Post AYOSLbO8fCCj7VDD7o by niclas@angrytoday.com
(DIR) More posts by niclas@angrytoday.com
(DIR) Post #AYODhRn7Wk9CPhr6pc by SallyStrange@strangeobject.space
2023-08-04T13:06:38Z
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Very amusing to see capitalism apologists on the FediverseI mean, it's more understandable on Xitter or MacebookBut here? The place that's sustained by twine, chewing gum, patreon, and the hopes and dreams of two dozen catgirls? The place that's been going strong without a profit motive for half a decade now? #Capitalism fucked your mind.
(DIR) Post #AYODhSakYDqWtd4kBk by tobadzistsini@bonequest.net
2023-08-04T13:27:15Z
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@SallyStrange I already regret responding to this but what is being experienced is not capitalism but a return to feudalism what with the major increase in rent-seeking behavior. Feudalism leads to the glories of socialism and Marxism by angering the proletariat. Please let it continue so blood is spilt.
(DIR) Post #AYOSLbO8fCCj7VDD7o by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-08-04T17:04:54Z
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@SallyStrange The main problem is that everyone has their own definition of what capitalism is. And the same thing go for socialism.Personally I think it is on purpose for the ruling elite to keep us plebs fighting among ourselves, while they laugh all the way to the bank.
(DIR) Post #AYOXivdy1KF0N7YexM by breadandcircuses@climatejustice.social
2023-08-04T13:46:50Z
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@SallyStrange I've been seeing some of them show up in my comments recently too. Just shows how effective propaganda can be when all the major news outlets and all the biggest producers of movies and TV shows and even advertising are relentlessly focused on upholding and promoting a corrupt and deeply harmful regime, i.e., #capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AYOXiwJRX7PyRkxmbY by SallyStrange@strangeobject.space
2023-08-04T13:50:32Z
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@breadandcircuses The way people constantly insist that "humans are inherently greedy" reminds me of the way heavily patriarchal societies insist that "women hate sex." Oh yeah? Then why do you have to lock them up to prevent them having sex? Why are there laws against feeding the poor in some states?
(DIR) Post #AYOXiwsXQdUUCbNoJ6 by fifilamoura@eldritch.cafe
2023-08-04T14:53:39Z
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@SallyStrange "humans are inherently greedy" is just people telling on themselves. Look, just because you're a greedy sociopath doesn't mean everyone else is, most people aren't in fact. @breadandcircuses
(DIR) Post #AYOXiy298OlpmgszvE by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-08-04T18:05:01Z
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@fifilamoura @SallyStrange @breadandcircuses 1) This whole thread ya'll2) People need to think they are good (even when bad) so they will lie and say they are like everyone else (if I'm greedy then you are greedy). It's like the hero of your own story but like writ large...3) You right... most people aren't
(DIR) Post #AYOldRxoLCcMEQ7bDU by pixelpusher220@universeodon.com
2023-08-04T14:04:52Z
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@SallyStrange i wonder if we're doing the same thing to 'capitalism' the right wing does to socialism.Muddy the definition so nobody has the same definition and thus it's turned into a pejorative for everyone.Trying to differentiate the nuance between a market system and 'capitalism' isn't great in this format đŹ
(DIR) Post #AYOldSfPj5UoPeWQBE by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T14:23:31Z
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@pixelpusher220 @SallyStrange No excuse. The info is right there, you need to sort it out better.Most of the muddying actually comes from defenders of capitalism who have only superficial understanding, if even that much.Understand first of all that the word capitalism itself was originally coined by critics of the system. It was always a bad thing, but the word has been rehabilitated by some.You know there are people here who can help you see the true defining characteristics of capitalism if you are willing to examine things.
(DIR) Post #AYOldTI3PQP8LUbHPM by SallyStrange@strangeobject.space
2023-08-04T14:28:59Z
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@RD4Anarchy @pixelpusher220 right, like, I was just talking about two specific defining characteristics of capitalism as we currently know it: the concept of LLCs and marginal utility theoryI'm always trying to be more precise and specific in my understanding and explanation, so no, I don't really worry that I'm muddying definitions as a habit. If things seem unclear, that's an opportunity to explore and hopefully learn.
