Post AXaeksoJG4LCdRP41g by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AXaTlYTt9PHsQoVkci by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:24:57Z
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Having read and participated in the #Threads defederation debate, and I’ve noticed that there are two quite different projects going on in the #Fediverse, and they don't have the same goals.The first is about creating a social network that is a nicer or safer place to be. A place with far less trolling, harassment, and fewer dickheads.The project has has pretty much achieved its goals. Why federate with Threads? It will just bring threadheads causing trouble. Growth is not important.1/5
(DIR) Post #AXaTpM0dSk7AuQdinA by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:25:33Z
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The second project is about breaking the monopoly large corporations have on our social media, in order to reduce the stranglehold they have on our societies. For this project growth is very important. If the #Fediverse doesn't grow to mega-scale while corporate social networks do, it has failed.People in this group are split on federating with #Threads. Some think federation will open us up to embrace-extend-extinguish tactics, while other think it is an opportunity for growth. 2/5
(DIR) Post #AXaTs6ylnhEBAA597o by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:25:53Z
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I am definitely in the last group. I want to see the #Fediverse crush the corporate overlords, and I see federating with Threads as an opportunity for growth.I acknowledge many valid points for the other positions, however.For the people that want a social network that that is nicer and safer, being on a server that defederates #Threads seems like a good choice. This is precisely the thing federative structure is good for. 3/5
(DIR) Post #AXaTtEiuUe8NTFCT7g by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:26:17Z
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For those who want growth, but worry about EEE, I ask, how do we expect it to happen?While #Twitter imploded over the last week and a bit, we’ve seen close to the absolute best-case scenario for growth. #Mastodon grew by something like half a million users, but #Threads grew by that much per HOUR.The current status-quo just isn't working, and something drastic need to be done to make it work. Increasing the network effects of the #Fediverse by bringing in Threads could be it.4/5
(DIR) Post #AXaTvPIKA25ApsndvU by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:26:30Z
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Anyway, the point of this thread is to explain why federating with #Threads shouldn't be taken as apathy or worse an endorsement of the Zuckiverse. For my part, it's the opposite. I want to bleed them dry. I think defederating gives us no chance of that, while federating gives us some chance. 5/5
(DIR) Post #AXaUVjj7fhcMd8eqLw by malin@dice.camp
2023-07-11T14:33:24Z
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@john I saw a report suggesting it's not technically possible for Threads to federate:https://hardcoredevs.com/fediverse-interactions-and-their-consecuencesThere are other concerns, such as moderation. Mastodon instances typically defederate with any instance which has the moderation standards of Facebook. So if we federate, I don't see how anyone could remain federated for long.
(DIR) Post #AXaVCMtSRPJEGYouu0 by Alon@mastodon.social
2023-07-11T14:40:59Z
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@john I'd argue it the other way. People who want a social network without Nazis are the ones most interested in growth, because for us, it's annoying that there's no content outside the interests of the US/European tech-literate early adopters. That's why we praise for the Fediverse for finally maturing enough that it was possible to follow the Wagner insurrection from here. In contrast, the anti-big tech people, the ones who say "enshittification," think small is beautiful and hate growth.
(DIR) Post #AXaVIXij6FITaBkFqi by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:42:16Z
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@malin Although I am not an expert, I am unconvinced by the technical arguments. @Gargron isn’t ringing alarm bells over this.As for moderation, there's one advantage to Threads being so big - it's not much work for individual people to block it is they don't like it (it's not like the situation where there are like fifty freezepeach instances where trolls jump around).Also, I think you're overestimating how strict Mastodon admins are, those who block more talk about it a lot more.
(DIR) Post #AXaVQlf999Sz8lzb4i by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:43:40Z
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@Alon Interesting, because I’ve seen the opposite, obviously. I mean, both can be true to a certain extent, right?
(DIR) Post #AXaVqVYbeIYAifCuSe by trevorflowers@widerweb.org
2023-07-11T14:48:23Z
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@john It's great that you recognize that you're willing to turn the fediverse into an unsafe place in order to stick it to a few rich dudes.
(DIR) Post #AXaWArBWwlwxaY7Ihc by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:51:59Z
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@trevorflowers That's a very ungenerous reading of what I'm saying. Many Fediverse servers will defederate from Threads, and that's great. My server being federated does not affect that.
