Post AWdmGKaPJaKqlof0XA by calcifer@hackers.town
(DIR) More posts by calcifer@hackers.town
(DIR) Post #AWcSoCwg2Mr2g2zdxY by calcifer@hackers.town
2023-06-12T15:28:06Z
1 likes, 8 repeats
People seem to really have bought into the capitalist version of open source where software is still a product that requires support and marketing and a roadmap and exists to serve a user community separate and apart from the project. But a whole lot of open source is really just a sharing economy. It’s devs doing something they found useful and deciding to share it rather than hoard it. Those devs don’t owe anyone extra labor just because they chose to share.
(DIR) Post #AWcYSoID6Ep9rVFGsK by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-06-12T16:35:12.272096Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@calcifer I have issues with both models and I believe that a better model for free software is possible.
(DIR) Post #AWdmGKaPJaKqlof0XA by calcifer@hackers.town
2023-06-12T21:32:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@msavoritias it’s a hell of a thing to think it’s a “mess” that there’s high-quality, free software that helps millions of people, just because those volunteers aren’t working on everything you care about. If you’re not willing to invest time and effort and money toward adding the capabilities you want, why do you feel entitled to demand others do so?It’s a lot like getting a free car and being mad at the person who gave it to you because it doesn’t have snow tires
(DIR) Post #AWdmGLYJiqG1lcgqum by calcifer@hackers.town
2023-06-12T21:39:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@msavoritias think of it this way: what stops you from contributing the features you care about? If your answer is “time, money, energy, etc that I need for other things”, then congrats—it’s the same reason the devs you’re complaining about haven’t done it. Every volunteer contributor has limited time and energy to work on things and has to choose what they’ll take on, based on what they know and what they can do
(DIR) Post #AWdmGMAxPBALhSli8u by ArneBab@rollenspiel.social
2023-06-13T06:38:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@calcifer I read A counterpoint to "must support": When I built Dryads Wake, I looked for a library for websockets. I found one. It was not supported and didn’t work for me, but with a few hours of work, I could make it do what I needed.That’s why Dryads Wake and Sun are on the web now:- https://dryads-wake.1w6.org- https://dryads-wake.1w6.org/sunIf devs were required to provide support, this websocket lib would not have been online and you could not play the game drafts online now.@msavoritias
(DIR) Post #AWdmGMsulkKNtnKoeu by teratology@the.asbestos.cafe
2023-06-13T06:44:30.085118Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ArneBab @calcifer this is super cute!
(DIR) Post #AWdnT5yn28sJBeiQXQ by ArneBab@rollenspiel.social
2023-06-13T06:52:57Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@teratology Thank you! 💓 Sadly it’s also still much too short — I got it now really easy to write those stories,¹ but writing still takes a lot of time (I always underestimate how much time it needs to write text) and I always get lost in other projects.¹: it’s like writing a theater script with some success-checks in between. Example: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-sun/browse/dryads-sun.w?rev=tip#L332@calcifer
(DIR) Post #AWfrNCzQqQJfKBNsWm by alexelcu@social.alexn.org
2023-06-14T06:51:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@calcifer It's complicated.People feel the need to provide support, marketing, a roadmap, if they want users, and especially if they have competition. You can work for fun, but fun isn't enough to take care of the drudgery, of that last 10%. So, if we aren't doing it for the money, we do it for the prestige of building something people want. That's not capitalism, it's just human nature.FOSS contributors eventually realize that working for money is better, capitalism being a solution…
(DIR) Post #AWfrgToQWUYr06QSmW by alexelcu@social.alexn.org
2023-06-14T06:54:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@calcifer And on the users' part, there's a strong entitlement complex that has IMO something to do with the open Internet that was built on ads. People behave as if they're doing FOSS contributors a favor by giving them their attention.But they aren't, nobody is entitled to the free labor of others. Users need to learn to ask nicely, and not get upset if refused or ignored. Otherwise, fork and do it yourself, pay up or GTFO.And yes, you can share just for fun, no strings attached.
(DIR) Post #AWnNYITGBzEu31ENE0 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2023-06-17T21:54:42.956Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@calcifer@hackers.town This is why I support the free software movement and not the open source software movement.Open source is a stolen movement focused completely on making money. They do not care about the ethics of free software, just practical benefits.
