Post AY2ZoOGWm8BImQdaro by nonlinear@mastodon.com.br
(DIR) More posts by nonlinear@mastodon.com.br
(DIR) Post #AY2Zaw3EMfzrVg0CLw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T03:42:18Z
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Here's a story that illustrates why I favour federating with Chains ("Threads"), even though I'm opposed to Meta's very existence.Alice and Bob follow each other on InstaGrope. Alice, being more of an early adopter, signs up for Chains, and convinces Bob to do the same. Then Chains turns on AP federation. Alice realises she can still follow and talk to all the same people on Chains from other fediverse servers, and moves to one.(1/2)#fediverse #Meta #AntiMetaFediPact
(DIR) Post #AY2Ze1MJ5TkEq9Od6W by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T03:42:57Z
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But Bob is confused by the plethora of server choices, and besides he's had enough transition pain for the time being, so he remains on Chains. But Alice and Bob can continue to talk to each other, until Bob is ready to choose a new server and make the move. In fact, his continued contact with Alice and her glowing reports of life outside the DataFarm makes it much more likely that he will.(2/2)
(DIR) Post #AY2ZoOGWm8BImQdaro by nonlinear@mastodon.com.br
2023-07-25T03:44:48Z
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@strypey It would be nice to list instances by affinity to meta. You seem to be on friend-of-a-friend camp... Acting as a bright from meta instance to others.I guess mine would be no to meta but yay to FOAF.
(DIR) Post #AY2auyOLTKtmVyzsNU by leadegroot@bne.social
2023-07-25T03:56:40Z
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@strypey Yes, exactly my thought too.And then when Alice's server's admins wearily decides they've had enough and defederates with "Chains" (lol) - Bob will go "I haven't heard from Alice in a while... oh. They defederated with us... ok, time to do that move thing Alice told me about"
(DIR) Post #AY2bXw2w7rJoXDYtQu by jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
2023-07-25T04:04:07Z
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@strypey In the meantime, Chains has read and analysed all of Alice's DMs to Bob without her consent.
(DIR) Post #AY372OjJ8wBwlGO0hs by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T03:53:15Z
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@strypey if Bob really wants to follow Alice, would he be sufficiently motivated to leave Chains if there's no integration with the Fediverse? That's the real gamble. Forcing people to act decisively.
(DIR) Post #AY372POQg35Koncqno by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T09:57:02Z
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@lightweight > if Bob really wants to follow Alice, would he be sufficiently motivated to leave Chains if there's no integration with the Fediverse?Alice wouldn't have left Chains in the first place if there was no integration with the fediverse. She might participate in both. But both Alice and Bob are kept on Chains. I've obviously simplified the whole scenario by talking about only 2 people. Instead of the messy, multi-faceted social networks that actually keep people on DataFarms.
(DIR) Post #AY372QasDGdKXgSIq0 by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T03:55:07Z
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@strypey because, of course, Bob could participate in both at the same time (as, say, I do right now) but with minimal intersection between the two (I mostly post links to Mastodon posts on Facebook š )
(DIR) Post #AY37RZfNcNZJv7YPo0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:01:37Z
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@lightweight > if Bob really wants to follow Alice, would he be sufficiently motivated to leave Chains if there's no integration with the Fediverse?Alice wouldn't have left Chains in the first place if there was no integration with the fediverse. Because that would have meant abandoning Bob. In theory, two people could coordinate to move. Obviously I've simplified the scenario by focusing on 2 people. Instead of the messy, multi-faceted social networks that actually keep people on DataFarms.
(DIR) Post #AY37sFvt5zYEXHzxAW by adversarial_banana@social.linux.pizza
2023-07-25T04:15:03Z
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@jens @strypey aaaand this is where it breaks down for me. Federating with meta/threads to connect to people on that platform will allow meta to scrape the contents of the messages to/from people that are not on their platform.
(DIR) Post #AY37sLFZKFGV1mFF2W by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:06:15Z
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@adversarial_banana > Federating with meta/threads to connect to people on that platform will allow meta to scrape the contents of the messages to/from people that are not on their platform.*Sigh*. This is not how ActivityPub works. See:https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/07/what-to-know-about-threads/@jens
(DIR) Post #AY37zC4bqK1garNzSi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:07:46Z
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@jens > Chains has read and analysed all of Alice's DMs to Bob without her consentAs opposed to the scenario in which Alice and Bob both remain on Chains, in which case... oh. Turns out this is going to be the case in all scenarios. So... not really relevant.
(DIR) Post #AY38RR8NROSBPbcDw0 by jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
2023-07-25T10:12:49Z
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@strypey It's highly relevant for Alice, who has left Chains for a reason.
(DIR) Post #AY3AWSredQXM8PJpY0 by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:03:25Z
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@strypey in the meantime, we can adopt a 'open first, closed second, if at all' approach, e.g. posting links to Mastodon posts on centralised closed social media, as a way to show folks there that a parallel universe exists. We need to be the sort of authentic people they'd want to create a new account on a new (to them) technology to follow.
