Post AX6OUQEVey3jlLuIgS by mandlebro@qoto.org
 (DIR) More posts by mandlebro@qoto.org
 (DIR) Post #AX60dmeFICN2zKsMym by angelobottone@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:33:09Z
       
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       If gender is culturally constructed, why "man" and "woman", and only "man" and "woman", are present in every culture? Because, unlike other genders, which are only cultural constructs, "man" and "woman" are also natural features, scientifically verifiable, i.e. objective.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX60dnbnim0dy2jvo8 by freemo@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:37:29Z
       
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       @angelobottone Man and woman arent the only choices in other cultures... Most cultures have three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter. Keep in mind gender does not mean the same thing as sex of course.At least 13 languages around the world have more than 3 gendersSeveral languages have gender systems that dont relate to sex at all as well, for example animate vs inanimate or common vs neuter type languages.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX61LqErIvN0rk0fho by angelobottone@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:45:30Z
       
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       @freemo I wasn't talking about grammatical genders but about gender identity in human beings. I didn't say that "man" and "woman" are the only choices. I said that only "man" and "woman" are universal, while all other possibilities are culturally determined as they exist in some cultures but not in others.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX61qXkC7IAIU0J4Fc by freemo@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:51:00Z
       
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       @angelobottone gender identity and gramatical gender arent seperate things. Gramatical gender is the use of terms like "he, she, they" which are ways of describing someones gender identity. If a person dresses and presents as masculine then by definition then masculine grammar is what we use.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX61uZZBHbtvIF4nnE by freemo@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:51:46Z
       
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       @angelobottone they also arent universal. Many languages have no concept of gender at all.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX62M0P3c3VWLQQEfg by angelobottone@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:56:44Z
       
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       @freemo In Italian, the polite way to address a man is using  feminine pronouns. In any case, as I said, I wasn't talking about language, but about gender identity.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX62Xr0gMVjYgffeDo by freemo@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T21:58:50Z
       
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       @angelobottone and i am saying how you identify someone is a fubdementally linguistic question. Remove language from the discussion then what are you even discussing? Soubds like your trying to force gender (a linguistic thing) i to meaning sex, which is not gender (though does have meaning beyond language).
       
 (DIR) Post #AX64Ivt49967NV7Yn2 by Pat@qoto.org
       2023-06-26T22:18:34Z
       
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       @freemo @angelobottone And what about AI bots. Gender is often assigned to them, but they don't have genitalia.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX6M1NcW5y45Lx9zCS by mandlebro@qoto.org
       2023-06-27T01:37:05Z
       
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       @freemo @angelobottone This is incorrect.  Grammatical gender, gender as a social construct, and see are distinct but inextricable concepts in the sense that one cannot be understood without understanding its relationship to the other, however at the same time neither is equivalent to the others or can be understood entirely through the others.   Additionally, identifying someone is not a purely linguistic thing unless all thought is purely linguistic although addressing someone may be.  Grammatical gender describes how someone is addressed while gender as a social construct describes how they are identified.  To be even more clear, how someone is addressed is what words you use to refer to them while how they are identified is the collection of concepts and perceptions that allow you to understand them in relation to other objects.
       
 (DIR) Post #AX6M7SDju7FhMHT1Q8 by freemo@qoto.org
       2023-06-27T01:38:10Z
       
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       @mandlebro Thats fair.@angelobottone
       
 (DIR) Post #AX6OUQEVey3jlLuIgS by mandlebro@qoto.org
       2023-06-27T01:38:08Z
       
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       @freemo @angelobottone you have to be very careful while discussing these things as the terms are defined and used maliciously to confuse the matter.