Post AWwhJV2wtRm0zijPSS by JimmyB@mas.to
(DIR) More posts by JimmyB@mas.to
(DIR) Post #AWvt6kakn1wHjbGpma by miah@hachyderm.io
2023-06-19T18:07:15Z
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If you're upset that people are pushing back against Facebook in the Fedi, you probably forgot about the Instant Messaging wars of the 1990's. Embrace, extend, and extinguish is a real thing that corporations do. If you don't believe me, why aren't you using AIM, YIM, XMPP anymore? We can learn from history or ignore it. As a society of people, we seem most eager to ignore it in many respects.
(DIR) Post #AWwhJRXzu4EU8rE9IW by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-06-19T18:11:27Z
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@miah I'm not upset against people pushing back against Facebook/Meta, but I am upset at the attacks, conspiracy theories, and down right abusive behaviour some people are directing at people who are trying to build the fediverse up and doing the best they can.You can push back at Meta without attacking Fediverse admins or developers who happened to be invited to hear what they're working on.
(DIR) Post #AWwhJSAHbirE3b8iyO by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T06:34:01Z
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@thisismissem @miah sorry but I disagree. Going into an NDA meeting with the monsters who fucked the world needs spelling out every single time. These people are either incredibly stupid (they aren’t) or something very bad is happening. It is reasonable - in fact demanded - that we say so now.Coming on the back of the changes which point new joiners to mastodon.social and the instant defed’ing of admins pointing this out and you have a side to choose. Now. #Meta
(DIR) Post #AWwhJSzgWbySd1Bm5o by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-06-21T11:31:41Z
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@JimmyB @miah the thing is though that people are attacking folks just for saying that they were invited, not that they accepted, not that they signed an NDA, just for being invited.Even with changes you may disagree with, harassment and abuse are never okay. Otherwise we're as bad as the platforms we claim to be better than.
(DIR) Post #AWwhJTd2AJRwb3bCQS by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T12:19:51Z
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@thisismissem @miah and we were being told this week to ‘wait and see’ by someone who apparently attended the NDA meeting. Same person who defed’d Mastodon.Art apparently. I mean - if there is NDA discussion with #Meta I’m delighted. If there was no auto-pointing new joiners to Mastodon.social I’m delighted. If there was no defederarion without notice of mastodon.art I’m delighted.Just saying that if those things are true then let’s call it out
(DIR) Post #AWwhJUBQ6SxIJhgf1U by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T21:18:19Z
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Tagging you as you were part of this thread and - mea culpa - I forgot earlier: @evel
(DIR) Post #AWwhJUJvaplEk5fSHg by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-06-21T12:24:24Z
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@JimmyB you seem to only be seeing things after they've happened / not why they've happened. fwiw, I'm involved in multiple groups were server admins are present due to my work on trust & safety, and what we saw the other night was not okay.Meta aside, the way people were acting the other night was not okay, and shouldn't be accepted. Things got way too hot.
(DIR) Post #AWwhJV2wtRm0zijPSS by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T12:29:40Z
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@thisismissem I am a big supporter - including financially - of our admins. They do a great job unpaid and it is sometimes shit. I understand and am behind them.And I am sure I didn’t see everything that happened on this.I have every sympathy with a bit of heat tho. There has been dishonesty from the admin concerned. And there is exceptionally legitimate concern about NDA contact with #Meta.We all invest time, some money, to making this work. Extreme sensitivity is legit.
(DIR) Post #AWwhJVlyC3mnFLnMdE by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-21T14:22:30Z
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@JimmyB there's a difference between giving people some heat (which is okay) and telling people to kill themselves (which is not). @thisismissem
(DIR) Post #AWwhJWLm2wQT2OXxRI by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T14:27:47Z
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@thisismissem @jdp23 hi Jon - do you think I’d disagree with that?
