Post AXOLiF3fCbN88p0jAm by Biggles@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by Biggles@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AXMOCS559vpcoKHsqO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:16:51Z
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This pretty much describes the extreme left and right perfectly.
(DIR) Post #AXMOWJZoUIquE78J9M by Amikke@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:20:27Z
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@freemo don't forget the rare cases where they seem to agree and therefore are the best science and proof that all those beliefs are valid.
(DIR) Post #AXMOrhey8srX05k9HU by Free_Idealist@pleroma.nobodyhasthe.biz
2023-07-04T19:24:22.796060Z
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@freemo Whoa... You mean to tell me that this strawman represents everyone you don't like? That's crazy bro.
(DIR) Post #AXMPFHawhcL56z6ZzE by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:28:37Z
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@freemo Mysterious stuff, the definitions of extreme left and right... won't find two people on this planet agreeing there
(DIR) Post #AXMQACgzbP2uPg4jrM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:38:52Z
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@Free_Idealist Nah there are tons of moderate left, right, and centrists i dont like too.
(DIR) Post #AXMQHMUxXhEmqvrOkK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:40:11Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Its usually only the people existing at these extreme ends who struggle to see the line where the extreme begins. Moderates on the left, right, and center are much better at it.
(DIR) Post #AXMQVClGXc5chy5XHc by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:42:41Z
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@freemo I find left and right to be hard enough as they are, without the "extreme". It may have all started out with royalists sitting on the right, but from there a lot has happened.
(DIR) Post #AXMSYbuxfOIDVSNJYG by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T19:56:04Z
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@freemo Care to try defining it together or would that be too stressful for the evening?
(DIR) Post #AXMSYcUlWGvtIV7uMK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:05:41Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven i can define it with a simple drawi g, give me a minute.
(DIR) Post #AXMSxKRBnKMMX3EgTo by Biggles@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:10:11Z
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@freemo genuinely curious - which science is it that the radical left seems to have a problem with? Just looking for a representative example. Because the ones that come to mind are all right bugaboos - but maybe I have a blind spot.
(DIR) Post #AXMTMdweP4nYGz1Sqm by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:14:44Z
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@Biggles Thry seem to manipulate or reject science that disagrees with their stance on a lot of things.A good example was covid, i was am a research scientist who worked on covid throughout the pandemic. Me and many covid scie tists pointed out criticisms of the lefts ideology and opinions along the way, for example ones ability to be reinfected with covid or the liklihood that a covid vaccine coukdnt produce herd immunity. I was fairly violently attacked by the left on these issues despite being well within mainstream science and even accepted. Of course the right had its own issues with covid.I tend to find similarly dishonest antiscience when talking about guns, which the left seems to assert quite confidently without even understand the basic ideas they are debating. This is both from the science behind guns themselves and the analysis of the stastics and consequences of gun laws.
(DIR) Post #AXMTsbXgs6VC5WaW7E by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:20:31Z
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@freemo Sure. And i interpret this as "yeah, now is a good time". So i started out with the historical meaning. I would guess Aristocracy is not your fancy, so let's go on to the concept of "conservative", which means "change things slowly and pay attention to not make anything worse", which is something claimed to be on the right. This, i would say, is a good concept most of the time. I do not see it currently in any politics. Left, that would be against the royalists, pretty indistinct. Generally associated with peoples rights, contrary to first the royals, then the rich. I do not see that either in the current political landscape. Now, before diving in any deeper, do you actually see any effective measures to either side in politics? Family values, peoples rights, any of the topics claimed by either side? So, provided you don't say "but they do have values, everything's great", we would have to determine what we actually mean - political parties? What people on masto toot? It's not like it was all aligned in set groups.
(DIR) Post #AXMU2YydGTfD1kwFGq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:22:19Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven tha ks to horshoe theory we dont even need to define right or left to define if your in the extreme of either.
(DIR) Post #AXMVQ0uZfeOeHNmoUa by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:37:47Z
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@freemo Well, this sounds very american, more focussed on positions than actual contents... horseshit theory i would say, or is there anything relevant to this theory? Pertaining to contents, not positions?
(DIR) Post #AXMVRSmBYXA8zQYNua by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:38:04Z
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@freemo Looking forward to the graphic, btw
(DIR) Post #AXMVcNeSwuFWHX9HN2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:40:01Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven you are the one who came in exerting extremism was hard to define, not me. We can debate left vs right too, its just making thwt distinction is not relevant to my post.