(DIR) Post #AWnQJ1g0ePrLTnbWAC by nihilazo@chitter.xyz
2023-06-12T15:54:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@calcifer my alternative take - if you release software for people to use, they are your users and as a responsible developer you should offer them support. Don't publish something for people to use if you can't support people using itI don't see this as a capitalist take but a user focused one, software should support its users, if you can't offer support for your software don't release it for people to use
(DIR) Post #AWnQJ2keedAYoUmk2i by alcinnz@floss.social
2023-06-12T17:23:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nihilazo @calcifer I reckon there should be different places to publishes which explicitly sets different expectations.Unfortunately today it all ends up being implicit!
(DIR) Post #AWnQJ3XvhQaJHJq5qa by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-06-17T22:25:09.804096Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alcinnz @nihilazo @calcifer Well, one where it's explicit is software shipped in a distro, where the distro is the first layer of support and upstream support is just about dev rather than users.
(DIR) Post #AWnQO2SdA8wrMMjizI by kevin@mastodon.km6g.us
2023-06-12T18:48:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alcinnz @nihilazo @calcifer It's not hard to make the situation clear in the README file in my experience. Not much different from the situation when the developer needs to stop providing support after some event in their life.Publishing it may give someone else a jumpstart in their own project and it would be a shame to keep that from happening just because you are 'throwing it over the wall'. You don't know if someone is on the other side ready to catch it!
(DIR) Post #AWnQO3RxU80MQZQhZw by alcinnz@floss.social
2023-06-12T18:55:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kevin @nihilazo @calcifer I'm not saying "don't publish it". I'm saying level-of-support is a valuable thing to segregate our searches for opensource projects on!
(DIR) Post #AWnQSKmgyh33LcAVBg by efraim@tooot.im
2023-06-12T16:06:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nihilazo@calcifer no warranty, implied or otherwise. You're welcome to roll up your sleeves and help though.
(DIR) Post #AWnQSLwIgSKOvhfgno by nihilazo@chitter.xyz
2023-06-12T16:08:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@efraim @calciferah yes because most users totally want to learn c++ to fix the problem they are having with your program which you as a developer released for them to use
(DIR) Post #AWnQSMi9oWbpK83uOe by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-06-12T19:01:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nihilazo @efraim @calcifer "For them to use" is inaccurate. Unless promoted as such, the default assumption is that the author released it because they don't believe in hoarding and wanted to share their experience solving their problem with others who share a technical skillset to make use of their solution.
(DIR) Post #AWnQSNJjYofPCfduy0 by reidrac@social.sdf.org
2023-06-12T19:25:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dalias @nihilazo @efraim @calcifer a friend used to say: it is open source, so when it breaks, you get to keep both pieces. That's how I see it as well. The dev doesn't have any responsibility with the users (if any).
(DIR) Post #AWnQSNwjDprJ9bt3kO by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-06-12T19:27:50Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@reidrac @nihilazo @efraim @calcifer In my view, they have *some* responsibility not to promote the program as more polished and suitable for particular uses than it actually is.But "don't share anything unless you're willing to do free support" is just a horribly destructive position.
(DIR) Post #AWnQWUzixUluAkFYJs by plexus@toot.cat
2023-06-12T16:17:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nihilazo @calciferI'm sorry but this is a really shitty and entitled take."because these people did all this work, they are now obligated to do more work"No, people get to release things on their own terms. They owe you nothing.
(DIR) Post #AWnQWW1t6w63NkGnKa by nihilazo@chitter.xyz
2023-06-12T16:27:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@plexus @calcifer do you not think that developers should offer support for the things they make? I think a world where you can reliably get support for things you use is a much better one than one where people release things they can't or don't want to support and then you have a problem with it and they just tell you to fuck off
(DIR) Post #AWnQWWps764xsleiEy by plexus@toot.cat
2023-06-12T16:33:53Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nihilazo @calcifer people have lives, people have jobs, people get to decide what they do in their free time. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that someone has to do this work. That you're asking for unpaid labor from those already contributing the most.Developers can choose to offer support because they want to. They can choose to sell some kind of commercial support. Or they can choose to... I don't know... spend time with their kids? Go chill in nature? Do something creative?You. Do. Not. Get. To. Decide. For. Them.
(DIR) Post #AWnR9CFyYkDPLrIuDQ by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-06-17T22:34:35.171825Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@msavoritias @calcifer Gnome mostly aren't just volunteers, at least not in it's usual sense.Most are on payroll from corporations (in fact Sun was the reason accessibility bits got there instead of being non-existant and because Sun was selling to governments), and the Gnome project explicitly provides support as well as promoting their software pretty loudly.they're not just publishing code on a random repository.