(DIR) Post #AXaWpd9q0MgnxMle2S by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-07-11T14:51:57Z
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@nev I admit to being curious where this goes with @john volunteering to be tribute. Maybe his instance users will tolerate the abuse? From my pov, I'm glad we are not planning to federate. I like the amount of moderating I am called on to do.
(DIR) Post #AXaWpdpfUq9M36L3Eu by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T14:59:16Z
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@artcollisions @nev My moderation position is that I'm not going to make the decision for everyone on my server, when they are adults and can make the decision for themselves. Blocking a single server is a pretty easy task for an individual.
(DIR) Post #AXaWyd5BeYWUKWsoG8 by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-07-11T15:00:54Z
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@john So you are federated with all possible instances? @nev
(DIR) Post #AXaXXrtMaIM0Ob9igS by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:07:19Z
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@artcollisions @nev I have defeded some troll instances where there is literally nothing of value, and no moderation (or the mods are the trolls).Threads obviously doesn't fit in that category. If the moderation burden increases significantly, I may silence it, and if it's still unsustainable I'll consider de-feding (with consultation).
(DIR) Post #AXaYK7dXLhUL7wlKPQ by Alon@mastodon.social
2023-07-11T15:15:51Z
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@john I guess so? It's just, *all* the #fedipact posts I've seen were from people who care little for news content. One of them literally said "cities are more convenient but villages offer more freedom."
(DIR) Post #AXaYXtN5BTl4wDdFKK by kolya@social.cologne
2023-07-11T15:18:33Z
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@john There is also a technical aspect to this: A lot of people want Mastodon to be a global marketplace like Twitter was. They want reach.Others (like me) are quite happy that reach is capped by what instances know about. If I write sth stupid no global mob will come banging down my door. OTOH even searching for a hash-tag often doesn't reveal much. You basically have to find good content through friends of friends. Which feels very humane to me, but utterly annoying to others.
(DIR) Post #AXaYrdUrulGXUogkOe by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-07-11T15:21:44Z
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@john "But Threads grew by that much per HOUR." <- No it didn't. Those are entirely made up numbers by the same party who destroyed entire institutions with made up numbers ("pivot to video"). Stop citing them as fact.
(DIR) Post #AXaYtvqkeL8yzo1EDg by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:22:06Z
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@kolya Yeah, absolutely. The chance of getting dogpiled on Twitter was pretty chilling in my opinion, and I definitely see value in putting the brakes on in that respectLuckily we can have both worlds coexist, right?
(DIR) Post #AXaZB8dANrGnYerwgK by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:25:42Z
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@dalias Those numbers are based on third-party estimates, but even if it was a quarter of that, so what? Are you saying that Mastodon is growing fast enough to win the growth war?
(DIR) Post #AXaZR5FGjqnhgwIKEy by kolya@social.cologne
2023-07-11T15:28:34Z
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@john Yes. The people who want reach will gravitate towards huge instances and that solves part of the problem. But we still share the same software. And they will put pressure on Mastodon to bridge this disconnect, so they can get ALL OF THE CONTENT.
(DIR) Post #AXaaF4CEuckUuxiAGe by Akki@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:36:36Z
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@john I much rather a nice place than a crowded for the sake of numbers place, though. And from what I've seen of reports from Threads it's a happy TERF positive wasteland which does not sit well with me at all. I guess if I wanna stay here I just have to learn to block the instance when it comes.
(DIR) Post #AXaaGAP1K7NQSIDKd6 by jakemiller@federate.social
2023-07-11T15:36:44Z
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@john @Alon I think pretty much everyone on the Fediverse today has been selected for “doesn’t like Nazis.” Likewise, users who are Fedi-exclusive don’t like a lot of what Big Social stands for, though some cross post. Threderating is both opportunity and risk. We must understand their analysis of the situation. We should expect Meta to pull shenanigans over time. So, we should be prepared and thoughtful. Don’t let them control infrastructure; be ready to cut.
(DIR) Post #AXaau0HeMf70ehlK40 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:44:55Z
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@Akki Fair enough. Luckily, it's absolutely trivial to individually block a server, in the web interface under a post from Threads it will be ••• -> Block domain threads.netBam, no more Threads.
(DIR) Post #AXab0IKICAxOLpzwKO by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:46:02Z
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@jakemiller @Alon Vigilance will definitely be necessary, both in terms of moderation and protecting the ActivityPub spec from being perverted.
