Post AWgejamFymLFE0Wa3s by maegul@hachyderm.io
(DIR) More posts by maegul@hachyderm.io
(DIR) Post #AWfoVqRXk3Zs8oxY4u by maegul@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T05:46:19Z
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If there isn’t much cross-platform engagement between the #threadiverse and #mastodon, and Reddit migrants leave because of insufficient activity … is this a failure of sorts of the #fediverse ?I’m leaning yes. If cross-platform activity is essentially irrelevant but more of a minor awkward perk at times then the fediverse doesn’t exist (yet) at the level of being a social media platform or space.Instead, it’s a tool for FOSS platforms to scale through decentralisation.@fediversenews
(DIR) Post #AWfoVwnO7kcHqJE4xc by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-14T06:00:19Z
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@maegul to the contrary: there’s a bunch of activity on multiple fediverse platforms and people are mostly enjoying it, so that’s a success for the fediverse! And there’s plenty of cross-instances activity in the #kbin/lemmy world (despite the DDOS attack causing federation problems for Kbin.social) so it’s a decentralized success. Still plenty of rough edges of course but it’s actually gone much better so far than I would have predicted … ixnay on the egativitynay! @fediversenews
(DIR) Post #AWgejZPB56Hoy8idRw by youronlyone@calckey.social
2023-06-14T13:26:20.939Z
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@maegul@hachyderm.io @fediversenews@venera.social If they leave because there is not much interaction between link-aggregator types of software (as Wikipedia calls it) and Mastodon software, then it is the failure of those software, not the #Fediverse.Always remember, the fediverse is ALL software communicating through the #ActivityPub protocol. Mastodon is a software. Lemmy is a software. Kbin is a software.If your question is about the fediverse, then I don't see how this applies:I’m leaning yes. If cross-platform activity is essentially irrelevant but more of a minor awkward perk at times then the fediverse doesn’t exist (yet) at the level of being a social media platform or space.Because there is a lot of engagement happening in the fediverse network. It is not a “minor awkward perk at times”You have to reshape your thinking about what the Fediverse is.1. The Fediverse is not Mastodon. (That's like saying Asia is China.)2. Mastodon is just one part of the Fediverse network. (Or, China is just one part of Asia.)3. This so-called “threadiverse” is only one part of the Fediverse network, it is not a separate thing. (This usage of “threadiverse” is what's causing the confusion.)4. There is no “mastoverse” or any “-verse” because they can all interoperate, engage, communicate, with each other through the ActivityPub protocol.Your current thinking, if I may, is like this:a. There is a yahooverse (ref: threadiverse).b. And email (ref: fediverse) and gmail (ref: Mastodon) are interchangable.c. And sometimes it can also be called gmailverse (ref: mastoverse).There is no “insufficient activity” in the fediverse network. There are already some people who left who said there is too much noise, and it is so hard to keep up with everything.If Reddit migrants leave because of a supposed “insufficient activity”, it probably is due to the software they are using. Maybe the software has a bug. Or, maybe the software chose not to show to the users how very active the fediverse is, and their only interaction with the fediverse is if someone replies to their “Thread”. (And as an aside, this is where Kbin wins because it shows the wider fediverse through its “microblog” feature/tab.)---I hope it makes sense. It's hard to explain things if English is not not one's primary language, and with that I apologise if it was confusing or too wordy.