(DIR) Post #AY3AWTPgatl7pxF0am by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:36:06Z
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@lightweight > posting links to Mastodon posts on centralised closed social media, as a way to show folks there that a parallel universe existsWith walled gardens, that's the best we can do. If they're willing to federate with us, we can do much better.
(DIR) Post #AY3AgBbBgOenTxFh68 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:37:53Z
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@jens > It's highly relevant for Alice, who has left Chains for a reasonThe reason Alice left Chains, in this scenario, is that she can still follow and interact with her friends who remain there. If Chains is blocked by the rest of the fediverse, she might set up a fedi account too, but she's forced to stay on Chains. Not by Meta. By *us*.
(DIR) Post #AY3B9RyHtAyweu0kwy by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:37:28Z
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@strypey yes and no... with their scale, even with lukewarm enthusiasm they can overwhelm us almost immediately.
(DIR) Post #AY3B9ShJBmziuX4i7k by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:43:08Z
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@lightweight > with their scale, even with lukewarm enthusiasm they can overwhelm us almost immediatelyRight, and this is why our entire fediverse experience right now is overwhelmed with posts from mastodon.social, and lolicon from the enormous Japanese servers. Oh wait...(1/2)
(DIR) Post #AY3BOvSEYPl0RUOiGm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T10:46:02Z
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@lightweight This is not how ActivityPub works. If nobody on Server A follows anyone on Chains, none of its posts are part of their view of the network.Posts from Chains only touch Server A when someone using that server chooses to follow someone on Chains. If Server A Limits Chains, the only people who can see those posts there are the people following the person on Chains who posted it. None of this requires blocking/ full defederation.(2/2)
(DIR) Post #AY3C5k0Mzy1VNumRwe by downey@floss.social
2023-07-25T10:53:43Z
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@strypey(thank goodness!) @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AY3F76XJ0sOPPrWlzE by jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
2023-07-25T11:27:34Z
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@strypey I question the validity of an argument that claims one is *forced* to be on social media at all.But she has no reason to leave Chains unless it is to enjoy things that Chains cannot offer, which can be varied, but may include not wanting to be harvested to the same degree. This is *especially* likely if the services otherwise permit interaction.Staying in both worlds makes it easier for her to compartmentalize, and distinguish which things to post where.The point is, if she....
(DIR) Post #AY3WZx6iqXl7nAR20G by adversarial_banana@social.linux.pizza
2023-07-25T14:43:15Z
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@strypey @jens Except it is. I was clear to say ācontents of your messageā in my original reply. The issue isnāt how the protocol works but what meta would do with the data it *can* get its grubby claws on. Facebook/meta is a company known for creating āshadow profilesā for non-users. I donāt want my activity pub data to contribute to that. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5544396/
(DIR) Post #AY4AIkoBJj1ytI7ILQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T22:08:24Z
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@nonlinear> I guess mine would be no to meta but yay to FOAFI think that's the minimum reasonable position. I have no problem with server admins Limiting or fully defederating from Chains, on the same case-by-case basis as any other server-level moderation decision. But threatening to defederate from servers that choose to let Chains accounts interact with people using their server is rude and somewhat authoritarian.
(DIR) Post #AY4B5lnCRkxy8I1vEW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T22:17:16Z
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@adversarial_banana> The issue isnāt how the protocol works but what meta would do with the data it *can* get its grubby claws onExcept is isn't. Because as Gargron explains in that linked post, there's nothing Meta can see by federating with a server that it can't see by pointing a web browser at that same server.Except for Direct posts, but *only* those sent to people using Chains.(1/2)@jens
(DIR) Post #AY4BQ1syK3sPpuOGbg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T22:20:55Z
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@adversarial_bananaThe insecurity of Direct posts is a problem that needs fixing anyway. Because who knows what other servers are quietly being run by DataFarmers and spooks?In the short term, all Direct post UI needs to warn people their message can be read by anyone with admin access to the sending or receiving server(s).In the longer term, they need to be E2EE. OR we need an SSO solution that allows DMs to be sent via E2EE matrix using a fediverse account.(2/2)@jens
(DIR) Post #AY4Jckg6PVgzrjwr2G by nonlinear@mastodon.com.br
2023-07-25T23:52:50Z
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@strypey I think different instances have different goals, and that's the whole point. It's not "reasonable", it's what you want to do. Others think differently.What I'm proposing is for instances to expose their policies, so other instances navigate accordingly.
(DIR) Post #AY4KBgXTn7nJAEZYJM by nonlinear@mastodon.com.br
2023-07-25T23:55:18Z
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@strypey it's not authoritarian if they themselves decided to disengage. That's kinda the whole point. You just disagree with their decision, but it's their instance and they do what they want.Meta can warp mastodon topology. Maybe not the technology, but certainly the network. There's no silver bullet here. Instances will go their own way.
