Post AXpvXk2U6WWwMENxLM by lps@masto.1146.nohost.me
(DIR) More posts by lps@masto.1146.nohost.me
(DIR) Post #AXpv5h33d8hmyQHMIq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T01:12:01Z
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It only took one term for Biden - who voted for the Dubya Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan - to become a war criminal on par with Bush and Blair. Even Agent Orange, for all his many, many flaws, was not (as far as I'm aware) a war criminal. This cross-party panel don't all agree on much, but they all agree that cluster bombs are immoral and unjustified, in Ukraine or anywhere:https://theworkinggroup.podbean.com/e/the-working-group-with-winston-peters-simon-wilson-and-damien-grant/#JoeBiden #GeorgeWBush #ClusterBombs #Ukraine #WarCrimes
(DIR) Post #AXpvXk2U6WWwMENxLM by lps@masto.1146.nohost.me
2023-07-19T01:17:09Z
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@strypey not to mention drones, that never seems to come up...the war crimes committed with them is horrific.
(DIR) Post #AXpxOhW0Jnsjpe0fKa by Beachbum@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-07-19T01:37:32Z
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@strypey It’s fair since Russia is using them. I’m not against it. We need to assure that they win this war, and quickly. Prolonging it by withholding weapons is immoral as well. IMHO and I’m not for war in the many theaters I’ve lived through.
(DIR) Post #AXpzzM0BT053jUjPAO by jstogdill@mstdn.social
2023-07-19T02:06:51Z
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@strypey Ridiculous. The Ukrainians are in an existential fight for their own homeland against imperial aggression. They can use the weapons of their choosing on their own territory.
(DIR) Post #AXq4fUR4trkRrvesRk by tmv@mastodo.fi
2023-07-19T02:59:07Z
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@strypey Biden is not using them in Ukraine, Ukrainians are, and they asked to get them. It's not war crime to use them in your own country against invading army. Maybe Russian army should f off from Ukraine so that no weapons would be needed.
(DIR) Post #AXqJMIO4yCpqJOYqm0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T05:43:57Z
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@lps > not to mention drones, that never seems to come up...the war crimes committed with them is horrificTrue, but hardly news. Obama was assassinating people with drones a decade ago.
(DIR) Post #AXqJbM9rEWQSLl5gHI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T05:46:40Z
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@Beachbum > It’s fair since Russia is using themOh, of course. That's why it was OK for the Allies to set up Concentration Camps and gas chambers for German prisoners of war. My mistake : ?
(DIR) Post #AXqK2Nwgh9jziFopRA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T05:51:33Z
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@Beachbum > It’s fair since Russia is using themOh, of course. That's why it was OK for the Allies to set up Concentration Camps and gas chambers for German prisoners of war. My mistake : /> We need to assure that they win this war, and quicklyCluster bombs don't help with this. They just leave huge piles of unexploded ordinance lying around, which will be killing both Russian and Ukrainian civilians - especially curious children - for decades to come.That's Biden's legacy.
(DIR) Post #AXqL4irI0ocJ6eyLKq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T06:03:10Z
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@jstogdill > The Ukrainians are in an existential fight for their own homeland against imperial aggression. They can use the weapons of their choosing on their own territory.I was commenting on Biden's morality, not theirs.But you're OK with Ukrainians using nukes? Biological weapons? Is rape OK now for the Ukrainian army as long as the victims are Russian military personnel? Is it OK for them to ignore the Geneva Convention too and target Russian civilians?See:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110739186863743998
(DIR) Post #AXqLBmq1c9rDTZkWAq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T06:04:27Z
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@tmv > Biden is not using themBiden supplied them.> It's not war crime to use them in your own country against invading armyI don't think you understand the phrase "war crime".> Maybe Russian army should f off from Ukraine so that no weapons would be neededWell of course, but this is entirely beside the point.
(DIR) Post #AXqLFDdIRtEjRmQrPE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T06:05:04Z
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@Taci7 > I love it when vatnik slobsYou what now?
(DIR) Post #AXqqCcPSyAfq0ACf6e by tmv@mastodo.fi
2023-07-19T11:51:54Z
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@strypey Ok so how is it war crime then if Ukraine uses them? (Or even Biden supplying) Neither Ukraine or Russia have agreed to not to use them. (And neither has US, but that's not very relevant)
(DIR) Post #AXqr1h6VHCHVKSgjjs by tmv@mastodo.fi
2023-07-19T12:00:24Z
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@strypey @Beachbum Those areas are already heavily mined etc. and not safe for civilians for years even without Ukraine using cluster munitions. Russian army is currently killing civilians in Ukraine, so having them there is not exactly safe either, and cluster bombs does help with that. I might change my mind if I saw at least one Ukrainian being against using them but everyone I've seeing talking about it has been for it.
(DIR) Post #AXrZmkrZVtoUa6xFY0 by jstogdill@mstdn.social
2023-07-19T20:22:37Z
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@strypey Nice straw men you have there. Thanks for reminding me never to reason with a tankie.