(DIR) Post #AWwhJWvDv8mYoL8Gh6 by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-21T14:29:57Z
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@JimmyB no, but I wasn't sure that you knew just how hot it got. @thisismissem
(DIR) Post #AWwhJXZHWCpCoZsG8G by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T16:46:05Z
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@thisismissem @jdp23 I’m sure I didn’t (and I hate that stupid internet aggression) but I was 100% right about the apologetics for NDA chats with #Meta I think? Did you follow the conversation there? It was very revealing… and then the other party was suddenly too busy and important to engage and I was just some pleb who could be dismissed.Ok then… I’ll just keep funding the admins and shut my mouth then. Uh huh…
(DIR) Post #AWwhJY8jOPBIaWSZO4 by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-21T17:09:06Z
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@JimmyB I very much agree that signing an NDA in this situation was not a good move and deserves criticism. I didn't follow all the conversation but certainly saw examples where admins suddenly got too busy to respond to valid questions.On the other hand, things got hot enough that even people like Dan from Pixelfed -- who *didn't* sign the NDA or go to the meeting -- were getting a lot of abuse. So that's what I was reacting to. Apologies if it seemed otherwise!
(DIR) Post #AWwhJYpcovUajYWpFI by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-21T17:12:13Z
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@JimmyB I don't think that signing the NDAs was necessarily bad intent, it could easily have been people who weren't thinking about the implications and don't have good advisors who could say "whoa! red flag here!". That said there's a general problem that admins haven't been seeking input from members about what they should do -- this poll by @smallpatatas is very revealing! https://mstdn.patatas.ca/@smallpatatas/110533043724390295
(DIR) Post #AWwhJZa42Gdh3aFud6 by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-06-21T19:02:15Z
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@mastodonmigration @jdp23 @JimmyB @smallpatatas Also:Under 3 those precise things need to be reasonable for the purpose of the engagement.And add: 6. You must be able to honestly answer whether you're under NDA, and whether a particular topic is in the scope of NDA that you're refraining from talking about because you're bound, vs ignorant about or voluntarily not commenting.
(DIR) Post #AWwhJaE7dKgL3ozu4G by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-22T04:31:37Z
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@jdp23 It’s an interesting question: I remain unconvinced in my jurisdiction that NDAs used like this are in fact, contractual. They lack the key element of consideration - payment - and therefore aren’t enforceable. End of employment NDAs can be different as they do include considerationBut in this case? Not so much@dalias @smallpatatas @mastodonmigration
(DIR) Post #AWwhJastBlI96G4Sbw by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-22T04:38:45Z
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@mastodonmigration @dalias @jdp23 @smallpatatas yup - very good point.Who would want to go up against #Meta lawyers however good the case?
(DIR) Post #AWwhJbVsqmU33CJbOK by kjr@qoto.org
2023-06-22T09:48:27Z
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@JimmyB @mastodonmigration @dalias @jdp23 @smallpatatas Then it is impossible to trust them anymore. It is at least known who was in this infamous meeting?
(DIR) Post #AWwtplvcrSKE4MSeWW by ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social
2023-06-21T18:01:28Z
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@mastodonmigration @jdp23 @JimmyB @smallpatatas The reasons why the NDAs are fatal is not just because they happened, it's because they destroy trust permanently. They may have just been about having a look at it and keeping quiet, or they may have been about a business deal. Maybe Meta is paying them. Maybe advertising or data collection is involved. We don't know, and we'll never know because there's no way to be sure what the NDA prevents them from communicating. Trust is gone and can't be recovered, exactly because of the NDA
(DIR) Post #AWwtpmh80qK4RggaZ6 by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-21T18:21:17Z
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Trust isn't all-or-nothing. They screwed up, and in at least some cases there was already a lack of trust. But it's recoverable. It wouldn't violate NDA to say "I really screwed up, I won't have any more NDA meetings, and I won't do any deals with them before consulting with instance members first."@ophiocephalic @mastodonmigration @JimmyB @smallpatatas
(DIR) Post #AWwtpnTL7at4rDF5iC by JimmyB@mas.to
2023-06-21T18:35:24Z
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@ophiocephalic @jdp23 @mastodonmigration @smallpatatas yeah - I agree this shouldn’t irrecoverable…
(DIR) Post #AWwtpo7OievirRz59M by kjr@qoto.org
2023-06-22T12:08:50Z
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@JimmyB @ophiocephalic @jdp23 @mastodonmigration @smallpatatas I don't see that they are doing something to get trust back. Eben something simple like a public apology could help as a start.