 by Johnny_of_the_swamp@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-09T20:23:48Z
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@wjmaggos Alex Jones has been talking about this for 20+ years. You're strawmanning hard
(DIR) Post #AYZ7vXhvrggXpZKHQ0 by mpjgregoire@cosocial.ca
2023-08-09T20:18:30Z
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@wjmaggos There are certainly difficulties with the use of undercover government agents, but I didn't think you'd take a position against them in general.What do you think about police infiltrating the mafia? If someone already within an organisation suggests to the FBI that he could become a paid informant, should they say no?(Lots of movies have been made about undercover agents because of the tensions of their role. Donnie Brasco comes to mind.)
(DIR) Post #AYZ89LNIVynddSFt68 by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-09T20:40:24Z
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@Johnny_of_the_swamp AJ has been talking about basically everything for 20+ years. if all of #MAGA starts talking about inter dimensional child molesters tomorrow, they don't get to claim they've been hip since the 90s. there's clearly been a new found embrace of the concept of agent provocateurs since J6 (or relatedly the infiltration of alt right groups like Patriot Front and the plot against Whitmer) while the left has been complaining about them going back to at least the 60s.
(DIR) Post #AYad6tS0ejkABkjMfY by MartinDeLaToot@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-10T14:02:03Z
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@Johnny_of_the_swamp @wjmaggos cool.What’s your point?
(DIR) Post #AYb17CWS96UKEpUM4m by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-10T18:31:00Z
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@MartinDeLaToot @Johnny_of_the_swamp that maybe if conservatives had listened to lefties about this tactic years ago, we could have passed laws to eliminate it and it wouldn't be a problem for the right today. or anyone tomorrow.instead, it's an example of how we embrace those who divide us ideologically (alt media as well as in the M5M) for attention and profit, fail to work together on shit we can agree on and the bastards keep winning.
(DIR) Post #AYb2e41erCpvOeJohc by MartinDeLaToot@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-10T18:48:10Z
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@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp it’s always okay when we do it.
(DIR) Post #AYb3htCP9VI8vljWXQ by MartinDeLaToot@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-10T19:00:04Z
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@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp I think a lot of what you and I get upset over are natural human actions/interactions.
(DIR) Post #AYb4XMMKUmGc8bv0Wu by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-10T19:09:21Z
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@MartinDeLaToot @Johnny_of_the_swamp not sure I follow. I'm more optimistic about what we're capable of, you're more pessimistic?
(DIR) Post #AYbDBChGdcwjO5DpXE by MartinDeLaToot@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-10T20:46:12Z
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@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp we are generally on opposite ends, yes. You tend to grouse about natural actions but expect better. I grouse about natural actions and expect it to get worse.
(DIR) Post #AYd8XmZDqKphYMKGOm by Johnny_of_the_swamp@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-11T19:03:41Z
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@wjmaggos > #MAGA thinks this is new. > if all of #MAGA Oh, maybe you mean just *some* of "#MAGA". Not these good civil libertarian types who have been complaining about militarized police state for decades. So who are we *actually* talking about? Your boomer uncle on Facebook? Because it looks like you are creating a fictional amalgam and then critiquing it.
(DIR) Post #AYd9MYgVDZ8vGXwWnY by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-08-11T19:12:51Z
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@Johnny_of_the_swamp the vast majority of Trump supporters who appear to have been typical conservatives until he showed up? you seem to be talking about people who listened to AJ for years or old school libertarians. you don't think #MAGA is like over 80% Blue Lives Matter without a second thought about what that entails?
(DIR) Post #AYhz7CnAIu4RGwtpIm by Johnny_of_the_swamp@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-14T03:11:35Z
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@wjmaggos Proclaiming "Blue Lives Matter" and being wary of agent provocateurs are not mutually exclusive. The latter are usually *federal* agents and the former reflect local police. There's a world of difference between the detective who lives on my street and an FBI agent from hundreds of miles away. Conflating the two is silly.
(DIR) Post #AYhzC5AK5Q2P4E3aKG by Johnny_of_the_swamp@noagendasocial.com
2023-08-14T03:12:28Z
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@wjmaggos More to the point, the federal vs local distinction is a long time hallmark of "right leaning" politics and is a division that goes all the way back to the founding.