Post AWi4aA8nGTRds82BOK by jakob@pxi.social
(DIR) More posts by jakob@pxi.social
(DIR) Post #AWi2YnEijmbada1ey0 by tante@tldr.nettime.org
2023-06-15T08:05:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
This article summarizes a lot of my thinking about current Mastodon/Fediverse: Why did the #TwitterMigration fail? – Café Lob-Onhttps://blog.bloonface.com/2023/06/12/why-did-the-twittermigration-fail/"It is niche and it will stay niche, and as above I don’t think the conditions that existed in November 2022 for a potential surge in adoption will exist again. Mastodon had its chance and it blew it"A core point in my opinion is actually the technical argument: People (often not very tech-savvy) argue that Mastodon might have issues but ActivityPub is the future without understanding that ActivityPub as a protocol has massive scaling issues built-in that grow worse the more the network federates making running a decentralized system prohibitively expensive. (via @jacob )
(DIR) Post #AWi3Xdiwie2UndB3lQ by guenterhack@chaos.social
2023-06-15T08:16:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante "Decentralisation is not a selling point for 99% of people" Kann sein, aber die Machtfrage stellt sich trotzdem immer wieder.
(DIR) Post #AWi3xkjdH5ZO4awy6i by tante@tldr.nettime.org
2023-06-15T08:21:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@guenterhack absolut aber "die Machtfrage" prägt nur für sehr wenige ihre Entscheidungen (auch wenn sie dann die Konsequenzen ausbaden müssen)
(DIR) Post #AWi4FyUSs4rZwmXoLg by guenterhack@chaos.social
2023-06-15T08:24:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante Die technischen Einwände stimmen halt leider. Aber was ist die Schlussfolgerung? Aufgeben?
(DIR) Post #AWi4aA8nGTRds82BOK by jakob@pxi.social
2023-06-15T08:28:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @guenterhack Machtfrage lässt sich wunderbar diskontieren. Das ist doch eine der menschlichsten Eigenschaften, künftige mögliche Konsequenzen auszublenden, wenn naheliegende aktuelle Gewinne realisiert werden können. Mal vulgär rationale Entscheidungstheorien runterbrechend.
(DIR) Post #AWi5CBvB5rdUOjnbXc by rigo@mamot.fr
2023-06-15T08:35:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @jacob This is soo much preaching the centralization of the web for the known business reasons of the surveillance economy. It is this absolutely limited self-centric perspective that has lead us here. And people writing such rants don't make it any better. The arguments! How many web servers from 1994 are still online with all content? Ok, there is www.w3.orgIf you don't care, go back getting harvested and complain if AWS is down. My transition worked and I will not go back.
(DIR) Post #AWi5EnjPUGTqF9XUgq by isobelardent@mastodon.world
2023-06-15T08:35:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante Terrific explanation. Unlike some of the issues with the Mastodon migration you mention, you always make technical discussions clear and accessible.
(DIR) Post #AWi5Huxx2tmzY8pKeO by tante@tldr.nettime.org
2023-06-15T08:36:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@guenterhack nein. Vieles ist vor allem ein ändern der Kommunikationshaltung: Fediverse ist eine Twitter alternative (so man sowas will), wenn es die Bedürfnisse von Nicht-Nerds auch abdeckt. Decentralization ist ein niedliches Tech-Feature aber who gives a shit? Discoverability ist wichtig, einfacher Einstieg. Ein bisschen mehr Gnade bei der Community und Respekt für Leute mit anderem Erfahrungshorizont und Bedürfnissen. Marginalisierten Gruppen zuhören, wenn sie beschreiben, warum das Zeug hier für sie nicht funktioniert und das nicht einfach wegwischen. Es geht viel um Zuhören und das Commitment dazu, wirklich für "alle" Menschen sein zu wollen, nicht nur Nerds. Die Tech-Fails kriegt man dann in den Griff
(DIR) Post #AWi5W3CREJsh8kLGqm by tante@tldr.nettime.org
2023-06-15T08:38:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rigo @jacob the article is talking about what people expect, about their needs and why they decide against solutions that especially the communities here think are superb. Centralization gets a lot of these features for free but claiming that the article "preaches centralization" is really missing the point by a few miles.
(DIR) Post #AWi5fFcMQfIiGCr1OK by esther@strangeobject.space
2023-06-15T08:40:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante while some points of this are accurate, it sadly focuses on only one particular corner of the fediverse (the one that actually wanted to become the next Twitter, mostly white, cis tech enthusiasts centered around Eugen Rochko) and ignores a lot of other (usually marginalized) communities that have very different goals and needs. A criticism of the current state of the fediverse from those other perspectives centers on very different aspects, like moderation resources.The claim of the article that the fediverse doesn’t have a unique selling point is fundally wrong. That selling point is moderation, even as limited as it still is. And ignoring that requires a very privileged perspective.
