Post AXxq16Efc0558WNdgm by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #AXw8rBMFDrmCwJzJ6u by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T00:30:23Z
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I listened to Bradley Kuhn of the Software Freedom Conservancy talk about the #RedHat #RHEL source code situation, and it only confirms for me that what RH is doing in trying to lock up the code is wrong. I love the #Fedora Project and community, but does participating in Fedora in effect condone what RH is doing? https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/345
(DIR) Post #AXw8rH7vlztMpfKxdI by jbowen@mast.hpc.social
2023-07-22T01:14:33Z
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@passthejoe I've personally decided to back away from Fedora as well. At least for now I want some separation from the RH ecosystem.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0h0HQMiQseSIHw by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:33:58Z
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@passthejoe well, if you're interested, I have some complex thoughts!I actually tend to agree with bkuhn that this is in a sense against the 'spirit of the GPL'. buuuut. That's only one angle.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0hkidhrXCgBNfk by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:35:04Z
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@passthejoe I also agree with another RHer who pointed out that what we've been doing for decades is also kinda 'against the spirit of the GPL': effectively selling RHEL seat licenses. we say if you want to run X instances of RHEL and get support, you have to pay for them, and if you run 'unauthorized' instances, we'll cancel your support contract. isn't that a constraint on freedom #0, and hence *equally* "against the spirit of the GPL"? arguably so!
(DIR) Post #AXxq0iVVpjIDXo4kbo by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:36:08Z
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@passthejoe but here's the thing: if we don't do anything that's "against the spirit of the GPL", how the hell do we have a business model?in an Ideal World, the clones would exist, but everyone with money who wanted to use RHEL as an end user - not testing their app for compatibility, or whatever - would pay for it.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0jIQtqQNzWxorQ by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:37:15Z
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@passthejoe we don't really care about Joe Enthusiast using a clone. we don't care about Wholesome Hard-Up Charity using a clone. we care about Large Fortune 500 Company paying us for 100 licenses and running 10,000 clone instances.if you're not going to do anything "against the spirit of the GPL", how do you stop that?
(DIR) Post #AXxq0jyGOJsw5GXE3s by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:38:42Z
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@passthejoe of course, the world doesn't owe us a business model. the GPL doesn't owe us a business model. bkuhn doesn't owe us a business model. I get that. If you think "companies that want to deal with free software at all must have 100% free-software-cool business models or they shouldn't exist", I get that. debian is great! if anyone just can't stomach RH's existence and uses debian or something else 100% non-commercial instead, great, I totally respect that.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0kkpTkjWVtG0lE by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:40:29Z
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@passthejoe but if you think it can possibly be beneficial for a company to do F/OSS stuff...it turns out that it's just really goddamn hard to have a business model while being 100% cool. because people will take advantage of you. I wish they didn't! I wish we didn't *have* to pull the kinda stuff bkuhn doesn't like! but they do.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0lPx0rcuZQUqrA by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T00:43:24Z
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@passthejoe summary of this long thread: I do kinda buy the idea that some of what we do around RHEL to keep the business going and fund all the cool F/OSS stuff we do is not 100% free software philosophically cool. but: I think the value we provide to F/OSS is real and I *do not know* how we do that otherwise. so I don't think it's "wrong", at least not as clear-cut as that. taken as a whole the overall situation just feels more complex than 'this is Wrong'.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0mA2FWUQsM3egi by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T01:40:39Z
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@passthejoe bonus thought from a personal angle: say I quit RH over the business model. okay. now where do I go to earn a paycheck which is *better* for F/OSS? arguably, for the moment at least, there's SUSE. but...SUSE is still not profitable, and has never had to deal with clones like RH has.aside from that...who's better? if RH shut down, a few thousand engineers would probably wind up working for Microsoft or Meta or Google instead. would that be a win for F/OSS? I dunno. It's hard.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0mrzc5eT4gclCi by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T02:23:27Z