(DIR) Post #AXraJoytDvk0uS92Z6 by jstogdill@mstdn.social
2023-07-19T20:28:39Z
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@strypey That's quite a collection of strawmen you have there. Equating the use of cluster muntions to rape? Really? Nice good faith argument.It is not criminal for the Ukranians to use cluster munitions on their own land to eject an imperial power, and Biden is not a war criminal for providing them. Neither country is party to the treaty preventing their use.
(DIR) Post #AXrflnrJUNm7JAlNXU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T21:29:46Z
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@tmv> how is it war crime then if Ukraine uses them?... Neither Ukraine or Russia have agreed to not to use themThere are conflicting opinions on this. But there is a longstanding body of international law criminalising munitions that are known to cause harm to civilians, eg landmines. I agree with the contention that cluster bombs breach such laws:https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/cluster-bombs-ukraine-biden-congress/
(DIR) Post #AXrg55vaX7pwqlxgFU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T21:33:16Z
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@tmv> Those areas are already heavily mined etc. and not safe for civilians for yearsThis too is a war crime. I didn't realise anyone still made or used landmines.> Russian army is currently killing civilians in Ukraine... and cluster bombs does help with thatHow?> I might change my mind if I saw at least one Ukrainian being against using themUkrainians don't make international law, and are hardly in the position right now to think objectively about long term consequences.@Beachbum
(DIR) Post #AXrgS9zxZ70y8R0Mb2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T21:37:19Z
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@jstogdill> Equating the use of cluster muntions to rape?Equating them would be wrong, since cluster bombs are much worse than rape. Being raped (by itself) doesn't remove people's limbs, or kill them.The point of the examples is that the presence of an invading aggressor doesn't make ethical considerations go away.> It is not criminal for the Ukranians to use cluster munitionsSee:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110742876094471820
(DIR) Post #AXrgmYAHQOJgsTYSAa by jstogdill@mstdn.social
2023-07-19T21:11:06Z
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@strypey what’s fascinating is that, as you are not effected either way, it’s the Ukrainian use of cluster munitions you are outraged while the Russians have been using them all along. It’s kind of a tell.
(DIR) Post #AXrgmYwqVpAHJ6HErw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T21:41:04Z
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@jstogdill> it’s the Ukrainian use of cluster munitions you are outraged while the Russians have been using them all alongIt's the first I've heard of cluster bombs being involved in the conflict. I'm equally horrified whoever uses them. The unexploded munitions they scatter will not discriminate between Ukrainian and Russian children in the decades to come.I've been opposed to cluster bombs since the US used them in their post-911 imperial invasions in the Middle East.
(DIR) Post #AXrheUMdlt9MjB3XhQ by jstogdill@mstdn.social
2023-07-19T21:50:47Z
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@strypey “t's the first I've heard of cluster bombs being involved in the conflict. I'm equally horrified whoever uses them.”Then you rely on fascist Russian propaganda to decide when to be selectively outraged.
(DIR) Post #AXrhnrqVptGUA4V6QK by jstogdill@mstdn.social
2023-07-19T21:52:31Z
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@strypey “Equating them would be wrong, since cluster bombs are much worse than rape. Being raped (by itself) doesn't remove people's limbs, or kill them.”🤮I think I’ve had enough of your bullshit self righteousness from your safe perch far from the danger of raping and torturing Russian soldiers.
(DIR) Post #AXrllxHf2xQKGRXiRU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T22:37:00Z
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@jstogdill> you are not effected either wayAnd you are?
(DIR) Post #AXrlysT2GXSj5g1bsW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T22:39:21Z
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@jstogdill> Then you rely on fascist Russian propaganda to decide when to be selectively outraged... or I don't watch the corporate media news much and sometimes take a while to catch up with things?You're making a *lot* of unwarranted assumptions here, and in danger of crossing the line from strident to rude. Fair warning, people who are rude here get muted for a week.
(DIR) Post #AXrm83EVbmvr5ObXjU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T22:41:02Z
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@jstogdillAm I wrong? Are you going to arguing that surviving rape is worse than being maimed or killed by cluster bomblets? Or are getting aggressive and rude because you don't have a counter-argument?
(DIR) Post #AXrp7ZJV9FDG9fOwOO by tmv@mastodo.fi
2023-07-19T23:14:30Z
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@strypey @Beachbum At least Russia still uses landmines in Ukraine. As you said in other comment, there are conflicting opinions whether using cluster bombs is a war crime or not (Russia has used them against civilians, which is). Long term consequences fall 100% on Ukraine, so they should be the ones deciding. I'd assume they have the biggest interest about it, so quite weird to say they cannot think objectively. (We can't either, people are bad at it in general.)
(DIR) Post #AXs1TJSZyFsmo4mYrY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-20T01:32:48Z
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@tmv> Long term consequences fall 100% on Ukraine, so they should be the ones decidingFair point. But that doesn't justify Biden's decision to supply an indiscriminate weapon that's been banned by UN Treaty. The fact that neither the US nor Russia has ratified this treaty is a further indictment their indiscriminate warmongering, not a justification.@Beachbum