Post AWqHmlEI360D2ncdV2 by eitch@mstdn.gsi.li
(DIR) More posts by eitch@mstdn.gsi.li
(DIR) Post #AWqHmimDAWLzR8TBSK by PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social
2023-06-19T05:08:35Z
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It's something I'll decide with the other mods and admins, but I'll ask the general populous anyway:Should we sign the #FediPact? https://fedipact.onlineOr in other words, should we block all instances that gather data and send it to #Meta (Facebook, Instagram) or should we embrace them?Please also answer whether you are on one of the #FediverseFoundation instances:climatejustice.socialclimatejustice.rocksclimatejustice.globalclimatejustice.photosclimatescience.esmtg.gardenmental.campindiepop.bandfedi.atkaernten.spaceburgenland.spacewien.rocks#poll #facebook #instagram #SurveillanceCapitalism
(DIR) Post #AWqHmjWeNrV5lACGq8 by eitch@mstdn.gsi.li
2023-06-19T05:39:29Z
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@PaulaToThePeople I really don't understand why there is a #fedipact to #defederate #meta et. al. The #fediverse has open APIs, they could scrape the content anytime they want, without anyone even noticing... The #fediverse is about all kinds of people communicating, they should be allowed to communicated too!
(DIR) Post #AWqHmkVyhqYapMtFQm by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-19T05:40:39Z
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@eitch @PaulaToThePeople You made in one post what it took me 6.https://indieweb.social/@tchambers/110568723404841278
(DIR) Post #AWqHmlEI360D2ncdV2 by eitch@mstdn.gsi.li
2023-06-19T05:42:40Z
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@tchambers @PaulaToThePeople well, you elaborate more, which is good too! =)
(DIR) Post #AWqHmmNtkrHYct7p7A by muppeth@fe.disroot.org
2023-06-19T07:34:12.053295Z
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@eitch @tchambers @PaulaToThePeople It isn’t about scraping content. It is about preventing situation that happen to XMPP where all those happy and friendly corporations used it to enable people to inter-communicate with eachother, just to get as much people as possible away from small providers and onto their platforms. Soon after they closed federation, divided once united network and brought the entire protocol to a halt. Today although xmpp is going strong, most of the people think it’s dead and nobody uses it. On global scale this is somewhat true because although most of the big corporations do use xmpp internally (modified to fit their needs), they dont interoperate. So keeping that in mind, #meta is possibly yet another case where people will be hiper optimistic that now ActivityPub is winning and we will all be connected again, just to witness time and time #meta pushing their vision upon others (uncomparamble to case we have now with mastodon pushing it), to the point where it starts controlling the network, and once it’s in control it will push independent servers out of it. There is a reason we use alternative solutions. In few years we are going to be on yet another revolutionary protocol, building alternative network yet again wondering what went wrong! I say, lets not make that mistake again.
(DIR) Post #AWqb19cC4xqZrFNbXM by ruoff@norden.social
2023-06-19T08:37:25Z
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@tchambers @muppeth @PaulaToThePeople @eitch as long as these independent servers use the standardised, open protocol to implement federation, the fediverse is working. I don't see the problem and no, we don't need another "revolutionary protokoll".
(DIR) Post #AWqb1B1kpPt4EoLX16 by muppeth@fe.disroot.org
2023-06-19T11:09:45.287460Z
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@ruoff @tchambers @PaulaToThePeople @eitch Uless big players like meta will start altering the standard to their liking. To the point of breaking changes, where you have to decide whether to follow and stay connected or not and be left behind. The preasure will be big because those big players bring lots of accounts so majority of servers would probably follow. As changes continue, less and less servers will be left, until only big players devide their cake leaving old-school fedi behind either still running old version of protocol "noone" uses, or start new shiny one. Checking what happen to xmpp is imo very good lesson we as community at large should not repeat. And this all happen when google was "doing evil" yet (officially). Here we are talking about the cancer of internet. So I would think twice about their intentions.
(DIR) Post #AWqcSvxEYvtfYK205Q by ruoff@norden.social
2023-06-19T11:20:54Z
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@muppeth @PaulaToThePeople @tchambers @eitch no Problem in forking the standard. The fediverse is not forced to adopt the "meta" standard.
(DIR) Post #AWqcSwdm0lvNgFvyOO by muppeth@fe.disroot.org
2023-06-19T11:25:59.080521Z
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@ruoff @PaulaToThePeople @tchambers @eitch Of course. This isnt my point. But your standard is nothing if noone's using it. XMPP was adopted globally by pretty much everyone. Heck even Whatsapp was just xmpp implementation. What happen then? Once the big players had enough users they build walled gardens for people. Sure you could still use (and in fact the protocol is live and kicking) the open standard but userbase of that standard has been hijacked. So this is my point. If meta and alike come in and start pushing their agenda, those that will leave or fork will be little minority pretty much starting all over.
(DIR) Post #AWqcicWyXw23weEGkC by muppeth@fe.disroot.org
2023-06-19T11:28:49.840282Z
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@ruoff @eitch @PaulaToThePeople @tchambers Heck, facebook messenger was once federated xmpp server. So even with meta: "been there, done that."