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@adamw I can't imagine that RH is in any danger of shutting down, and making this change in policy a live-or-die for RH is not something I'm buying.I think the reality is more that RH is doing this a) to sell more RHEL (and I think they will, b) because they can.At the end of the day/month/year, I bet Rocky and Alma will each find a way forward. They won't fold.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0njAQOBbjbVE5Q by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T02:39:10Z
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@passthejoe @adamw I will stick my neck out ever so slightly and say publicly that I am confident this has absolutely nothing to do with greed or a power trip.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0oWRTBbMCQYZtI by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T02:41:46Z
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@passthejoe @adamw Here are some public statements made by a CIQ employee and my personal take on them:https://twitter.com/mairin/status/1682518003936636928
(DIR) Post #AXxq0ot86pkXKnAhFo by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T02:33:58Z
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@adamw It's all well and good for RH employees to defend this decision. Of course they want to get paid, and RH is the biggest Linux company by orders of magnitude.But what about the Fedora volunteer contributor? How should they feel about being a cog in this changing machinery?This situation poses an existential dilemma for Fedora's community.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0pbnQlTjZK4MsK by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T03:15:05Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @adamw Oh, wow. That thread makes me thankful that most of the conversations on Mastodon were far more civil than the standard race to the bottom that is Twitter.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0qSyF40sEEwpl2 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T03:45:39Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @adamw I.... hope I behaved ok.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0qrQm7ZxS6OMsq by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T02:42:53Z
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@passthejoe @adamw Another bit of my personal take https://twitter.com/mairin/status/1682529632317308928
(DIR) Post #AXxq0rADeGbkONBNAW by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T02:34:10Z
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@adamw It's convenient to think of Fedora as wholly separate from Red Hat, but the reality is much more complicated.I don't have an answer here, but the question is in my mind.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0rPSjanj9eJXvc by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T03:49:21Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @adamw Sorry, wasn't meaning to call you out, specifically. I've met most of the people on that thread in real life and can't imagine that conversation going the same way in person. The nature of the platform has everyone assuming the worst of the other and things escalate quickly.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0sSgp4ycPwpdb6 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T03:51:55Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @adamwI I tweet how I talk and think so if I'm an asshole in that thread I can't use the nature of twitter as an excuse
(DIR) Post #AXxq0t9EGv0KXsjbu4 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T03:53:08Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe But maybe it impacts others. I know Jef in real life (well I've met him several times at different events) so I can interpret what he's saying and how he's saying it but I don't know Neil IRL
(DIR) Post #AXxq0tpPk4kSeiTIem by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T02:43:40Z
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@passthejoe @adamw And this is a specific story of my experience with Red Hat and why I am pretty confident in my earlier statement it's not greed or a power triphttps://twitter.com/mairin/status/1682551767068733440
(DIR) Post #AXxq0tvnMLquyVSObQ by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T04:02:08Z
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@mairin @passthejoe I've met him in real life. I've had heated exchanges with him in the past (I'm a big AlmaLinux fan), but now that I've gotten to know him a bit more, I like him. You are both very passionate about the companies you work for and the work you do in that capacity. Unfortunately, your companies aren't currently on great terms (as an understatement). Under different circumstances, I think you'd probably have plenty of grounds for mutual respect.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0vNTytatSfQ1Oi by cloudguy@mastodon.terabyte-computing.com
2023-07-22T04:11:51Z
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@vwbusguy @mairin @passthejoe imagine walking into WalmartImagine demanding all the Walmart branded, Walmart manufactured product, for free, so you could take it to a warehouse where you could stick little labels saying DJR (add the next letter) and then give it away.What would Walmart say?
