Post AXDrdZKPTG3fM26GO0 by jsonarray@utter.online
(DIR) More posts by jsonarray@utter.online
(DIR) Post #AXDTikKfaT68209pVw by stanford@social.as200950.com
2023-06-30T12:06:06Z
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These fights about centralized blocklists are really tiresome...
(DIR) Post #AXDTzjUJynUaKrluFc by kkarhan@mstdn.social
2023-06-30T12:09:07Z
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@stanford well, I think only an opensourced list that also has a public and transparent way to add & remove entries is the way forward...https://github.com/greyhat-academy/lists.d/blob/main/activitypub.domains.block.list.tsv
(DIR) Post #AXDZgdZULwL4CySz0i by stanford@social.as200950.com
2023-06-30T13:12:57Z
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@kkarhan That one is actually an excellent example of why even good ideas are bad.kiwifarms.pleroma.netThe pleroma.net domain is not even existing anymore.Not even to mention that they stopped doing their own fedi instance a while ago.Their whole platform isn't even variable o the clearnet anymore 😅Seeing kiwifarms in blocklists became more a political statement than an attempt to block user harm.instagram.comthreads.instagram.comthreads.netBlindly blocking a project we don't even know yet, where we don't even know which domain it will be using.Also, I am not really sure if this should be part of a blocklist.Feels again more lite a statement than it actually blocks stuff.Project 92-compromised instancesemacs.chWhat the hell is a "Project 92-compromised" instance? 😂Are we now blocking instances again that don't follow our own BL rules, huh?bsky.socialbsky.appWhy is BlueSky on there?They are not even using ActivityPub 😂To make it clear here, I don't support most of the projects. I helped bring kiwifarms down, and I signed the letter against P92. But I don't like the fact that these lists are used to make a statement.In general, I really have the opinion, if your instance is anything more than a "me + friends" one, you should be able to take responsibility by yourself to block/de-federate problematic instances, and you should know why they are blocked. Just outsourcing your responsibility to a 3rd party is not the way to go.It would be really great to have a way to just subscribe to a blocklist, and all the harm is gone. That's something any federated project wants to have. But I never have seen it work properly. It either gives too much power to the maintainers or, if it is some kind of list based on mechanisms, they get abused to gain an advantage.
(DIR) Post #AXDa3yppSgBwogExsG by kkarhan@mstdn.social
2023-06-30T13:17:04Z
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@stanford well, I do also block all their hosters...Cuz #DropKiwifarms is a matter of principle!
(DIR) Post #AXDd8vkAgLC0XVe7Dk by jsonarray@utter.online
2023-06-30T13:51:34Z
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@stanford I get both sides of it. Seems like people just don't want there to be such power held within the #fediverse. They see it as power rather than protection. It depends on how it's used. It’s necessary but easy to abuse.
(DIR) Post #AXDrdYeZymb7GIWrBY by hirad@mastodon.hirad.it
2023-06-30T15:51:27Z
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@jsonarray @stanford I don’t see why blocklist is necessary. Would you say how exactly its beneficial to block a list of instances without having any prior interaction with them or investigated them to see if they even deserve to be blocked?
(DIR) Post #AXDrdZKPTG3fM26GO0 by jsonarray@utter.online
2023-06-30T15:59:08Z
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@hirad @stanford some baddies are just know from the start. Crowd source moderation.
(DIR) Post #AXDrda4UhuvBexf4DY by stanford@social.as200950.com
2023-06-30T16:34:02Z
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@jsonarray @hirad Yes, we have the well-known problematic instances, and I think it's not a problem at all to de-federate them.But I am very sceptical about centralized blocklists. I haven't seen a fedi blocklist which is not flawed.They are either not really transparent or heavily biased and influenced by some silly fedi feuds.Looking outside the fediverse, it's a similar issue. For example, Spamhaus, the biggest blacklist for email servers and even routing in general (DROP list) misused its powers multiple times. It's still THE blocklist used by everyone and everything.The fediverse as such is all about taking the power from big/central organisations and splitting it into many small parts. It just feels really wrong to me when then people are pushing back towards centralized blocklists.Don't get me wrong, most proposals are usually with good intentions, but for me, it's just too much power in one location.I think a federated/decentral network also should have a federated/decentral moderation system.Taking the fediseer project as an example. I like the chain of trust idea. If we now could make it "a bit more decentral" it would be a really nice project in my opinion :blobcat:
(DIR) Post #AXDsOgxku48cdvyQka by hirad@mastodon.hirad.it
2023-06-30T16:22:54Z
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@jsonarray @stanford that's a very generic claim. What baddies? Crowdsourcing moderation means the dictatorship of the majority. Even blocking a single instance should be something that is frowned upon. And done as last resort when there is no other solutions. (Like when an entire instance is made for spam or phishing attacks)There is absolutely no reason to create an importable list.
(DIR) Post #AXDsOhdaOXbAjfXpx2 by stanford@social.as200950.com
2023-06-30T16:42:31Z
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@hirad @jsonarray Well, if an instance has stats about the most blocked accounts and is celebrating the leaders of that list, it's definitely a toxic instance for me.I think people need to accept different opinions, but harassment is something nobody should face or accept.So there are definitely "known baddies"
(DIR) Post #AXDswTUnTomoinXNyK by paul@oldfriends.live
2023-06-30T12:28:41Z
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@kkarhan @stanford Of interest to the subject, Mastodon Official is exploring adding 'Blocklists subscriptions' to its core server software platform. I am imaging that will come with some sort of central blocklist standard since it is 'subscribe,' meaning your blocks will change as the list you are subscribed to adds and removes domains, and not simply 'import' a blocklist.🔗 Mastodon Roadmaphttps://joinmastodon.org/roadmap
(DIR) Post #AXDswUJURLKtG1FrzE by stanford@social.as200950.com
2023-06-30T16:48:42Z
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@paul I don't want to know how many instances will blindly use this feature 😞
(DIR) Post #AXDt3JcwZNEi8qbsXI by paul@oldfriends.live
2023-06-30T16:49:58Z
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@stanford I feel the same way.
(DIR) Post #AXDvuaqRU7h4nWSM0e by hirad@mastodon.hirad.it
2023-06-30T17:21:59Z
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@stanford @jsonarray What you describe is just an asshole admin. Why should the entire instance get defederated for 1 person? That's my problem with defederation. In vast majority of the cases, the problem can be resolved by simply blocking individuals. But instead the entire instance is being defederated.
(DIR) Post #AXE2HIo7JUfTEza2wy by stanford@social.as200950.com
2023-06-30T18:33:12Z
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@hirad @jsonarray That's not entirely correct.Yes, if there are just one or two users on one instance causing issues, we will usually choose the way just to block these users.But honestly, in the fediverse, I depend on other admins to enforce basic rules. Everyone takes care of the users on their instance.I am not saying that every other instance needs to follow every rule of mine, but they need to have at least a basic level of moderation. Only remove spam and accept literally anything else because it's their imagined right of free speech is literally no moderation at all.And honestly, as I described earlier, many of those instances are actually encouraging harassing other people.Sorry, but there is no common ground for a discussion in those cases. That's not a thing about different opinions or political views, that is literally a bunch of people having fun to make other people feel bad by harassing and molesting them.