(DIR) Post #AXabO7wISvxr5Q8e7k by Akki@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:50:24Z
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@john hmm must be a web client thing, Tusky just has a block user option with the ... Button.
(DIR) Post #AXacS7UmEgbillBzFo by Akki@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T15:56:14Z
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@john if I go to the profile of someone I can mute their server but not block so hmm Tusky needs to make a move there
(DIR) Post #AXacS87Pv1W2hbGqTw by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:02:11Z
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@Akki I saw on Github someone requested the domain block feature, but it got merged with the mute feature and then marked “done”. So they’ve got it wrong and might not realise. Annoying.But, yeah, as I said, it's super simple in the web interface.
(DIR) Post #AXacuQCMIBfGsr4YhU by malin@dice.camp
2023-07-11T16:07:25Z
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@john I don't fully understand the technical report, so I can't back it, but it seems like a concern at least.Times may be changing for moderation...but if we put together all the worst Facebook groups, there's enough there to rival the content which made everyone defederate from Gab.
(DIR) Post #AXadWtn0in6lfBZ0S0 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:14:27Z
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@malin Maybe, but Gab was pretty much created for them, while Threads will be mostly normies. (It will be interesting to see how moderation goes in Threads, it could be stricter because they can alway claim people have an out.)We’ll see.
(DIR) Post #AXaeksoJG4LCdRP41g by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:27:41Z
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@john They aren’t even aware that people are trying to have a negotiation over mutually compatible standards of moderation. The biggest sticking point is LibsOf— that account has caused violence in the past. Meta has taken some things down but don’t care to just reject them from existing— is it sufficient to ban that one account? will it turn into whackamole? I have no idea— but I see utility in federating if only to make the people there aware of what they could end up missing.
(DIR) Post #AXafG3rgCyajteqY9A by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:33:50Z
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@john So I don’t see how anything in the non-silo’d fediverse can have any impact on these other spaces if every server simply refuses to let them in at all. It’s an invitation than can be revoked: that could be over hate speech or simply too much spam. How do we feel about brands trying to be “relatable” all over the place? should such post be tagged somehow? It will be messy. But that’s unavoidable and part of the point.
(DIR) Post #AXafsAZdiFDLhza0au by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:40:40Z
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@futurebird yeah, a game of whack-a-mole is my moderation fear.
(DIR) Post #AXagCmrv2jCYGlxeW8 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:44:17Z
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@apophis @Akki Ah, is this misnamed then?
(DIR) Post #AXagrGnnAdIYgpKnYm by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T16:51:28Z
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@apophis @Akki Well, that's annoying.
(DIR) Post #AXajIgwaHeW5UheNe4 by trevorflowers@widerweb.org
2023-07-11T17:19:02Z
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@john I'm trying hard to see how else to read what you've written. In the third toot in your thread you wrote that you're clearly in the "growth and replacing corporate SM" camp and not in the "keep it safe camp". What am I missing?
(DIR) Post #AXalJ1Zlm3otOLGVrU by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T17:41:32Z
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@trevorflowers You’ve reduced the concern about corporate control over the attention and expression of huge swathes of society to my desire to ”stick it to a few rich dudes" (which I don't give a shit about, by the way).Secondly, you equating my desire to see willing people federate with Threads as “turn[ing] the Fediverse into an unsafe place" when I literally said servers where people don't want to federate shouldn’t.
(DIR) Post #AXao8ORugv590cDGfQ by trevorflowers@widerweb.org
2023-07-11T18:13:04Z
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@john Ah, ok. I think I see the disconnect. I assumed that you were trying to stick it to rich dudes but it seems that instead you think that the people on corporate social media need your help. They don't. They're empowered folks choosing the usual cycle of "jump on a new platform, wait for enshittification, repeat". The people who aren't aware of the fediverse are busy doing other things and aren't bothered enough by corporate SM to spend time looking for alternatives. No white knights needed.
(DIR) Post #AXayd9KVxBe2dU3ZCa by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-07-11T20:10:49Z
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@john I suppose the question here is *for what reason* is it desirable to grow the Fediverse to many users. I do not think it is an end in itself. In general, if growing to many users requires taking an action that works against the purpose for which we were growing to many users for in the first place, then maybe that action is the wrong one.