(DIR) Post #AWgejamFymLFE0Wa3s by maegul@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T13:53:27Z
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@youronlyone @fediversenews Yea, not sure I entirely agree.By "fediverse" I'm referring to the collective quality of the whole, however much any part is responsible.I'm also presuming (accurately enough AFAICT) that interaction between mastodon users and #lemmy/#kbin is not high compared to interactions internal to #lemmy/#kbin.Sure, the software has problems, but much of the attraction of the #threadiverse depends on the level of activity and number and size of communities.1/
(DIR) Post #AWgejbT9PIeXN2apv6 by maegul@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T13:58:22Z
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@youronlyone @fediversenews Part of the problem with getting a community based platform off of the ground is how to get sufficiently active communities. This is where the "fediverse" comes in. If the federation is a "killer feature", then arguably activity should spread across platforms and formats so that newer spaces and platforms become easier to seed over time.You highlight that the problem is software not the protocol. I agree! But then ask what value the protocol provides.2/
(DIR) Post #AWgejcDEdxW3fy9dke by maegul@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T14:02:07Z
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@youronlyone @fediversenews Generally, I'm probing at the possibility that too much is made of the protocol and not enough of the importance of getting the software right, not just specifically to a particular platform, but globally, in terms of the overall structures and designs of the platforms that are being built.I think we might agree here somewhat.Otherwise, you highlight that much activity occurs over the protocol. But that's between similar platforms. Lemmy<->Masto?3/3
(DIR) Post #AWgejcuU3A6vq6OBA8 by youronlyone@calckey.social
2023-06-14T14:53:02.174Z
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@maegul@hachyderm.io @fediversenews@venera.social you highlight that much activity occurs over the protocol. But that's between similar platforms. Lemmy<->Masto?Just to clarify, because I think I am not understanding you correctly:1. When you are using the trademarked name “Mastodon”, are you referring only to the Mastodon software?2. Are you strictly speaking about the Lemmy software and the Mastodon software in your “Lemmy<->Masto” example? You are not talking about in general, say, “BookWyrm<->Calckey” or “Pixelfed<->Akkoma”? Just strictly “Lemmy<->Masto” software, correct?
(DIR) Post #AWgejdWPm8S5jk8THk by maegul@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T15:59:12Z
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@youronlyone @fediversenews I'm happy to approximate most of the fediverse as "mastodon", and there are numbers to back that up. So any "masto" reference is both "mastodon" and loosely the microblogging fediverse at large.As far as my issue of whether the fediverse's large membership is seeding new platforms and spaces, it's sufficient IMO to just talk about mastodon.In the case of mastodon<->Akkoma/Calckey etc, they're similar platforms and don't count, though there are also issues there.
(DIR) Post #AWh3Y88Qd1YG3pWhQu by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2023-06-14T17:03:44Z
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@maegul @♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️ Again, that's because we have 10 million #Mastodon users who haven't even heard of #Lemmy, much less #kbin. They can't use what they don't even know exists.On top of these, we have at least 1.9 million Mastodon users who have at least heard of Lemmy, but who don't know that they can use their already existing Mastodon accounts to join Lemmy communities and /kbin magazines.If you want more interaction between Mastodon and Lemmy, then people on Mastodon with gajillions of followers like Eugen Rochko, Greta Thunberg or George Takei would have to advertise Lemmy and its Mastodon compatibility and link to the Lemmy community browser once a week for at least half a year until everyone and their dog knows.
(DIR) Post #AWh3Y92RGmM2rXjQjg by 0xSim@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T17:24:17Z
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@jupiter_rowland @maegul > but who don't know that they can use their already existing Mastodon accounts to join Lemmy communities and /kbin magazines.How? By using your mastodon account to follow lemmy/kbin communities, and have a messy and subpar experience? You can't use your credentials from instance X to login on instance Y, so if you want to correctly participate on lemmy/kbin, you need an account on one of these instances.
(DIR) Post #AWh3YC7rn3TkRFIJ72 by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2023-06-14T17:43:42Z
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@Sim :blobfoxcomputer: :ferris:How? By using your mastodon account to follow lemmy/kbin communities, and have a messy and subpar experience?(Deliberately used the quote feature here.)And the alternative would be to put the proverbial gun to Lemmy's chest and force them to adapt to Mastodon's "standards" for the convenience of Mastodon users?If Mastodon can't handle threads and posts with over 500 characters as properly as just about everything else in the #Fediverse, the problem isn't on the side of #Lemmy or #kbin. It's on Mastodon's side.Likewise, if Mastodon can't properly display quotes like the one above, and I've just demonstrated it can't, the problem is on Mastodon's side and not on the side of the many projects that do support quotes.Mastodon users tend to demand the whole rest of the Fediverse cut down on its features so that it works better with Mastodon and justify it with Mastodon having magnitudes more users than everything else combined.Also:You can't use your credentials from instance X to login on instance Y, so if you want to correctly participate on lemmy/kbin, you need an account on one of these instances.(Another quote which Mastodon can't display. Blame Mastodon. #Hubzilla here works perfectly well.)To take Hubzilla as a different example: So you want to only log into hachyderm.io, then go to hub.netzgemeinde.eu and create a wiki or a long-form blog or a photo gallery or set up a cloud storage with WebDAV, CalDAV and CardDAV right away, all with your hachyderm.io login? Is that what you want?