(DIR) Post #AXMVlD1Pq8cnv75paK by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:41:37Z
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@freemo Sorry, i don't understand. Maybe i should back off and let you define what you mean.
(DIR) Post #AXMW1hkRMttXqi1Dea by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:44:34Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven for the record i find that the extreme left and right are almost nonexistant in most coubtries outside the usa, so there is less need to define it.
(DIR) Post #AXMW9BI7vQwnVGL9wO by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:45:57Z
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@freemo So you are not interested in defining left and right? Totally ok if it is so, just asking, will back off if requested. Would love to see that graphic in any case.
(DIR) Post #AXMWGFaMMHmeqeEuAa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:47:12Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I am fine with defining left and right as a fun exercise. I just want to point out it is a tangent not particularly relevant or neccesary to frame the original post.
(DIR) Post #AXMWNtQUd5XARJGibA by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:48:37Z
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@freemo I can see that, but if we would devolve to horseshoe theory level, i don't see any meaning to it - position fights are just senseless occupation therapy imo.
(DIR) Post #AXMWhLx8nCEWPnoovA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T20:52:06Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven the original post is about political extremismand how it is at odds with objective consensus... any form of ideological political extremism is inevitably going to take this form, tbats just common sense. It also forms the core of horse shoe theory since when you become that radicalized it your ideals really dont matter since they are so absurd you wont ever approach them in the first place and instead devolve into contrarianism as the core.
(DIR) Post #AXMeGMaZ7TPMCZttPU by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:16:54Z
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@freemo Just my point, if people go to that length... sorry, had to flake out for a moment there. I see now you had a thing about extremism and didn't actually talk about left an right - and i was infatuated with the idea of defining left and right, which would be a hard thing to do, and as such interesting. The point you made stands - if anyone is extremist and stops to listen to reason, that is very bad. Never wanted to contradict that! If you would be interested in trying to define those difficult words, the offer stands, but no bad feelings if you want to leave it at "your point was correct".
(DIR) Post #AXMfUIx1XcmevacJ3A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:30:34Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven So extremism side in terms of politics is easy to Identify... If someone has a set of ideologies where anything that is even slightly different, introducing nuance, is "the enemy" then you are dealing with someone on the extreme end.If you are on the left and see centrists as evil as the right, and even the moderate left as evil, then you are probably an extremist.Basically you just need to look at how well defined the walls of the silo is.So yea extremism is easy to identify... now right vs left I think that is harder because you can be right and left in different categories its not an all or nothing thing.For example communists, socialists.anarchists, progressives. are all generally agreed to as "left" though having quite a bit of ideological difference. Generally I'd say the common denominator of the left vs right is the left focuses on ensuring individuals power is mitigated (to some extent) and that the power and resources need to be spread out and not allow the natural processes of of concentration of power in a small group of individuals.Therefore common themes among the left are redistreibution of power and wealth and/or the prevention of centralized power (as is the case of anarchism, which even sees the government as bad).the right on the other hand seems to see a strong centralized power as ok, so long as it comes about through natural power-dynamics. Generally prefering free-markets and seeing accumlated power in a central place as both natural and good.
(DIR) Post #AXMgkxLlCrnwoJguZ6 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:44:50Z
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@freemo I see, and i think you added a lot here. We should not argue about left or right, we should discuss goals! I hold dear to get down to what is actually what humans want. Not ideals far removed, but practical concerns. So with the basic needs, i guess we agree that food and shelter should be available for everyone existing. You exist as an individual being, you should have food and shelter. So far, so uncontroversial? The question would be, how can that be achieved? Would a central power ensure it, or rather skim resources for themselves until supply is scarce? On a further note, i think having a task worthy of doing (not to be confused with a job, which is often enough not worthy) is integral to happiness. Would a central organization or market actually select for useful tasks or just keep people busy so the peace is kept? Or would a prevention of central power help here, discarding meaningless busywork? I will hold back and not just spout utopian wishes, i want to hear your thoughts before i say more.
