Post AYKBJuikZ275rSFviC by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AYCjVUULlNsT9gX6LQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-07-30T00:55:32Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
I've been trying to find the right way to articulate this-- but the folks on the right have it backwards about who is driven by "white guilt" -- This impulse to cover up and distort the history of slavery reeks of shame. It's, frankly, weird. Nobody has perfect ancestors, what sort of crisis of identity leads one to lie about the past. It's just the things that happened. You learn about them you learn from them. You do better. Don't make it so emotional and personal.
(DIR) Post #AYDphT1ZpHtKyM81SK by The_Icarian@federated.press
2023-07-30T01:04:17Z
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@futurebird There's a certain type of white person who harbors the the need to look down on others, to be better than others. They are supremacists. They're ancestors LIKED slavery.And 157 years after we fought a war to end this system, generations of hate have been passed down, person to person, by a white populace that cannot accept the fact they lost and that system is done.All of other evils grow from this and from a misguided need to control, blame and feel superior others.
(DIR) Post #AYDphTeDVcneuCCsgS by RenewedRebecca@oldbytes.space
2023-07-30T01:19:57Z
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@The_Icarian @futurebird This is it, right here... The people who are so worked up about CRT or teaching actual history. They don't feel shame about what white people did. They're proud of it, and want to resume it.
(DIR) Post #AYDphUGrBxhyq2Hjua by AUc34pg7Dq80K0xUzQ.spitfire@poster.place
2023-07-30T14:04:44.867296Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@RenewedRebecca @The_Icarian @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AYDvulwxN9cb9sh9NY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-07-30T15:12:03Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I assume you get why it's not a nice thing to say that "slavery helped black people in some ways" but I think some people miss why this particular idea is *exceptionally* racist.One of the main arguments to justify slavery was that it "civilized" black people by making us Christian & teaching us obedience to our "betters." Black people were "lucky" or "better off" as slaves. It assumes that when people were enslaved they had no skills, nothing to offer, that they were basically animals.
(DIR) Post #AYDvumUzKcqMrQcKQK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-30T15:14:20Z
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@futurebird Saying "Slavery helped black people" sounds like saying "Rapists help women with their self-esteem".... The absurdity of such a statement is beyond me.
(DIR) Post #AYENxVFOj4qAwRPY9Y by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-07-30T20:28:38Z
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@futurebird Ah but you are looking at this as a person who wants more and better for everyone in the future. For many, they want what "they had" in the past in the present and future. There is a saying, the past isn't dead, it's not even past and when someone is trying to pull a slavery/genocide but in the present they have to "deal with" the past first.
(DIR) Post #AYEtFL7ODolRJmeOKe by fcktheworld587@social.linux.pizza
2023-07-31T02:19:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird it's not ashamed of it's history, it just understands that a citizenry taught an accurate version of the actions taken by their government, through history, will be radicalised, and will not serve their agenda. They don't have shame. They have goals, for which the populace are their tools.
(DIR) Post #AYGr5wVQY7A8mnCmR6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-07-30T15:17:56Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I get the feeling the original idea they wanted was "black people benefited from slavery because they became Christian." -- but, this was probably too obviously a violation of separation and racist. Black people didn't just passively learn Christianity, btw. We re-invented it into a theology of liberation that drove the Civl Rights movement. So much synthesis and invention occurred *despite* slavery not because of it.So much of what those people knew has been lost forever, but not all of it.
(DIR) Post #AYKBJpMEVK8BEAgNQ8 by volkris@qoto.org
2023-07-30T16:02:02Z
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@futurebirdAn issue I see in your posts here is that it comes across as setting up a series of strawmen, your putting words in others’ mouths about what they’re claiming in order to shoot down the things that they’re not necessarily saying.The arguments that you’re attacking aren’t the ones I’ve been hearing from the other side, so the stance doesn’t come across as actually addressing the issue.
(DIR) Post #AYKBJrcc5OQEFYMUEK by cadenza@universeodon.com
2023-07-30T16:11:15Z
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@volkris @futurebird she’s not though. These “arguments” are not new. They’ve been used before, and history shows damn well what they imply. Let’s not make excuses for racists now. Giving them epistemological cover is pretty intellectually dishonest, which is what you’re accusing her of.
(DIR) Post #AYKBJsOTDShedykhpA by volkris@qoto.org
2023-07-30T16:15:25Z
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@cadenzaMaybe it would be helpful for citation of specific cases where those arguments are made, so they can be addressed directly, instead of vaguely.Again, the problem is that maybe those arguments are made or were made, but in the present case they’re not the ones I’ve seen, hence it ends up sounding like a strawman attack.I’d say specific citation would help set the criticism on a firmer foundation.@futurebird
(DIR) Post #AYKBJt7qUl00uhywYC by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2023-07-30T16:41:43Z
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@volkris @cadenza @futurebird You just need to plug in the search term "slavery civilized blacks" and you find examples. Here is one: ews/2023/07/28/disgusting-black-republicans-livid-over-desantis-slavery-attack-00108776
(DIR) Post #AYKBJu3H3Ew7moqo40 by volkris@qoto.org
2023-07-30T16:52:16Z
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@InkySchwartzAnd that’s a great example of exactly what I’m saying:IF this Politico article is accurately capturing the position (and I’m not saying it is) then the arguments being refuted above aren’t part of the position being taken.Without a specific citation for what’s or who’s being argued against, the critique is open to being waived off as misunderstanding, at best, the idea it’s trying to counter.If DeSantis said slavery was good because it Christianized those in chains, yeah, that would be a pretty awful stance to take, but that’s not among the arguments that have been hitting the headlines, as the Politico article indicated.@cadenza @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AYKBJuikZ275rSFviC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-07-31T03:35:44Z
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@volkris @InkySchwartz @cadenza This conversation isn't about proving a point about DeSantis. It's about larger trends in American culture and the way that older ideas are resurfacing. You seem to think this is a debate? Or about proving some political point? It's not. I'm interested in this idea of "guilt" and the notion the a purpose of accurate discussion of slavery is to cause guilt. It seems bonkers to me.