(DIR) Post #AYOldUBi4UvL86dj9s by mmclark@fosstodon.org
2023-08-04T14:54:58Z
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@SallyStrange @RD4Anarchy @pixelpusher220 Hope you don't mind a dumb question... what do you mean by capitalism? All private business? Just companies of a certain size?
(DIR) Post #AYOldVPvV7tEwUIaxM by SallyStrange@strangeobject.space
2023-08-04T15:30:54Z
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@mmclark @RD4Anarchy @pixelpusher220 Per Oxford dictionary: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit."
(DIR) Post #AYOldWQJl9nU3zUQCm by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T16:08:26Z
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@SallyStrange @mmclark @pixelpusher220 The private ownership thing gets emphasized a lot, especially in dictionary examples, but I've come to think it is not really essential at all; not a defining feature of capitalism.Consider the following description of capitalism from the book "State Capitalism: The Wages System Under New Management" by Adam Buick and John Crump:"We shall suggest that, apart from being a class society, capitalism has the following six essential characteristics:1. Generalised commodity production, nearly all wealth being produced for sale on a market.2. The investment of capital in production with a view to obtaining a monetary profit.3. The exploitation of wage labour, the source of profit being the unpaid labour of the producers.4. The regulation of production by the market via a competitive struggle for profits.5. The accumulation of capital out of profits, leading to the expansion and development of the forces of production.6. A single world economy."The focus of this short book is to argue (very successfully IMO) that individual private ownership is not a defining feature of capitalism and that countries such as China, The Soviet Union (this was published in 1986), Cuba, Vietnam, etc, though they may identify as "socialist" and are called "communist" by many are in fact simply another form of capitalism called "state capitalism". In the process of making this argument, this book also became an excellent general reference for understanding what capitalism really is, how capitalist economics work, what socialism really is and isn't, and plenty of fascinating and clarifying historic context.free PDF:https://files.libcom.org/files/State%20Capitalism.pdf
(DIR) Post #AYOldWt22OlXV2vLxg by MontgomeryGator@fouroclockfarms.club
2023-08-04T16:26:53Z
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@RD4Anarchy @SallyStrange @mmclark @pixelpusher220 Capitalism today seems to be opposed to private ownership anyway.Would you like to lease a car? Stream your music? Rent your home? Own nothing?
(DIR) Post #AYOldXadQHdzgHKAvQ by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T16:55:31Z
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@mmclark @pixelpusher220 @SallyStrange @MontgomeryGator @RD4Anarchy When you talk about your car, your home, and other things that you personally use and occupy, thatâs not really what people mean when they talk about private ownership in the context of capitalism. Private ownership refers to the ownerâs ability to exert power over the rest of society via their ownership. Do you own land, such that people need to work for you for permission to feed themselves? Do you own a monopoly over a piece of music or the recording of a film? Do you own a business, such that people engaged in economic activity have to give you a portion of their income to keep working? Do you own someone *elseâs* home, such that a third of their labor goes to supporting you? Thatâs what we mean by âprivate.â
(DIR) Post #AYOldY8fNkrlNpFLyC by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T17:28:49Z
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@SallyStrange @MontgomeryGator @RD4Anarchy @pixelpusher220 @mmclark The opposite of âprivateâ isnât âpublic,â which is, as others have noted here, just a euphemism for private ownership by the state. The opposite of âprivateâ is âcommon,â in the sense that many actors own the same right and no owner can exclude any other.We might think of your home as your personal property, something you use and occupy. If I set up a tollbooth outside and threatened to hurt you unless you pay me a toll to use your home, then your home is my private property. If we lived in it together and neither of us could exclude the other, and thus demand tolls, it would be our common property.