(DIR) Post #AWqmkmvrqNwIKEXoxM by ruoff@norden.social
2023-06-19T12:16:55Z
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@muppeth first of all #XMPP isn't dead and my jabber account still works. The problem was that XMPP-Clients came to late to smartphones. I used irc, than icq, tried #jabber (on the PC) and went to #Twitter. I even tried gnu.social but without an app, it was useles for me. #Mastodon was a gamechanger. The problem is not the walled garden but the usability. Imo XMPP was back in the days useless on smartphones. // @PaulaToThePeople @tchambers @eitch
(DIR) Post #AWqmknjqqXvCpFvjrk by muppeth@fe.disroot.org
2023-06-19T13:21:16.585210Z
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@ruoff @PaulaToThePeople @tchambers @eitch xmpp is and has pretty much always been my goto IM. If you say clients were late, I disagree with you and it actually shows what we could expect happening here on AP when big players move in. Clients werent bad for mobile. At least not the ones of the big players. Those worked pretty well. The problem was that although they made use of the protocol, they did not really care much about contributing back. And so just like in the hipothetical examples above, idependent development was underfunded and left behind while big players continued and closed their gardens. they exploited the protocol until they did not need interoperability. Here in few years we might get to argument that: "Mastodon died because Barcelona had A or B feature which rendered all other implementation useless".
(DIR) Post #AWwNwgAVThKzhOfgLg by len@toot.si
2023-06-19T12:19:52Z
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@PaulaToThePeople Let's not forget what #slack did to the #irc (there so many other cases). They were using open protocol and allowed bridging until enough people got on slack. Then they've just cut the bridge and the rest of the users were forced to jump over.A school case of #embrace #extend #extinguish tactics often adopted by big corpo when handling #libre projects. I don't think anything good comes out of federating with #meta unless #fediverse somehow outwits them.But why even bother? #eee
(DIR) Post #AWwNwhK7BScLHUArxo by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-22T06:11:33Z
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@len @PaulaToThePeople Also, remember MySpace being interconnected to FaceBook? No? Exactly.
(DIR) Post #AX0zbEN2CzpYIJZQyu by publicvoit@graz.social
2023-06-19T07:26:15Z
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@PaulaToThePeople That's similar to the discussion about FOSS licenses and commercial use.If FOSS wouldn't have come up with permissive licenses, the web+cloud probably wouldn't be based on free software.Furthermore, let's first see what #Meta is actually doing with their new service. If it should be necessary, you can defederate/block them easily anytime.
(DIR) Post #AX0zbFCn6ZEMspmlea by digitalRightsNinja@fedi.at
2023-06-24T08:00:24Z
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@publicvoit I would welcome that hypothetical world where today’s web (a train wreck of garbage) has no FOSS support, thus steering the FOSS community toward support of a non-commercial alternative network with a rich set of tools like #Gemini, which does not treat people like products.A place where we are not pawns is plan A.@PaulaToThePeople
(DIR) Post #AX0zbGB3UVR7tjytaS by didek@101010.pl
2023-06-24T11:32:17Z
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@digitalRightsNinja @publicvoit @PaulaToThePeople The question was, do we want companies to base their products on FOSS or do we want to be able to do our things with FOSS.I recently was struggling to even register a domain name without using anything propietary. The loose approach for licencing and executing code on user's machine is making it impossible to use web with FOSS.
(DIR) Post #AXKIzfSbDRcASES63k by muppeth@fe.disroot.org
2023-07-03T19:09:08.726607Z
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@tchambers @eitch @PaulaToThePeople I agree with your arguments. Simply de-federating will not stop meta or any other entity from using ActivityPub. But I don't think this is relevant. Twitter could be now using activitypub protocol because it happen to be the best protocol in the world and we would not even know about it (unless things would give in to make us see it when inspecting api etc). This is about the network and also the ownership of the protocol. If "network" decides not to federate with meta (I don't like to use the term de-federate cause you would need to federate first), if developers of server implementation would not want to cooperate with meta, even if meta would use activitypub, from our perspective it would be meaningless. From the network perspective we would not see any posts originating from meta just like we don't see it now. From protocol's and server implementation's perspective, meta would not be welcome to collaborate, meaning that their server implementation would not have impact on the direction of others and it would be actual meta that would have to follow others if they would want to stay compatible with us. Not making the stand, giving benefit of the doubt to #meta or welcoming them with open hands to the party, will in long run turn against us. No matter what we might think about meta's intentions, or the fact they would bring ton of people to get connected with each other. Giving meta space will mean that it's them that will have the upper hand no matter what we do from day one. Simply because they have endless resources in comparison to the rest of the network, both financial, labour and hardware. The fact that their instance will be bigger then the entire fediverse combined, means we have no leverage here. Such collaboration is totally unfair from our perspective because we will be out competed by them on all levels. Always! it will be meta driven protocols with small pool of satellites around it. So not federating from the start in my opinion gives good signal to meta. We are not interested in meta's participation as for most of the people within fedi, meta and others alike were the reason to create/move to alternative network. We will not be submissive and use all tools (including the ones you pointed in your post), to fight any attempt to hijack the protocol.I would love the entire world to be federated and interconnected. i would love those billions of people on activitypub, but this needs to happen organically and the participants of such network need to realize and understand the power in decentralized and federated networks where you exactly don't have twitters and meta's dictating their conditions to others.