Post AXOSxryZUKKArk1n28 by gratefulwolf@archaeo.social
(DIR) More posts by gratefulwolf@archaeo.social
(DIR) Post #AXLpdDaRewM1HTz7iq by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T12:48:47Z
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I’ve been thinking about (Meta/Facebook/Instagram)’s #Threads joining the #Fediverse, and what it means for Sauropods.win. My instinct is to allow federation and see how it goes. I don't think we can win the scale war in the short term by cutting them off, but I hope we can bleed them long-term as they screw up.Thoughts?
(DIR) Post #AXLq0D35pEyoGzLciO by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-07-04T12:53:06Z
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@john can you elaborate on the long term thoughts? I'm all for inclusion if it really benefits people in the long run.
(DIR) Post #AXLqX0XtKiaZ3EOQTI by AmyIsCoolz@mastodon.world
2023-07-04T12:59:11Z
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@john I think it might be a good idea to Federate but is monitor if they do anything dirty
(DIR) Post #AXLqozil8cnNhp3LiC by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:01:19Z
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@artcollisions I want federated social media for everyone — and I don't see how defederating Threads will help with that. They are going to get big, and probably really fast. Most people going there will not really consider Mastodon. Saying federated give people exposure to the notion that you can have the same thing free of Big Social Media.Every time there's some sort of scandal (which there will be), people will find it easier to move, because they are staying within the same network.
(DIR) Post #AXLr2FebD9sysxQdLk by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:03:53Z
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@AmyIsCoolz I mean, they’re Facebook, so they'll do something dirty alright, but most of it will be internal.I don't see how defederating helps much. Most of Mastodon can be scraped for data anyway.
(DIR) Post #AXLr8xiuH6VlImdwoq by AmyIsCoolz@mastodon.world
2023-07-04T13:05:55Z
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@john Yup I understand. I don't trust facebook either! I have intentionally avoid their stuff even though it's popular here
(DIR) Post #AXLrSlzLc9JohNmPw0 by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-07-04T13:09:50Z
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@john But will they move?
(DIR) Post #AXLrj4J7GzFw9AnSyG by freetoken@mastodon.social
2023-07-04T13:12:01Z
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@john The rest of the Fediverse will gain FAR FAR more from Meta joining, than Meta will ever gain from the current Fediverse user base.
(DIR) Post #AXLrl9iQ8X99V0czp2 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:12:09Z
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@artcollisions Some will, some of the time. They're more likely to move than if they're completely cut off (look at what it takes to move people off Twitter!).
(DIR) Post #AXLrpRfnJR6ALtReeu by mike@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:12:23Z
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@john I agree we should pre-emptively pass judgement. Let 'em in and see what happens. But if there is a tsunami of crud, or if server costs spike, you should feel free to defederate at the drop of a hat.
(DIR) Post #AXLrxrWz3cDKrjKzOi by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-07-04T13:15:30Z
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@john I do not understand how people are so reluctant to leave Twitter. It's been toxic there for years. As soon as there was a critical mass leaving, I jumped ship. Plus, you know, other things were motivating factors.
(DIR) Post #AXLt3FlIUk9rQ0APlA by llewelly@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:27:39Z
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@john one problem with federating with them is they'll probably use any data (such as art) they get to train their machine learning crap. related question: if you choose "federate but silence" how much and what kind of data do they get?
(DIR) Post #AXLt70eyaMXvjs09ku by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:28:06Z
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@mike the stuff we get from there will only include what people on sauropods.win follow, so I’m not too worried about volume/crud.I am more worried about embrace/extend/extinguish, but I think we can weather that (the Fediverse is highly politically motivated in that respect).
(DIR) Post #AXLuFGFkaucwN3hWCW by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:30:01Z
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@llewelly they can get that via scraping right now though, right?Silence just means posts from Threads won’t show up in public timelines. It doesn’t really affect outgoing data.
(DIR) Post #AXLunAorIrgLMeIEkq by AmyIsCoolz@mastodon.world
2023-07-04T13:27:02Z
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@artcollisions @john I don't understand either... but apparently (I say apparently) Twitter is still a better place to post art? I don't really know it's what I heard
(DIR) Post #AXLunBQn1q1VGI2WsS by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:32:20Z
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@AmyIsCoolz @artcollisions erm… maybe. Twitter is still way bigger than the Fediverse , so just about anything gets more likes/retweets.Reaction to my non-dinosaur related artwork has been better here, for what an anecdote is worth.
(DIR) Post #AXLvNpMm1mnFXldP3A by llewelly@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:44:23Z
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@john I'm familiar with that kind of argument. Back in about 2009, that was what originally caused me to give up opposition to facebook, and get a facebook account anyway. Looking back on it - that was the wrong choice, even if it was true.
(DIR) Post #AXLvRf1kPVOEdTcyJs by mike@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:45:28Z
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@john Yes, I think EEE can't really work here, because even if they do the first two Es then ... what? How could they extinguish? I don't see a route.