(DIR) Post #AXMgqaeGWUyc8m27MW by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:45:50Z
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@freemo I see, and i think you added a lot here. We should not argue about left or right, we should discuss goals! I hold dear to get down to what is actually what humans want. Not ideals far removed, but practical concerns. So with the basic needs, i guess we agree that food and shelter should be available for everyone existing. You exist as an individual being, you should have food and shelter. So far, so uncontroversial? The question would be, how can that be achieved? Would a central power ensure it, or rather skim resources for themselves until supply is scarce? On a further note, i think having a task worthy of doing (not to be confused with a job, which is often enough not worthy) is integral to happiness. Would a central organization or market actually select for useful tasks or just keep people busy so the peace is kept? Or would a prevention of central power help here, discarding meaningless busywork? I will hold back and not just spout utopian wishes, i want to hear your thoughts before i say more. And did i skip any human needs you deem important?
(DIR) Post #AXMh9MxfdS7xC243DE by toiletpaper@shitposter.club
2023-07-04T22:49:16.195688Z
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the meanings of right vs left in a political context have changed over time. originally it referred to the two opposing wings of the revolutionary french legislative assembly. on the left were all the folks you cited, but also including laissez-faire/free-market capitalists such as bastiat. whereas on the right you had the monarchists, aristocracy and those interested in centralized power. repositioning laissez-faire onto the right (ie. authoritarian) side of the spectrum is not only historically incorrect, but against the ethos of laissez-faire entirely.
(DIR) Post #AXMhU1xytCWW9x3t2m by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:52:56Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven So with the basic needs, i guess we agree that food and shelter should be available for everyone existing. You exist as an individual being, you should have food and shelter. So far, so uncontroversial?While I would certainly agree with you on this point im not sure you can say its uncontroversial. I know many people, at least in the USA, who think some people should be left to fend for themselves, even if that means death.Its achieved by following my exact set of opinions as a left-leaning centrist of course :) If that werent the case then I wouldnt believe in it :) Would a central organization or market actually select for useful tasks or just keep people busy so the peace is kept?Im not sure what a central market is… you mean like a regulated market, the opposite of a free market?
(DIR) Post #AXMha0mSDAkEDdWQ5I by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:54:01Z
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@toiletpaper @admitsWrongIfProven I dont think that was much of a change at all. The spectrum remained the same, free-market proponents are certainly more left than dictators or monarchs.. it was true then as it is true now to say, from the perspective of a dictator free-market supporters are left of them.
(DIR) Post #AXMiEXW1vFmtKQAHsO by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:01:23Z
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@freemo Oh, i messed up on the word “centralized”, i mixed up the centralized power with the question of regulated vs. unregulated markets.Of course, unregulated markets are just the right of the strongest, aka no societal structure at all - if no one regulates, anyone strong enough can take what they want.
(DIR) Post #AXMiGLjigjHpNJQnlQ by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T22:58:26Z
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@toiletpaper @freemo Hmm, the toilet paper has a point, what is commonly referred to as non-extremist left was never in there... it was about the old rich vs. who wants to get rich. So we have neoliberal (left, they call themselves), monarchist as "centralized power" and, not featured, "decentralized power" or anarchist, never in a center of power. Of course, to the last, anarchists don't want to be in power. A view i can subscribe to, but would not sacrifice the discussion we (freemo and me) started to. @freemo, do you acknowledge that right is associated with centralized power? I thought i read that in your posts, but i want to be sure. Is left vs. right maybe the question of centralized power vs. decentralized power, with decentralized power far off because decentralizing it forbids taking power without giving up your conviction?
(DIR) Post #AXMiGMatV1oy2EJGe8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:01:40Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven modern liberal and conservative are not exactly the same thing to me.left vs right is one dimension on a multi-dimensional political spectrum (where other dimensions re things like personal freedom vs authoritarianism)... I would define a modern liberal as someone who is on the authoritative-left of the spectrum, a conservative is on the authoritative-right, a libertarian is generally on the personal freedom side of the spectrum, and they are split between left-libertarian and right-libertarians.@toiletpaper
(DIR) Post #AXMiPWXfskk1UjAiUC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:03:20Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenunregulated market is not hte same as free-market… an unregulated market has no government-manipulation but is free for civil-manipulation and gaming.. a free market is a market which operates freely according to market pressures and is not manipulated by indivviduals and minimally regulated by government (enough to ensure the market stays free, but no more).