(DIR) Post #AY4KBhCxIuyHEryfxY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-25T23:59:05Z
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@nonlinear> it's not authoritarian if they themselves decided to disengageI very specifically didn't say that. Read it again.What I did say is that it's authoritarian to use threats of defederation to try to influence other admins' choices about who they federate with and how. I stand by that.
(DIR) Post #AY4Kr30BBCEehjig1A by dsfgs@activism.openworlds.info
2023-07-26T00:06:32Z
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@nonlinear @strypeyWe see it as people who are desperate to stop the authoritarian Bigs from waltzing in and making a true, right mess of this place we call fedi.People who will let the cancer in were likely always agologists and servants to the corporate state, and it would explain a good few things, in fact.
(DIR) Post #AY4LJFHf6oqou9LJx2 by nonlinear@mastodon.com.br
2023-07-26T00:11:07Z
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@strypey oh i see, i got it wrong, sorry.if instances are radically free, they're free to do as they choose.personally I don't think I have the stomach for the onslaught of poorly educated angry people, homophobes and transphobes. I rather disengage.but we could at least surface our policies "how we deal with profiteers in our midst" so we link or unlink accordingly.connect only with good nodes, eh? but definition of good is personal.
(DIR) Post #AY4eUDEGzEtgqYhV0y by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-26T03:46:35Z
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@nonlinear> if instances are radically free, they're free to do as they choose100%, respect for server autonomy is key to allowing the fediverse to scale up moderation so much more effectively than the DataFarms.> connect only with good nodesFor me it's the opposite, Suspend only irredeemably bad nodes. Mainly because I prefer not to judge newbies by the server they happen to stumble in through. I encourage people to leave mastodon.social but I'd be very hesitant to Suspend them.
(DIR) Post #AY4kYoAiB0cEIzbqcK by paoloredaelli@mastodon.uno
2023-07-26T04:54:39Z
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@strypey#Meta most probably just want to #embraceextendextinguish the #Fediverse just as #Google did with #XMPP. In doubt I fear it is wiser to avoid federating with anything owned by Meta@lightweight
(DIR) Post #AY5L3Wbx7553AXIUvw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-26T11:43:37Z
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@paoloredaelli> just as Google did with XMPPThe thing is, they *didn't* extinguish XMPP. Most of the Walled Garden chat platforms use XMPP in internally (just not openly federated) and there is still a thriving network of openly federating, community-hosted XMPP servers, and services like @snikket_im building smoother UX on top of XMPP and its open network.If we refuse to federate with Chains, we do to ourselves what Goggle did by defederating from the open XMPP network.@lightweight
(DIR) Post #AY5PHRHC90PEUhTicK by paoloredaelli@mastodon.uno
2023-07-26T12:30:49Z
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@strypeyYou're right. I should have written "made irrelevant" or "tamed and turned into a niche". I somehow misused the #embraceextendextinguish mada infamous by #microsoft Many people included me happily used #googletalk because it used XMPP. I wouldn't have used it if I knew they planned to defederate. I like to think that avoiding federating to #meta could make people conscious. Alternatively we could inform Facebook users but I fear it's an easily lost battle š„@snikket_im @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AY5s0GwaCinSCF0IW8 by adversarial_banana@social.linux.pizza
2023-07-26T17:49:54Z
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@strypey thank you for elaborating. I appreciate it. @jens
(DIR) Post #AY665HbUZqF536QEr2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-26T20:30:35Z
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@paoloredaelli> I wouldn't have used it if I knew they planned to defederate. I like to think that avoiding federating to meta could make people consciousThe key question is, will federating with Chains help them attract more people to use it, or help more people to leave it? (1/2)@snikket_im @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AY66Xrt9GTFzh0JMOG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-26T20:35:45Z
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@paoloredaelliWith GChat, many of us were suckered into thinking that Goggle were genuine supporters of open standards, at a time which governments had no interest in regulating tech corporations. The difference now is there is much more public awareness of DataFarming, and we *know* Meta's motives are impure. But there are laws like the EU DMA obliging them to interoperate.(2/2)@snikket_im @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AYFuIgfyownG9xwxO4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-31T14:04:49Z
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@nonlinear > I don't think I have the stomach for the onslaught of poorly educated angry people, homophobes and transphobes. I rather disengageThen you clearly haven't been here long. Those of us who've been here about a decade, have seen wave of wave of poorly educated angry people arrive and set up camp here, some of them homophobes and transphobes and some of them anti-homophobes and anti-transphobes. They take a bit of calming down, and sometimes a swing of the banhammer, but...(1/2)
(DIR) Post #AYFv7WKh2Kd4qiESoa by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-31T14:12:14Z
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@nonlinear ... because of these waves of angry people, new servers have been created, to keep incompatible groups from tearing each other's throats out. New software has been created by angry newbies dissatisfied with the existing options. Improvements to the moderation tooling, initially on Mastodon and later on other software, happened because of *both* the angry groups ending up here.Through all of this, the verse thrived, and slowly but steadily grew.(2/2)