Post AWetMs68WdwvHPWkhk by oddtail@meow.social
(DIR) More posts by oddtail@meow.social
(DIR) Post #AWetMgPBzy3v12Lnk0 by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:24:30Z
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(1/15)I was thinking about Empire State Building. And in a few minutes, hopefully you'll be too.Imagine a city builds something EXACTLY like the Empire State Building (henceforth I'll call it "ESB" for brevity), except as public housing.Technology to erect ESB is a century old, but let's assume that it'd cost as much as it did back then. It was 41 million USD, about 600M in today's money.(rest of thread unlisted to avoid spam)
(DIR) Post #AWetMiXQ4Lpbd8DOqG by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:24:47Z
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(2/15)Let's say the building is three-quarters apartments. The rest is for small stores and other business serving up necessities. That's more than enough services so that people can mostly live within the building day to day and not really have to leave it at all on most days, for any reason.Let's divide the rest of the building into 100 m² apartments (~1080 square feet). Which is above the average apartment size for any individual US state.
(DIR) Post #AWetMkFlgwtswxyKbg by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:24:59Z
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(3/15)There can be 1566 of those apartments (excluding businesses) based on ESB's office space, but let's round down to 1500.So we have large-ish apartments, let's assume about 2.5 people live in each, on average. That's a conservative estimate, and as you will see in a moment, people can actually organise things better if they're willing to live with more roommates. So there will be plenty of space left over for tenants to use, potentially.
(DIR) Post #AWetMmspufL76iGYmO by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:25:10Z
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(4/15)Anyway, we have space for about 3750 people to live in more comfort and with more breathing room than is average for the USA (or ANY individual US state), and certainly MUCH better than the global average.We also have better access to everyday goods and services than a lot of small towns and CERTAINLY most suburbs and the like.
(DIR) Post #AWetMoXHllI0ESCNSy by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:25:22Z
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(5/15)The real ESB has over 70 elevators, so assuming the average person is OK with waiting for one about as long as they are travelling in one, and assuming a conservative 5 people per elevator in any given moment, the building can accomodate as much as 20% of all tenants being on the move in any given moment.That's wild. And completely unnecessary. So moving around is extremely easy and extremely accessible.
(DIR) Post #AWetMqITDocvh5HZeS by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:25:33Z
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(6/15)In this hypothetical scenario this is public housing, so the city provides those apartments to people who might need them, for free. They just have to pay rent. Let's say the rent is equal to about the US average.Which is a good deal, because it's a larger, much more convenient apartment for less money than they'd pay in any large city.But it's a big investment for the city, and it will never pay off financially, right?Wrong.
(DIR) Post #AWetMs68WdwvHPWkhk by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:26:04Z
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(7/15)The 600M cost of the building will be made back in 20 years or so, EXCLUDING any businesses operating there.Which sounds unimpressive until you realise that's still a bit shorter than the actual ESB, which was a for-profit construction, managed to make its costs back.So much for private business being good for the economy, incidentally. And again, ESB was built with profit in mind. It was not out of anyone's charitable impulses.
(DIR) Post #AWetMu3NFsvbLQFZg0 by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:26:15Z
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(8/15)And this, mind you, is still assuming we build something like the ESB. Costs of buildings rise FAST as the number of floors increases. You need more elevators, dealing with electricity and sewage and fire hazards and so on becomes VERY expensive, there are logistical hurdles and problems with materials and there's the wind and all sorts of things.
(DIR) Post #AWetMvsoS7fV1FKAUa by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:26:25Z
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(9/15)So let's build two 50-story buildings instead of one 100-story one. Those will still be huge and very efficient in terms of space used, but they will be much, much cheaper to build.I think it's fair to assume the total cost would be half that of one ESB-style building, but let's be conservative and assume it's 30% cheaper.Now we have two buildings that are actually PROFITABLE to the city within 20 years.
(DIR) Post #AWetMxl5Tog2prj1jE by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:26:38Z
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(10/15)OK, so we have a building that costs as much or less to live in than apartments rented from landlords, that is better in terms of everyday services AND moving around than most places people live in the US, and the city makes money off of it.But not everyone wants to live in such a huge monstrosity, right?
(DIR) Post #AWetMzRJEK2q36UGB6 by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:26:49Z
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(11/15)After all, if you think of New York, you think of all those huge buildings crammed so close together that the streets barely get any sun, right? Large apartments or not, it's still living in this mind-numbingly huge anthill, right?And here comes the best part.
(DIR) Post #AWetN1IALHv3nKDzCi by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:26:58Z
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(12/15)Let's assume we have a city that's about as dense, on average, as European cities like London or Berlin. Those are densely populated, but not exactly crammed full of people.If we want a city built ENTIRELY out of buildings like this 50-story half-ESB and we want a similar population density on average...
(DIR) Post #AWetN3G71tSttXHNHU by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:27:08Z
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(13/15)Those buildings will account for just a notch over 3% of the city's area.The rest could be roads - which will be simpler logistically, since every bus stop would be at the very entrance of a building, and would hardly take up any significant space. And public utility buildings. And businesses. And parks. Lots and lots of parks.
(DIR) Post #AWetN5CdnlsPvLfd9E by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:27:28Z
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(14/15)Let me reiterate. You could build a city about as dense as Berlin on average that's, EASILY, still 80% park. Those cities would be more walkable, more citizen-friendly, less congested in terms of traffic, and a city like that built from scratch would pay for itself within 20 years at most, just from rent alone. Again, we're not counting all the various businesses, within the apartment buildings or otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AWetN77OgEs1rfETFg by oddtail@meow.social
2023-06-13T18:27:39Z
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(15/15)Of course, what I just said applies to any public housing. Public housing is cheaper and more efficient, and it doesn't lose whatever entity builds it all that much money, even if tenants pay less than they would in the "free" market.We could theoretically have cities that are essentially parks, as developed as modern cities but cheaper.Why don't we? Well, no rich person would directly profit from it.