(DIR) Post #AWi5tLxrd1ohzzdXFY by floledermann@mapstodon.space
2023-06-15T08:43:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante Thank you! Unfortunately, it seems to me that such arguments are ignored or handwaved away by many in the Mastodon community, even tech-savvy folks. Such people seem to be oblivious to the incredible work that went into scaling, reliability and UX in orgs like Twitter – and the challenges in a distributed and decentrally managed system are even greater!Mastodon is for me a positive surprise socially (works for my academic community) but a disappointment technologically.
(DIR) Post #AWi68OqLCxAhGqICYa by rigo@mamot.fr
2023-06-15T08:45:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @jacob "the user needs" are the fuel of the surveillance economy. This is precisely how you're nudged into those services. Most of the alleged "user needs" are just musings about the silicon valley giants: "Meta does this, Google does that and if you don´t , you're out. I've seen this point too many times in 24 years of W3C. And it creates the societal mess we are in.You simply don't understand MY point. But maybe this medium's bandwidth isn't big enough for that discussion
(DIR) Post #AWi6DYyCz3bS7uR0FM by jakob@pxi.social
2023-06-15T08:46:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @guenterhack Discoverability ist insbesondere bei Mastodon ein für mich kritisches Defizit.Gleichzeitig würde ich nicht gar so apodiktisch eine Chance als vergeben und "die Gemeinschaft" als untätig verurteilen, aus der es durchaus Bestrebungen und Arbeit zur Erweiterung der aktuellen Affordances gibt, nicht zuletzt weil manche der Zugezogenen die Defizite nicht einfach hinnehmen sondern ändern. Und sei es auf Client-Ebene.Zukunft ist immer.
(DIR) Post #AWi6Np267Mc8q995bk by dp@bonn.social
2023-06-15T08:48:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante What I'm missing in @jacob s argument is the point that centralised networks don't scale very well either. They tend to burn through a lot of venture capital before they can make that money back by selling ads and virtual medals. The problem that I see here is that in many if not most cases, this leads to a point where the platform ends up in a state where nobody would use it if it were not for the lock-in effects created during the burn phase.
(DIR) Post #AWi7dHGJXnFagojFS4 by bitzero@fosstodon.org
2023-06-15T09:02:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante The post has its merits. My impression, tho, is that its assumptions are... debatable.The idea that a platform must "win" gaining more and more users, whoever they are, is for me... well, outdated. Internet it's not a zero-sum game.Distributed protocols are inherently un-scalable, as blockchain proved, and massive federated networks are, I think, unfeasible now. Mastodon can't "win" against centralization's ease of use.The real question is: is this a problem? I don't think so.
(DIR) Post #AWi9aAjtXVJHUzDCcq by pls@mrnet.pt
2023-06-15T09:24:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante Great read. Thanks for sharing. I agree with about half of the points raised and conclusions in your reasoning; regardless loved reading.
(DIR) Post #AWiGssbBuNrWQ10ZsG by ChrisMcZork@metalhead.club
2023-06-15T10:46:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante yup - definitely a very good summary on the pain points many users experience with the fediverse or more boradly, the Nerdiverse.
(DIR) Post #AWiHKuYSEKMWap5vu4 by teezeh@digitalcourage.social
2023-06-15T10:50:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @jacob Mir gefällt die Nische hier inzwischen sehr gut. Ich brauche es nicht mehr so groß wie Twitter. Deswegen habe ich auch kein Problem damit, wenn ActivityPub nicht linear skaliert.
(DIR) Post #AWijyhSv71poIUGdLk by yuliyan@nahe.social
2023-06-15T16:12:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @jacob The more I use alternative clients that overcome the UX culprits of decentralisation, the more I believe solving these issues client-side might be the easy fix mid-term. Take apps like Mona or FediLab. I can navigate other instances and interact with posts and profiles seamlessly. It is easy to forget that these posts never touched my instance. As soon as I comment, the app knows what to tell my instance. No need for awkward URL copying. 1/2
(DIR) Post #AWkehYggNuh4h9dCkq by HiMYSYeD@mstdn.ca
2023-06-16T14:22:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tante @jacob "...ActivityPub is the future without understanding that ActivityPub as a protocol has massive scaling issues built-in that grow worse the more the network federates making running a decentralized system prohibitively expensive."Switching "ActivityPub" for Bitcoin & "the network' for Bitcoin Mining in the above paragraph, sorta/kinda is food for thought.