(DIR) Post #AXLvtTVSpzWz0sn2zQ by lelehier@sup.lelehier.de
2023-07-04T13:38:14.017Z
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@freetoken@mastodon.social @john@sauropods.win But isn't one main selling point of Fedi (at elast in the current state) that you have your distance to any Meta service?And what exactly are we looking at when we talk about gaining from Meta. If we just consider user growth, you're most probably right.At the same time, we let a huge company, known for their extreme obsession with user data, join Fedi. A huge portion of Fedi users came here to have their data not saved on servers of these kinds of companies.In the end, it's every instance's decision how they treat the current situation and both federating/defederating are valid options imo.
(DIR) Post #AXLvtUD4DsPRC7BrxA by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:46:13Z
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@lelehier @freetoken people with open profiles (the vast majority) have their data on the open internet anyway. I don’t think joining Mastodon for privacy reasons is a big win for most people. What it has always been about for me was breaking the monopoly large Silicon Valley companies had on people’s online expression and attention. I am unconvinced defederating Threads furthers that goal.
(DIR) Post #AXLw1WBsk3MdeeSxFI by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:49:26Z
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@mike yeah, I suppose they could get into the ActivityPub standard and make bend it to their purposes eventually, but it would take forever, require very smart manoeuvres and be resisted all the way along. Then what?
(DIR) Post #AXLwIWSezN3NPuQEjI by kirt@mstdn.social
2023-07-04T13:52:08Z
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@john @irtapil Facebook could connect to mastodon?
(DIR) Post #AXLwJspbIrJb5Nnk9I by kirt@mstdn.social
2023-07-04T13:53:08Z
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@john @artcollisions @irtapil what do you mean by federating "threads"?
(DIR) Post #AXLwKqU3W5jS5wBNtg by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:54:24Z
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@llewelly Facebook is/was a special kind of insidiousness because people thought they were posting to small audiences. It gave the illusion of (limited) privacy. Like talking in a restaurant. Mastodon shouldn’t carry any such illusion. Your posts are public, anyone with a bot can data mine them.
(DIR) Post #AXLwamXPxFTQUTM1J2 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T13:55:43Z
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@kirt @artcollisions @irtapil Ha, it’s a little confusing, but Facebooks are launching a new app called “Threads” which is a Twitter clone. They are saying it will federate with Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #AXLx83C92tFvhuGf44 by idoubtit@mstdn.social
2023-07-04T13:58:56Z
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@john Since using Threads means you agree to allow them to collect and use your data, what does it mean to those of us who interact with Thread accounts? We didn’t agree to their terms of service but is that interaction information collected? I’m not understanding this.
(DIR) Post #AXLxEqvl2gtPhHqX6u by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T14:02:50Z
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@idoubtit yeah, I don’t quite understand that aspect. But the data they could access they could get from scraping anyway. They won’t get to the juicy stuff like what posts to pause the timeline for, button clicks — all of that attention tracking these apps do.
(DIR) Post #AXLxRtWCjS97UJ7368 by lelehier@sup.lelehier.de
2023-07-04T14:08:31.380Z
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@john@sauropods.win @freetoken@mastodon.social that partially true. While this public data is open for everyone to see (well that's the whole meaning of posting something publicly) data like device usage and alike won't fall in Metas hands (just look at the requested permissions of the Threads app on the App Store, it's crazy!).But if we disregard the whole privacy aspect, your reasoning is absolutely right. Probably nobody on Threads cares if they are a part of Fedi. Threads will have such a high number of users and therefore have their own independent ecosystem. If instances federate with Threads, there is at least the possibility to spread the word of other Fedi instances, which would strengthen the decentralized social media movement.
(DIR) Post #AXLxRuBgFFK5YwWAkK by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T14:13:27Z
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@lelehier @freetoken don’t get me wrong, I would much, much rather people join a real Fediverse instance than the data-monster that Threads will be. But I’ve tapped out my influence in that respect!
(DIR) Post #AXLylpQ9mBkuWdLwx6 by Vickysaurus@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T14:31:11Z
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@john Something I really like about the Fediverse is the concept of different social media being able to interact with one another regardless of what specific social media you yourself are on, instead of the current walled gardens. Now, that is slmost certainly way too rose-tinted glasses a way of looking at what Meta’s up to. But even so, I think pre-emptive defederation without seeing what happens is not the way to go.
(DIR) Post #AXM347kCmxkINpi5Me by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:19:40Z
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@nev The purpose of federated social media to my mind is not to have a nice place on the internet, but to break the stranglehold a couple of big tech companies have on our online expression and attention. One of the stated goals of Mastodon is to replace Twitter, so this is not a fringe view.If the Fediverse fails to scale it has been a failure by my measure.Yes I would federate with Facebook if it was just another server. The potential size of it is part that worries me.
(DIR) Post #AXM3TTqbkKvEAunOam by TheDinosaurDave@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:24:14Z
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@john honestly, looking at the terms for threads. They want all of everyone's data so they can feed it into AI and sell it to whoever they way. I know this is a public forum, so all that can be scrapedregardless, but seeing how they corrupt everything and try and force adverts everywhere they can. I have zero issue defederating them until they prove they are not going to try and take over, or worse cripple the fediverse to try and win so.e zero sum game in their mind. I just cant trust big tech
(DIR) Post #AXM3f3hCns1YXfv1cW by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:26:10Z
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@TheDinosaurDave I don't trust them at all, but how would they get ads in?