(DIR) Post #AYOldYbjdg7OpyqZHM by mmclark@fosstodon.org
2023-08-04T17:42:45Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange @MontgomeryGator @RD4Anarchy @pixelpusher220 I had a similar revelation when reading Jacobin's "The ABCs of Socialism". They distinguish personal property (i.e. your toothbrush or record albums) from "private property" which would be the means of production. As I understand the difference, you would have control over your toothbrush, but if you wanted to purchase a mower to start a lawn care business, that would be considered "means of production".
(DIR) Post #AYOldZ0Y9Py44wSNxQ by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T17:49:26Z
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@mmclark @HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange @MontgomeryGator @pixelpusher220 I'm excited to think about the further revelations that you appear to be on track to encounter!The ABCs of Socialism was an early stepping-stone for me as well, but really just barely enough of one to advance me to more solid footing.
(DIR) Post #AYOldZffgWrS8ThE3M by mmclark@fosstodon.org
2023-08-04T18:01:03Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange @MontgomeryGator @pixelpusher220 Thanks - I appreciate that! Though I confess I'm skeptical of any system that forbids individuals starting a restaurant, or selling things they've built. That may not be what you mean, but it seems like what the ABCs were leading to.
(DIR) Post #AYOlda81z5XvYQxsG0 by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T18:03:46Z
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@MontgomeryGator @SallyStrange @mmclark @pixelpusher220 @RD4Anarchy Iâd encourage you to consider a distinction between âstarting a restaurantâ in the sense of voluntarily working towards a goalâalone or in voluntary cooperation with othersâand âstarting a restaurantâ in the capitalist sense of owning the labor of others who operate a restaurant.
(DIR) Post #AYOldajxi3t5S4iANc by mmclark@fosstodon.org
2023-08-04T18:10:55Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @MontgomeryGator @SallyStrange @pixelpusher220 @RD4Anarchy Sure. In the situation I'm thinking about, that would certainly be the goal. Let's say I start a restaurant for that purpose, and it does well, and I now can't do it all alone. Would a non-capitalist system allow me to hire someone to help me?
(DIR) Post #AYOldbAC8Ws4lQz7Gi by SallyStrange@strangeobject.space
2023-08-04T18:15:14Z
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@mmclark @HeavenlyPossum @MontgomeryGator @pixelpusher220 @RD4Anarchy In a non-capitalist system, why would you want to open a restaurant? The main reason would be, because cooking is your thing, and that's how you want to contribute to your community. You wouldn't need to "hire" anyone because if your cooking was delicious and you enjoyed doing it, people would quickly join in to help distribute the delicious food to everyone who wanted it.
(DIR) Post #AYOldbdyLogsFmutgO by mmclark@fosstodon.org
2023-08-04T18:20:36Z
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@SallyStrange @HeavenlyPossum @MontgomeryGator @pixelpusher220 @RD4Anarchy That's a good question. I need to chew on it a bit. A restaurant is an interesting example, because some folks clearly love to cook. But what about services that few people love to do (cleaning toilets, collecting trash, etc.). I suspect few people would do those things without some sort of incentive.
(DIR) Post #AYOldc86XmnFlF0xeK by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-08-04T18:27:04Z
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@MontgomeryGator @RD4Anarchy @mmclark @SallyStrange @pixelpusher220 Consider the vast array of human motivations to actâselfishness, caring, love, pride, anger, rivalry, etc etc. Under capitalism, weâre crudely reduced to a single objectiveâacquire access to enough revenue that you can buy permission to survive another day. When free, people do things for a huge number of reasons. Some might cook and feed people out of love, or to earn prestige, or humiliate a rival. Some might only cook if theyâre offered material reward, and people should of course be free to reward those cooks if they want. But capitalism doesnât so much incentivize you with reward, but rather hold you hostage. If you donât work to earn income, you will *be starved* by property owners.
(DIR) Post #AYOmK7qX0r0AI549E8 by EvilSandmich@poa.st
2023-08-04T20:48:45.601086Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @mmclark @MontgomeryGator @SallyStrange @pixelpusher220 @RD4Anarchy >owning the labor of othersIs there anyone who talks like that who isn't a lazy bastard?đ¤