(DIR) Post #AXxq0wbhPWYnH34tCC by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T04:16:20Z
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@cloudguy @vwbusguy @passthejoe not free but drop shipping is against their policy (as it is against amazons)
(DIR) Post #AXxq0xaJm938J3RIgK by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T04:19:00Z
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@mairin @cloudguy @passthejoe I'm not going to argue on behalf of Rocky. I'm a fan of Fedora and AlmaLinux (who is actually a non-profit) and it's hard to me that there's been so much collateral damage to those projects as a result of this.
(DIR) Post #AXxq0ygNh5Ufi9Hels by cloudguy@mastodon.terabyte-computing.com
2023-07-22T04:21:22Z
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@vwbusguy @mairin @passthejoe I don't see either as a projectRunning rsync, doing a diff and then typing mkiso is not a project
(DIR) Post #AXxq0zV4ec2kFN08mm by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T03:56:24Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe But also. Like. What I'm talking about and reacting to there is what Jeremy Alison said on stage at FOSSY. Not idle tweets
(DIR) Post #AXxq0zjbmZfYyRnkRM by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T04:33:50Z
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@cloudguy @mairin @passthejoe Comments like this help me better understand Neil's defensiveness in that thread.
(DIR) Post #AXxq10cCVbL1hlLLX6 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T04:41:33Z
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@vwbusguy @cloudguy @passthejoe Help me understand: is there a selling point to using a rebuild/downstream beyond it being a "copy of RHEL" ?
(DIR) Post #AXxq11iyNuLj93WGjA by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T17:08:15Z
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@mairin @vwbusguy @cloudguy In my view, the upstream doesn't get to decide the merits of what the downstream does with the code. The license says the code can be reused , and making a value judgement is not part of the equation.RH just needs to say, "We don't want a downstream from this product, and we're legally allowed to restrict access to our source."Don't justify it with critiques of the downstream projects.
(DIR) Post #AXxq12Mg0I6n8C5yc4 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:24:22Z
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@passthejoe @vwbusguy @cloudguy #1 I am not passing judgment on what is done or not done with the code in question downstream.... I am asking what that actually is bc I don't understand. #2 If you want to take something and make a downstream of it, you should probably not rely on using upstream's trademark / brand name on your front page to do it
(DIR) Post #AXxq12uhxlKYpk19eq by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T04:43:25Z
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@vwbusguy @cloudguy @passthejoe Ubuntu is downstream of Debian, but AFAIK Canonical doesn't use the fact they are bug-for-bug compatible with Debian as a selling point, or mention Debian a whole lot in their marketing? They are appreciably different and make a lot of additional development in the OS itself (not the periphery - infra, docs, etc which matter but are not the OS artifact itself)
(DIR) Post #AXxq13BiwUwRgVykBE by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T17:30:34Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @cloudguy Oh, I didn't know about this. Someone didn't follow the standard, "prominent North American Linux vendor"?History is doomed to repeat itself.
(DIR) Post #AXxq14QeKUTVX5yB5E by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:32:40Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy
(DIR) Post #AXxq16Efc0558WNdgm by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T17:35:09Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @cloudguy I'm not a corporation, but I doubt keeping the Berkeley in the various BSD distributions did UCB any harm.
(DIR) Post #AXxq18oC2tgV7H12Ku by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:37:28Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy I've asked repeatedly what value do the rebuilds bring on top of RHEL. Their values seems to be in that they are a copy, and I see their marketing relies on that. I don't see how that is mutually beneficial. The scale of investment is so utterly disproportionate we're talking from the Sun to outside the solar system
(DIR) Post #AXxq1BsCeRfscZumVE by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:38:33Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy Like - general things I see being said are generally correct - *if you completely disregard scale* and it's - at best - simply not fair
(DIR) Post #AXxq1DiLo2ywKbJwQK by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T17:40:42Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @cloudguy What Red Hat sees as value and what Linux users outside of Red Hat see as value are at odds. AlmaLinux regularly contributes upstream which means they are contributing code that is in RHEL right now. Literally had an Important CVE accepted into Stream this week for iperf3.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1F5Qhj2MaT7t2G by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:45:03Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy To be honest, #1 I speak for myself not Red Hat#2 The blog post you are referencing referred to the value of the bits to Red Hat, not their general value, nor the value of the people making contributions#3 The *SCALE*, the sheer scale! And the CVE you reference was weaponized to the max!