(DIR) Post #AXMiV5m8JUIeDTadQ8 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:04:23Z
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@freemo @toiletpaper Of course they are not the same thing, they are two parties struggling for power - but do you see any fundamental differences? Would anything change for most people if the one side or the other won? How would the people against centralized power (without a clear party) factor in? Would anything change if they were ... not really in power but preventing power? What would be the result of that?
(DIR) Post #AXMifnpdMpdZkcKo40 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:06:16Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Of course they are not the same thing, they are two parties struggling for powerNo i wouldnt say they are parties either.. while it is true the republican party is ont he conservative side of the spectrum, and the democrat party is on the liberal side, they are not synonymous. You can be liberal and against every principle of the democratic party, just as you can be conservative and disagree with every principle of the republican party.@toiletpaper
(DIR) Post #AXMihm5ont4cw8qSEC by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:06:40Z
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@freemo You conveniently overlook that with no regulation, there is no guarantee for your deal. Maybe the other side takes it, maybe they just kill you and take what you have. A true unregulated market… is unregulated. No central power to ensure that what is yours stays yours - the same problem that anarchists have! No central power makes it hard to stop the bad guys.
(DIR) Post #AXMimp4v8BKndzpeme by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:07:32Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Which is why i said an unregulated market is not a free market.
(DIR) Post #AXMisdfYSkXnzrjzrk by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:08:38Z
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@freemo @toiletpaper Well i don’t understand any of that. The american partys are far removed from any ideals we were discussing. They might purport to be something, but sorry, i don’t trust either to hold up to any ideals.
(DIR) Post #AXMiwnsaRYGeozp2zw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:09:20Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @toiletpaperyes thats true too, the ideals they claim to have are far removed from their actual intent.
(DIR) Post #AXMj0ns8PdGNxPWBiy by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:10:05Z
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@freemo We are back at the beginning… no control means anyone could do anything. Will people at large do more harm than a central power?This is interesting, and i hope you enjoy it as much as i do!
(DIR) Post #AXMj7JcrGZ5qB1Th0C by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:11:17Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Which is why I have never supported “no control”. And yes I think with absolutely no control at all it would do more harm than the correct amount of control. Sadly what we have now are governments exerting excessive control which also isnt good.
(DIR) Post #AXMkAoOlPVnIRJ7HLE by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-04T23:23:06Z
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@freemo Well, looking into it, there are more modes of control than state power. We have social control. Don’t get me wrong, that is also often bad, sometimes people don’t like what they see and shut out others - harm is done. But we cannot just dismiss it just because social control has done bad things - in the same vein of thinking, we would have to dismiss central control because of what the nazis did!What would actually further our goals, how much power should we cede and, more importantly, to whom?I think there should be some more nuanced structure, people actually talking about their needs, organizing life in a group small enough to know each other, and, as long as we have nations and wars, bigger things on a more central level. Can’t repel the invading nation on a level of “100 people here are talking about it”, but those above need to be accountable in the long run. I would see a problem there, and the structures that are black and white (all centralization is what we have, all anarchy might be a problem too in theory) are not good enough.We are, once again, at the beginning. Extremes are not helpful.
(DIR) Post #AXMoIAukUkTc7BqNEG by toiletpaper@shitposter.club
2023-07-05T00:09:17.703124Z
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the underlying logic of laissez-faire as I understand it is "equal rights". essentially that no group has rights superior to an individual, thus making the state, or economic interference by the state (such as regulation, taxation), illicit. on the other hand, when transgressions occur, one can leverage the common law system for redress, rather than as now, having to sue the government who already gave regulatory permission to transgress. moreover where any ensuing damages would go to the victim in a common law scenario, in the current state off affairs, the government and lawyers would get the cheque, and the victim left holding the bag. insofar as left = market regulation, and right = no-regulation, which do you think results in greater personal freedom and accountability?
(DIR) Post #AXMtTlDwKwddgQAEEK by Nudhul@shitposter.club
2023-07-05T01:07:24.060374Z
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@Biggles @freemo human biology lol
(DIR) Post #AXMyeA739fYvXciiwa by Biggles@qoto.org
2023-07-05T02:05:17Z
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@freemo Rejecting science that disagrees with your current beliefs, whatever they are, seems to be a thing many people do - left, right, or center. Even actual scientists who should know better do it, sadly. Cognitive Dissonance is a harsh mistress. But thank you for the reply - I at least now can see where it comes from. I think with the Covid especially many people formed unsupported opinions early on and close their mind to new evidence, to their disadvantage, and it's an uphill battle to get people to understand that biology is a bit more wibbly-wobbly than many (including doctors) believe it is.