(DIR) Post #AWh3YCmzKAN8UmX9Cy by 0xSim@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T17:52:42Z
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@jupiter_rowland > Mastodon users tend to demand the whole rest of the Fediverse cut down on its featuresNo? Different apps have different UIs to fit their different features and ways to communicate.> So you want to only log into hachyderm.io, then go to hub.netzgemeinde.eu (...) Is that what you want?I want to use my Mastodon creds to login into any #Lemmy or #kbin instance. That's all I want. Not jump through hoops. I don't know if ActivityPub protocol permits this, but it should.
(DIR) Post #AWh3YFeweWilOhnGaW by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2023-06-14T20:06:33Z
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@Sim :blobfoxcomputer: :ferris: At least I've seen Mastodon users demanding that everyone who is not on Mastodon make their posts so that nothing about them disturbs Mastodon users.This means no actual quotes because Mastodon doesn't know quotes. This means no bullet-point lists because Mastodon doesn't know bullet-point lists.This means not more than four images because Mastodon has to convert images from certain projects to file attachments and attach them behind the end of the post, and Mastodon can't attach more than four files to one post.In fact, this means only one picture because Mastodon seems to order file attachments and pictures the wrong way.And this means no sensitive pictures at all because Mastodon can't hide them behind a CW when they come in from outside of Mastodon.Oh, and it means posts no longer than 500 characters.As for your other paragraph, there are two possible solutions for this. One is halfway realistic.The realistic one means to introduce #SingleSignOn in the shape of #OpenWebAuth (also invented by @mike) to Mastodon, Lemmy and /kbin. Then Lemmy and /kbin would recognise your Mastodon login. Also, this would require modifications to the Web UI for "guest users" as which you would count. Then you could do the same you can do now remotely from Mastodon, but on the Web UI of whatever Lemmy or /kbin instance you're currently on.But you would not have all features that users with a user account on that instance have, i.e. you can neither create nor moderate Lemmy communities or /kbin magazines.If you wanted these, too, this would require the second, impossible solution, namely the automatic creation of one user account for each Fediverse user on each Lemmy instance and each /kbin instance. This could be combined with OpenWebAuth, too, and automatically log you into your account on that respective instance. But whenever someone starts up a new instance, it would have to a) know all 12,000,000++ Fediverse accounts and b) immediately create one local account for each one of them.
(DIR) Post #AWh3YFoA6G5rrI6cxE by 0xSim@hachyderm.io
2023-06-14T17:58:00Z
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@jupiter_rowlandAlso:> (Deliberately used the quote feature here.)> (Another quote which Mastodon can't display. Blame Mastodon. #Hubzilla here works perfectly well.)> Mastodon users tend to demand the whole rest of the Fediverse cut down on its featuresThat's now how you'll get newcomers feel welcome and try your oh-so-superior hubzilla. Touch some grass.
(DIR) Post #AWh3bHrWv0Uh6B7yIy by jeff@federated.fun
2023-06-14T20:09:01.350308Z
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@jupiter_rowland @0xSim @maegul @mike mastodon hates long posts? skill issue tbh.
(DIR) Post #AWhLB2xLW05SVuU9FA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-14T23:59:47Z
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@0xSim> I want to use my Mastodon creds to login into any Lemmy or kbin instance... I don't know if ActivityPub protocol permits thisIt does... but only if the full spec is implemented, including the client>server part. John Mastodon has consistently refused to implement the c2s part of AP, preferring his own bespoke c2s API. Given the size of Mastodon, most other projects have followed his lead. Again, Mastodon decisions are the reason we can't have nice things.@jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #AWhLUJKKsBvkmyQMqW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-15T00:03:17Z
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@0xSimIf you want this fixed, grab a bunch of friend and a thermos of coffee each, and camp out on John Mastodon's doorstep until he agrees to implement the C2S part of AP.@jupiter_rowland