(DIR) Post #AYKBJvNA8mRJsnAChc by volkris@qoto.org
2023-07-31T05:18:30Z
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@futurebirdWell I would say that the discussion you are setting off on seems pretty disconnected from the larger trends in American culture since it doesn’t seem to be referencing things that are going on in current events.And so like I said, pointing to specific examples of the argument that you are criticizing would go a long way to clarify what you are trying to say.@InkySchwartz @cadenza
(DIR) Post #AYKBJw91GqikHDYQIS by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2023-08-02T12:39:29Z
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@volkris @futurebird @cadenza Dude, I gave you both a specific example and a way you can find more for yourself. So why do you keep acting like there is no evidence of these ideas out there on the part of what we now call American Conservativeism?
(DIR) Post #AYKBJwm0vrueE9nZ4q by volkris@qoto.org
2023-08-02T12:50:07Z
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@InkySchwartzDude, your specific example refuted the discussion, showing that it was off base!@futurebird @cadenza
(DIR) Post #AYKBJxLSo4Gk06NsKe by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2023-08-02T14:11:01Z
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@volkris @futurebird @cadenza Ah, no it did not. The point @futurebird brought up was that the idea that there are conservatives who believe that slavery was good since it gave slaves skills. You objected to that and asked for evidence. I provided that evidence and you then pivoted it to being something about DeSantis in specific.So you are being a dishonest conversational partner here.
(DIR) Post #AYKBJxvcddBzoFIkgy by volkris@qoto.org
2023-08-02T14:20:23Z
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@InkySchwartzThe article said otherwise, but okay let’s go with you, what conservatives said slavery is good?@futurebird @cadenza
(DIR) Post #AYKBJyYyHKfTmHiB1c by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2023-08-02T14:23:01Z
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@volkris @futurebird @cadenza No it did not. A direct quote you can look up yourself:"At issue are the new education standards for how Black history is taught in Florida schools that DeSantis signed into law last year. The revised guidelines, released this month, require educators to instruct middle schoolers that “slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit.”"
(DIR) Post #AYKBJzBFyzIDh1ckhU by volkris@qoto.org
2023-08-02T14:25:42Z
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@InkySchwartzYou see how there’s a difference between saying slavery was good and saying that slaves developed skills that could be applied for their personal benefit?Those are absolutely not the same positions.@futurebird @cadenza
(DIR) Post #AYKBJzO1DXV8Kbawam by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2023-08-02T14:24:26Z
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@volkris @futurebird @cadenza Further: "Donalds, who largely praised the guidelines as “good, robust and accurate,” took issue with the idea of “personal benefit” and said that part is “wrong and needs to be adjusted.” Donalds supported DeSantis for governor but has backed Trump in the presidential primary."So this is support for the OPs point.
(DIR) Post #AYKBJzuzExs9yr1Gym by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-08-02T14:44:50Z
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@volkris @InkySchwartz @cadenza No. Every person who has been forced to do something learns something from it. What is the point of pointing that out?
(DIR) Post #AYKBK0Tj9nf5ibH184 by cadenza@universeodon.com
2023-08-02T14:47:43Z
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@futurebird @volkris @InkySchwartz he’s gaslighting. “See, you learned from your abuser so it can’t be all bad!” Africans already had skills. They didn’t need to be beaten, tortured, raped, and had their families taken away to learn new ones.
(DIR) Post #AYKBK160rSHpdLBanw by volkris@qoto.org
2023-08-02T14:50:39Z
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@cadenzaCan you quote a mainstream conservative saying otherwise?Again, it seems like you’re arguing against a stance that isn’t being taken, arguing against a strawman.@futurebird @InkySchwartz
(DIR) Post #AYKBK1v3nf7UBf4MN6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-08-02T15:16:03Z
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What do you know about the: 1906 Atlanta Race Riot1919 Washington, D.C. Race Riot1920 Ocoee Massacre1921 Tulsa Massacre and the 1923 Rosewood Massacre?How would you describe these events?
(DIR) Post #AYKBK2S1p5UVpuUgl6 by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-08-02T15:34:40.643046Z
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a gross repeat of the same events that happened to the Chinese in the late 1800s forcing them into Chinatowns, which nobody objected to because they weren't citizens (known as the Chinese Retreat, 1884-1910)only had about 100k Chinese in the American west at that time, so it was pretty much a perfect test run on using force to create whites-only communities