(DIR) Post #AXMzKA2Tor9rTWbqLY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T02:12:50Z
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@Biggles Well no arguments there... the difference is when it is part of group-think, done in unison, and clearly ideologically gated its a very different thing.... nearly all of the extreme-left rejected science en masse to the same tune, much as the extreme right did... the center when it happens it is on a very individual basis and not something that manifests such consistent patterns along party lines.The problem with covid wasnt simply about early on opinions, it was more about contrarianism.. Anything, and I mean anything, the right formed as an opinion the left had to reject, and violently fight against.. I mean hell I saw more than a few lefties get into fist fights over COVID nonsense with righties.
(DIR) Post #AXNzO9WxqTdIDOjPsG by culopollo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T13:48:18Z
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@freemo Does extreme center exist?
(DIR) Post #AXOK0l3AnN1gfQTzQe by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-07-05T17:39:22Z
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@freemo @Biggles I still wonder which of the early treatment interventions, like hydroxyurea or budesonide nebulizers, might have actually stopped this.There was a bunch of quackery on the right, yes, but the left also seemed willing to suppress things that worked in order to Get Trump.
(DIR) Post #AXOKDqxa8N1ulE6zRo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T17:41:45Z
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@mike805 Fair criticism. In all liklihood many of the alternative treatments would have had marginal impact at best... I mean never in the history of medicine have we ever been able to find a significant cure to a virus outside of vaccines, never.Any treatments that could have potentially help would have addressed the symptoms and likely not cured the virus.. That said your right that blind suppression was at play and some of the treatments may atleast have been helpful if not a complete cure.@Biggles
(DIR) Post #AXOKm3NmSBeZ8Ofqc4 by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-07-05T17:47:56Z
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@freemo @Biggles Outside of vaccines abd antibiotics, almost all medicine is fixing symptoms.People will generally recover from the virus if you can avoid lung involvement and other bad things. There is plenty of evidence that some of the alternative treatments the right was pushing did help with that.If not, the virus was just going to get whoever it was going to get. Nobody has ever produced a sterilizing or long-lasting vaccine against a coronavirus either.
(DIR) Post #AXOL04Fg1CW1suZ984 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T17:50:26Z
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@mike805 Thats not really true.. nutrient defiencies are cured with the proper nutrients, poisons are cured with their proper antidoes (methanol being cured with ethanol for example), surgeries usually directly fix the underlying issues (mending bones for example). In fact outside of mental illnesses and viruses most diseases can be cured directly rather than just mitigating symptoms.@Biggles
(DIR) Post #AXOLSzYoXWC1jUJFOC by ech@qoto.org
2023-07-05T17:55:41Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Regarding centralized power, I don't think of left–right this way. (I'm in US, FWIW) Here, at least, the "right" party, Republicans, are the party of deregulation and lower taxes – at least that's the brand: I know a lot of times they vote for higher taxes and control, but to the point here it's what they talk about and sell themselves as. I know, we want to think of Trump as "authoritarian" because of his statements about controlling media and so on, but even his administration is known for focusing on deregulation. (Whether they did so successfully is an interesting question, but not the point here.) The "left" party, Democrats, have instead branding about more about sensible government doing sensible things, yes? Regulating where needed and so on.Of course, we think of right-authoritarians like fascists etc. Worth noting though even those often keep businesses privatized at least (Pinochet, Hitler, etc)Additionally, as noted here, left-anarchists are anti-statist as well, so clearly correlation between what people talk about as left-right and being statist/anti-statist is not so great.
(DIR) Post #AXOLiF3fCbN88p0jAm by Biggles@qoto.org
2023-07-05T17:58:27Z
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@freemo @mike805 Thank you. I was just going to mention scurvy (and other vitamin deficiency diseases), and my own thyroid hormone replacement, which also doesn't fit. (My thyroid took a hike in my 20's - seems to run in the family)But - it gets off topic. Maybe my local peer group is special, but I never saw significant pushback on vaccinations there, and we definitely lean liberal. The only real pushback in my very limited peer group has been from one who believes all illness comes from diet, and another who things both the virus *and* the vax are a government plot. Both very far right (wives). I mostly disregard their advice :-) but again, my peers and experience may be atypical, as we're mostly computer dorks...