(DIR) Post #AXb2bOPhImAuectmN6 by notsoloud@expressional.social
2023-07-11T18:36:13Z
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@AlonI think you're a bit unfair to the 'enshittification' concept.It is not about size or growth, it is about the abuse of the monopoly power derived from network effects.The Fediverse is (to me) explicitly an attempt to achieve network effects through size, all while denying abusability.The three crucial success factors are:1) The network is a protocol, not a domain name2) The ability to switch instance while preserving connections3) Size (yes, big is beautiful)@john
(DIR) Post #AXb2bP2gxnMobZ8v9U by notsoloud@expressional.social
2023-07-11T18:40:05Z
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@AlonFollowing up I'll say that the one issue with Threads I'm watching (from distance) with the greatest interest is not whether messages will transfer to and from the Fediverse. It is whether Threads users can move their account to a mastodon instance and keep their followers (and preferably their Instagram account).@john
(DIR) Post #AXb2bPnq8V54xnCZdo by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T20:55:00Z
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@notsoloud @Alon the CEO of instagram has specifically pointed this out as a benefit in interviews, so I would expect it. At least, until it becomes a real problem for them!
(DIR) Post #AXbCWp4lk8ejRLZLlo by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T22:46:36Z
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@futurebird In the demi-spam issue, people have to follow the accounts of those companies for them to appear on the timeline, and I suppose we could silence them. Their probably wont be very many.
(DIR) Post #AXbEYWHInu95cwMtkG by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-07-11T20:19:32Z
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@john You suggest the goal is to "break the monopoly large corporations have on our social media". If large corporations gain market power over the fediverse, at what point does growth in the fediverse go from averting a monopoly to simply being one of the market segments in which the monopoly is playing out?
(DIR) Post #AXbEYWssYCCfVTwuJc by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-11T23:09:18Z
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@mcc This is a fair point, and one avenue for failure, for sure (maybe even a likely one). To answer your other toot, part of the point of averting the monopoly is to avoid everyone being at the mercy of a of a couple or even a single algorithm, which seems like a pretty dangerous situation to me. If the (non-Threads) Fediverse cannot meaningfully resist that by growing large enough it will have failed at a central task.
(DIR) Post #AXbWrZyn44KxmewoFc by rakyat@hachyderm.io
2023-07-12T02:24:30Z
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@john Also most people have people they want to keep up with, people who are on Threads but have zero idea about Mastodon. Some of us happen to want a safe space where we’re away from hurtful people, and there are plenty of instances that offer exactly that.
(DIR) Post #AXcKNUoug5A8nrAzTc by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-12T11:49:13Z
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@apophis This reads like you’re trying to entertain an audience at my expense, rather than have a conversation or advance any particular ideas.
(DIR) Post #AXcLcppkvpwSH1Rs0G by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-12T12:03:16Z
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@trevorflowers Now you're assuming that I'm white-knighting, which is just as ungenerous a read.I live in a society (heck, a planet), where a huge number of people get their information and have their political discussions on platforms that are controlled by an absolutely tiny group of people who have very suspect views and motivations. This is not a good situation for us all to be in and I’d like to change it.
(DIR) Post #AXcVkLjFkC0KlNd2NE by trevorflowers@widerweb.org
2023-07-12T13:56:19Z
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@john You write that it's ungenerous to see your actions as white-knighting and then in the very next paragraph you write that many people are having a problem and that you'd like to change it. Do you see the irony?
(DIR) Post #AXcWFr0pTzVClRs9Pk by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-12T14:02:22Z
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@trevorflowers the problem is society wide, and I live in that society, so I would like to change it.Honestly, I don’t think we’re arguing about anything substantive anymore. If you think my motivations for running a server and choosing not to cut it off from a huge section of society (that includes people who are my friends, relatives, and colleagues) is just me being a big dickhead with a saviour complex, you do you. I don’t see the point in this.
(DIR) Post #AXch1xHiSrEnewLWYC by trevorflowers@widerweb.org
2023-07-12T16:02:56Z
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@john The main distinctions between white-knighting and progressive helping is whether the other people asked for help and whether the action plan comes from those people. The white knight shows up without being called and wants to provide whatever solution they love to provide. But yeah, this thread isn't going anywhere.
(DIR) Post #AXczAesc3qgwMIu6eO by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-12T19:26:14Z
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@apophis well, you’ve certainly convinced me.