Post AXBijIJsKkZcR9aMls by owen@mastodon.transneptune.net
(DIR) More posts by owen@mastodon.transneptune.net
(DIR) Post #AXA0ysPlpDI5aQ0EtM by owen@mastodon.transneptune.net
2023-06-28T19:01:51Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
Something to keep in mind when hearing about hydrogen as a renewable or green fuel is that nearly half of hydrogen production, worldwide, comes from natural gas. Another 45% or so come from coal and oil sources. Renewable hydrogen - electrolysis, generally - is basically a blip.Hydrogen is, in many cases, an attempt _by the fossil fuels industry_ to carry on business as usual in the face of carbon-reduction initiatives by putting the carbonaceous parts out of sight.
(DIR) Post #AXA0yy1WyFSyyyhxwW by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2023-06-28T20:00:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@owen Hang on! There are some neat ideas for doing sane things with Hydrogen, but they don't make much sense until you have some infrastructure. Shipping energy from Australia/Africa as Ammonia for example (I mean what else do you use the middle of Australia for?)
(DIR) Post #AXA0z30eQwjYRhKplY by owen@mastodon.transneptune.net
2023-06-28T19:06:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Steam reforming and other techniques for squeezing hydrogen out of fossil fuels aren't worthless; one of the outputs of steam reformed methane is longer-chain hydrocarbons, for example, which are useful. (It also kicks out a lot of carbon mon- and dioxide.)However, hydrogen as a platform won't solve the problem of being dependent on fossil fuels within the foreseeable future.
(DIR) Post #AXA1INxEmjQauJxXPM by owen@mastodon.transneptune.net
2023-06-28T20:03:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@penguin42 I will be more convinced of those ideas if and when they are demonstrable, though I have no problem conceding that there is a chicken-and-egg issue involved.My issue is more that settling on hydrogen as a platform for replacing fossil fuels carries on down a path where fossil fuels are a significant source of energy for things with engines in them, at worse efficiency (since that energy must be repackaged) than we have today, in the _hopes_ of transitioning to other sources later.
(DIR) Post #AXA1sX3QQgwNYT5cgK by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2023-06-28T20:09:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@owen Yeh I agree, but there's a few Ammonia->H2 terminals being planned now for it - https://www.gasunie.nl/en/projects/ace-terminal and https://www.airproducts.co.uk/campaigns/immingham-green-energy-terminal
(DIR) Post #AXBHxKFRGMwxi3ybFw by danirabbit@mastodon.online
2023-06-28T19:41:16Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@owen Something else I don’t hear people mentioning enough is that hydrogen also slots in “nicely” with fossil fuels in regards to centralized production, requiring transportation infrastructure, refueling stations, etc. You can’t make hydrogen in your own house. It keeps energy centralized and scarce and profitable
(DIR) Post #AXBYchUFMgTQvIeaqO by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-06-29T13:51:53.006036Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@owen you mean hydrocarbons have hydrogeeen in them? :shocked:
(DIR) Post #AXBYv07oo5vjwPtCxk by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-06-29T13:55:10.430541Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@owen https://www.pnnl.gov/news-media/new-clean-energy-process-converts-methane-hydrogen-zero-carbon-dioxide-emissions this is interesting (methane is relatively easy to produce and doesn't require petroleum)
(DIR) Post #AXBcGTZYoi5hDMnUXI by publius@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-06-29T14:32:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@owen It's also an engineering absurdity. Liquefying hydrogen requires about 40% of the energy that can be recovered by burning it.A friend of mine, an enginner in the petroleum industry, says that there's a decided lack of suitable materials for gaskets and seals for hydrogen gas. In fact, there are few if any hydrogen pipelines more than a kilometer long (it rarely crosses a property line), and it diffuses right through the plastic piping now being used for fossil gas.
(DIR) Post #AXBijIJsKkZcR9aMls by owen@mastodon.transneptune.net
2023-06-29T15:23:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@publius Yep. And it's famous for diffusing into steel, as well, where it physically disturbs the structure of the metal and makes it much more brittle. Pressure makes this happen faster, as you'd imagine.Handling bulk loose protons is a right bitch.
(DIR) Post #AXCTo5yMMYC3R9JSc4 by publius@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-06-30T00:32:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@owen A friend of my Dad's worked at Ford in the 1970s on a Stirling-cycle engine project.It came to nothing because hydrogen is by far the best working fluid for a high-power Stirling, and in the end they just couldn't build an engine block which would stand up to hydrogen at 100 atmospheres and 700 °C, with the kind of reliability required for mass deployment.
(DIR) Post #AXCgPOUpeaMv3H3NNw by idlestate@toot.cat
2023-06-30T01:41:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@publius@owen solving the hydrogen embrittlement problem for pressure vessels was the trick needed to scale up the Haber-Bosch process. If I recall correctly, they went with an inner glass liner, supported against pressure by an outer iron (steel, probably?) jacket, perforated to allow any hydrogen that leaks through to escape.I used to wonder how they separate the required nitrogen from air, until I realized to my horror that they probably just burn out the oxygen.
(DIR) Post #AXCsL222QtMDfgGuBs by publius@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-06-30T05:07:29Z
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@idlestate @owen Even in those days I think they got the nitrogen separated from liquid-air plants, because there was a market for oxygen (and that's by far the cheapest way to get it).Of course they used to let raw liquid air stand for a few hours in an open bucket, which brings it up to about 50% oxygen, and then soak that into coal dust. This was the cheapest available explosive until ANFO ― maybe it's still cheaper, but ANFO is a great deal less shock sensitive!