(DIR) Post #AXxq1GEgQo289SSn68 by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T17:54:37Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @cloudguy#1 Sure. I mean I've had the same line is questioning over and over from others. I don't get that question from people who don't work at Red Hat. Perspective matters.#2. I wasn't intentionally referencing a blog post?#3. It seems there's a lot of unfortunate bad faith. That contributor is a package maintainer for hundreds of packages in Fedora and EPEL as well. I doubt minimizing his or others voluntary work would motivate others to want to contribute more.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1HdXDtVSUp69TM by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:58:12Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy #1 Well obviously people not working at Red Hat see clear value in getting something of value (RHEL) for free. But when a RHT person asks about value theyre not talking about monetary! They're talking about value to upstream and FOSS generally. It's the same word but different meaning.#2 The talking point being repeated about Red Hat does/doesn't see of value is based on a miunderstanding of a phrase...
(DIR) Post #AXxq1IezPyGRfcmpNY by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T18:02:46Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @cloudguy It's only RHEL for free if the OS is all there is to RHEL. It used to be a clear selling point that you are fundamentally paying for support. I don't think most think in terms of "getting RHEL for free". I think most see an Ansible guide that is based on CentOS, so that's what they installed. There's a much lower barrier to entry, even with Dev Subs.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1JXEAJeKNqA8v2 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T18:03:31Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy
(DIR) Post #AXxq1JefidbWkve5WS by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T17:59:57Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy ... from Mike McGrath's second blog post talking about what Red Hat values. You're "downstream" of it but it's the same point I've seen repeated ad nauseum. #3 I am not minimizing amy individual's work so I apologize if what I said was interpreted that way. There is a scale here that is grossly underappreciated though.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1KI1ML50iy3Vr6 by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T18:06:23Z
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@mairin @vwbusguy @cloudguy Is this on shaky trademark ground? (I'm not a lawyer and genuinely don't know). If it is, RH should do what it needs to do in order to defend its marks.Like @vwbusguy said, I think everybody would/should be happy with the old CentOS language, "North American Linux vendor."
(DIR) Post #AXxq1LLbQVXU0Mjt4q by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T18:11:01Z
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@mairin @vwbusguy @cloudguy Overall, I'm not really here to shout and pout, and if it comes out that way, I apologize. I love the world of free software. Unix opened up a new world for me in college, and that continued with Linux in the 2000s.I've never felt like I had to run the exact RHEL bits, and I think others should similarly open their minds to alternatives.If these changes are in RHEL's best interest, so be it.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1LzJ2tIXzVJaxk by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T18:00:28Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy And I will keep bringing up that scale, because without it there's no one on the other end to receive and integrate the CVE nor anything for it to be integrated into!
(DIR) Post #AXxq1MQxO5PrNGFg3s by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T18:18:17Z
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@mairin @vwbusguy @cloudguy None of these things are being done to make me feel better or worse about #RedHat, #RHEL and #Fedora, but those feelings are there.It would really help Red Hat if the company were to make a concerted, continual effort to highlight the various work it's doing/funding upstream.Maybe the company feels like the work speaks for itself, but that is not the case. RH needs a lot of good PR (and should learn to get ahead of itself on PR regarding these policy shifts).