(DIR) Post #AXOLk0lNK06SNxIfwG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T17:58:44Z
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@ech >deregulation and lower taxesIm not sure thats really saying anything different. Deregulation is a way of basically saying "We wont try to manipulate who has power and who doesnt, we will let natural processes define that and if power accumulates in a central place, so be it"... Taxes are a bit more nuanced, generally a progressive tax structure where the rich are more taxed than the poor/middle class is about wealth redistribution. Therefore lower taxes, particularly when we talk about taxes closer to being flat, then that too is about "let power distribute where it naturally will".@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AXOLpf5Kpi26tDKYds by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T17:59:46Z
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@Biggles I too did not see any pushback on vaccines from liberals.. in fact quite the opposite, I saw them very strongly pushing for it and being quite aggressive towards anti-vaxxers.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AXOMNMllR8DfvkFRIm by Biggles@qoto.org
2023-07-05T18:05:53Z
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@freemo @mike805 Ah - that may explain my perceptions, at least there. I didn't notice any strong pushing because I was already convinced. We lost 3 family members to the virus before the vax came out, and we were fairly desperate for a *real* solution - and I had read quite a bit of good makes-sense-to-my-comp-Sci-background info on the new class of vaccines. (We've lost one more since - a sister-in-law in Texas who was positive the vax was poison. Sigh. And we've seen multiple infections since, but the rest of us are vaccinated, and have done very well. Small sample size I know)
(DIR) Post #AXOMoIBga1e3XSDCvA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T18:10:43Z
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@Biggles My opinion on the vaccine has been consistent... It deserved caution when it was authorized for emergency use and didnt clear the usual safety checks... now that it has full FDA approval its pretty stupid not to be vaccinated.That said when i was voicing my concerns over the vaccine and other COVID issues (Keep in mind i am a research scientist who worked on COVID) I got very abusive resistance to my ideas fromt he extreme left and right, even though most of my ideas were fairly standard mainstream opinions.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AXOOoijQ5c9XlvK4TQ by ech@qoto.org
2023-07-05T18:33:14Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Oh I assumed "centralized power" meant centralized into the hands of the state. I see your point.
(DIR) Post #AXOP3OWRVeTjRCFYaO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T18:35:51Z
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@ech Well no, it may mean that... the right isnt limited to republicans.. different groups ont he right manifest the principles in different ways. Right-libertarians generally dont want any power to be centralized in the state but are ok if natrual processes cause centralization of power among people (in other words they are ok with monopolies forming in an unregulated market), republicans are generally ok with some level of governance.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AXOPCdjiJUYpEHrkK8 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-05T18:34:37Z
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@ech @freemo I think that would be authoritarian. There sure are authoritarian elements, say beating down protests with excessive force, but the deregulation is another matter.
(DIR) Post #AXOPCfft6gglF05idc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T18:37:30Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Authoritarian is different... authoritarian means "the govt has power, and that is more important than the power of the individual.".. democrats are generally authoritative-left and republicans generally authoritative-right.. libertarians however are usually non-authoritative and come in both right and left forms.@ech
(DIR) Post #AXObpl568c0ckkHu08 by customdesigned@qoto.org
2023-07-05T20:59:05Z
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@freemo "scientific consensus" is an oxymoron.
(DIR) Post #AXOd6x2N2TGOi8m3Qe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-05T21:13:21Z
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@customdesigned Are you claiming the vast majority of scientists have never and will never agree on anything? That doesnt sound right at all.
(DIR) Post #AXR5beAK2fVVU5B5hA by customdesigned@qoto.org
2023-07-07T01:42:07Z
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@freemo That disagreement is how science advances into new knowledge. Historically, the majority has been wrong/incomplete by current theories.The issue I have is not with the majority opinion, but with censoring the scientists with a minority opinion.
(DIR) Post #AXRI5n0GwjRh22cIBU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-07-07T04:02:00Z
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@customdesigned Ok so its not an oxymoron at all, people should just be ok challenging the majority.I would agree, you should. But when your opinions contradict the majority on almost everything then you are likely the one in the wrong.