(DIR) Post #AXM4DofydeVM5uuyOW by DreadShips@mastodon.me.uk
2023-07-04T15:31:59Z
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@john @artcollisions To add anecdote, until the rate limit thing the naval history corner of Twitter was largely unaffected but didn't necessarily feel comfortable about it.Being able to shift home but painlessly remain part of that conversation would have seen at least some of those people having already moved and without them losing anything but Musk.
(DIR) Post #AXM4YrTLRAoAqe2oNs by mike@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:36:20Z
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@john @TheDinosaurDave That's the thing. They *fundamentally* can't, because they don't control the software. The only way Facebook can show me an advert on Mastodon is by persuading someone who I follow to post it. In which case I'll stop following them.
(DIR) Post #AXM4dRUvRAovjmy5HE by TheDinosaurDave@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:36:31Z
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@john thats their business model. And if their actions have shown anything before, they'll find a way to do it. I know they wont be able to necessarily push ads to be visible if u r not following a specific thing. But weve seen them so all sorts of dirty tricks before. And in the end, maybe its my cynical side. I just dnt trust them and dont think we should leave a door open to a group thats shown how theyll act in bad faith everywhere else.
(DIR) Post #AXM5JbDFhvsQ1wnse0 by biplane@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:41:08Z
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@john I know I'm not the most active on social media in general and especially not on Mastodon, but I really think that allowing federation has a lot more benefit than cutting off; people are more likely to be willing to jump ship to Mastodon if they can still access the artists and other content creators they love from the mainstream sites (which Threads will almost surely become) for example.It just raises the viability of Mastodon, to me.
(DIR) Post #AXM5fVL0EOyaBEsFGK by TheDinosaurDave@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:40:50Z
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@mike @john, im not saying im not being paranoid. But it's more of a "this is what they've done, and how they've corrupted and taken over other things before, acting in bad faith," and my cautious side wants there to be kept at arms length for a while.before we federate with them. Let them prove they're not going to try and corrupt the system first. At the end of the day, ive had nothing but positive experiences here. I cant say that about fb or insta.
(DIR) Post #AXM5fVzlmpaODfwno0 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:45:30Z
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@TheDinosaurDave @mike I don't think it's paranoid, I think they probably will try something. I just don't think it will be so sneaky and clever that we won't notice. They just aren't that good.
(DIR) Post #AXM6EmAfdZBkWVrNI0 by mike@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T15:55:12Z
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@john @TheDinosaurDave What, though? What IS there for them to "try"? Short of seeding fake accounts that are interesting enough to sucker people into following them, there really is no attack vector.
(DIR) Post #AXM6n6YgLOodbDSb9k by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T16:00:36Z
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@mike @TheDinosaurDave One vector would be inserting ads directly into people's posts, I guess. Kinda like a sledgehammer approach, but maybe!— sponsored content —This Toot brought to you by BigFriendlyCorp®, where your data is our business. Because we love you.™
(DIR) Post #AXM72hbGuESgpH6owi by TheDinosaurDave@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T16:04:11Z
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@john @mike yeah people on their thing dont see them but anyone in the fedi will see some pre or post amble about some sponsorship bs
(DIR) Post #AXM7N8TyfSSLzYRNyq by mike@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T16:08:05Z
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@john @TheDinosaurDave No problem — I'll just stop following that person. If they do it all their people. we can defederate. Simples.
(DIR) Post #AXMW6yIlFZ3GdYaEPQ by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-04T20:45:12Z
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@wolfteeth my bet is that the current Fediverse will be treated like the forgotten stepchild. Mostly indifference.
(DIR) Post #AXMXahUmOomV9gwdCC by chrigu@mastodon.dissem.ch
2023-07-04T21:01:19Z
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@john it's Facebook, post some boobs and the whole thing will resolve itself 🤷
(DIR) Post #AXO9EYgOTV0orvCpH6 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-05T15:38:10Z
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I’m not going to preemptively defederate from #Threads. I will reconsider if there are specific problems that may warrant it (moderation/advertising/privacy/EEE etc.).In the meantime, I’ll remind you that you can personally block servers, so even if you’re on a server that federates with Threads, you don’t have to see any of it.
(DIR) Post #AXOSxryZUKKArk1n28 by gratefulwolf@archaeo.social
2023-07-05T19:19:17Z
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@john thinking it's not about seeing insta's 'threads’, but about it scraping everything it wants from every instance which allows it - don't know how individual blocking would prevent that https://sfba.social/@drahardja/110653158490952467
(DIR) Post #AXOTJ7PNJ3IqoFhI9o by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-05T19:23:04Z
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@gratefulwolf they can scrape right now. They can’t get to app data in either case, so I’m not too worried about the privacy implications at the moment (people really shouldn’t be treating Mastodon as if it’s somehow private, it isn’t).