(DIR) Post #AXxq1OT9osMfgfISlk by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T18:20:45Z
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@mairin @vwbusguy @cloudguy EVERY free-software community has its problems, especially those that make operating systems. Fedora continues to be one of the best. I wish more of the good Fedora vibes would flow downstream along with those software bits.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1OomWTf6ljPjTU by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T18:01:03Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy I can say this without implying there is little to no value of any single contribution or contributor. They are ALL valuable.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1PUxzdPEsZ9QEC by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T18:26:45Z
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@passthejoe @mairin @cloudguy 100% agree. I wish Red Hat could get along with AlmaLinux as well as Fedora has. AlmaLinux has consistently tried to be a good and responsible partner throughout this. It's hard to see them being painted with the same brush as others who have been adverse and overt.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1QZG1AQsCAAMYS by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T18:28:56Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy Alma needs to be careful about what they say. 🙊
(DIR) Post #AXxq1RXsNmvDEAWm2a by vwbusguy@mastodon.online
2023-07-22T18:34:57Z
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@mairin @passthejoe @cloudguy They literally have been the most careful what they say group involved in all of this. I very much wish certain RH VP's had been more careful about what they had said.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1SubImh3SwAR6G by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T18:36:57Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy I agree, and yet, they have said some things they absolutely should not have in good faith. I have witnessed it.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1U86m35nF7UjnE by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T18:37:28Z
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@vwbusguy @passthejoe @cloudguy They can be the most careful / respectful and still make mistakes they need to own.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1Urq21fjWwtG4W by passthejoe@ruby.social
2023-07-22T19:01:25Z
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@mairin @vwbusguy @cloudguy #AlmaLinux, #RockyLinux and #OracleLinux are going to figure out ways to go forward. No question about that.It's RH's prerogative to continue changing the things on the ground that these projects depend on -- and maybe that instability is a RH strategy to throw off the downstreams it sees as undesirable competitors.In my mind, all of this unrest damages #RedHat, #RHEL and #Fedora. I can't attest to how much it helps financially.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1VczCjNztAwuYq by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T19:04:39Z
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@passthejoe I agree it's a tradeoff to some extent. the way the folks who look at the numbers see it is, the pain we feel from usage of the clones in situations where we figure people ought to be paying us is greater than the benefit we get from people testing their software on clones, enthusiasts learning on clones, all those arguments people have made.I don't know if they're right! It's a hard calculus to run. But by the same token I can't say they're wrong.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1WNQQ4X6DCfzwe by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T19:09:27Z
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@adamw @passthejoe It would really be better if everyone acted in good faith, and it's just not fair to keep pointing the finger at Red Hat when Red Hat has no desire to change things up and cause distress and brand damage to themselves for no good reason. Red Hat is not dumb. This is all in response to bad behavior. Behavior that should have stopped before it came to this. Those responsible know.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1XFfAPuyvQ3JU8 by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T19:13:12Z
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@mairin also I think to an extent we have to look in a mirror and say, we haven't been SUPER clear about our signals here. what do we think is "ok" for clones? well! we bought centos, then we ran it for a while, then we kinda decided to turn it into something else! we said we were cool with the new clones, now we're not! there *are* reasons behind all those moves, but we *can* kinda look like we're changing the deal a lot, here.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1Xd3lQdK5yzzxA by adamw@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T19:10:03Z
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@passthejoe I'd also say this is a tension that's been going on for *decades*. there have been several rounds of previous clone controversy. us buying centos was one of them! (personal take: I *still* don't know why we did that). the kernel source stuff back around 2010 was another. this isn't exactly a shocking new development, but kinda...another round in an ongoing thing. internally it's the same. we are kinda constantly going over the same ground about the clones.
(DIR) Post #AXxq1Y8bs7s1fplC88 by jbowen@mast.hpc.social
2023-07-22T20:52:38Z
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@adamw Thank you for saying that. I don't know where the lines are between honest good intention, trying to put a positive spin on a rough situation, and gaslighting are, but from the outside it has certainly seemed like RH has been sending mixed signals. @mairin
(DIR) Post #AXxs9gnHlxwykFnLrk by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T21:16:52Z
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@jbowen @adamw It really helps to talk to people and not assume malice.