Post AWcDL09r0FldJ6lvM0 by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
(DIR) More posts by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
(DIR) Post #AWcDL09r0FldJ6lvM0 by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-11T20:12:55Z
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A lot of admins of larger Mastodon (and other Fediverse) servers are showing excitement for Meta launching an App in the Fediverse. Their reasoning mostly being "growing the Protocol is good!". Most feedback, is met with different versions of "growth is good". I want to take a minute to push back on this narrative that all growth is inherently good, because it absolutely is not. This type of thinking stems from the Silicon Valley VC crowd, where they pursue growth at all costs.#DefederateMeta
(DIR) Post #AWcDL0pgUjEBOqLKYS by argv_minus_one@mstdn.party
2023-06-11T21:13:04Z
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@fancysandwiches Remember what happened to #XMPP? Social media giants embraced it, extended it with features exclusive to their clients and instances, and then extinguished the rest of the federation by defederating themselves once they had enough users on their instances. I expect #Meta will do the same thing to the #Fediverse if given the chance. #EmbraceExtendExtinguish
(DIR) Post #AWcDL1oeq206Rws1aq by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-11T20:13:14Z
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Assuming all growth is good is an inherently capitalistic way of thinking, and one that does not care about quality, nor does it care about community. The drive for unconstrained growth leads to less safety, and privacy, for all. Meta made their money via surveillance capitalism, they're not going to pursue a Fediverse App without bringing surveillance capitalism to the Fediverse. They are not going to be benevolent. Profits will be extracted, shareholders expect nothing less.#DefederateMeta
(DIR) Post #AWcDL2ZS23Qmn4lOWu by paul@notnull.click
2023-06-12T12:38:21.083507Z
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@argv_minus_one @fancysandwiches we need an alternative 3 word phrase for the act of someone already using the fediverse, switching to a social media giant's instance, then realising their mistake too late and can't migrate back easily or speak to any of their previous contacts"roam, relocate, regret" perhaps?
(DIR) Post #AWcDL3enzdJA9yHBVw by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-11T20:13:21Z
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In the short term Meta may succeed in growing the fediverse, and folks are going to praise them for growing adoption of the AP protocol (they're already getting this praise and they haven't even launched). Meta may even put resources towards improvements that help smaller servers out. However, everything Meta does is going to be done purely to grow their Surveillance Capitalism Apparatus. Meta wants to profit off of you, and they are going to find a way to do it.#DefederateMeta
(DIR) Post #AWcDL5W15HSxvIBC5o by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-11T20:13:31Z
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This is not to say all growth is bad, or that we should avoid growth. We should be intentional in how we grow our communities, and we should not view growth as an inherently good thing. We need to think more about enabling positive outcomes for our communities. We should prioritize creating spaces where people can grow as individuals and find a sense of community, this is especially important in a world that is feeling more and more hostile to marginalized people every day.#DefederateMeta
(DIR) Post #AWn7Yp2ZV7tlnGyZoO by PricklyHeart@mstdn.social
2023-06-11T20:56:46Z
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@fancysandwiches If meta gets in, Im out.
(DIR) Post #AWn7YqNsVOXHxdx6f2 by ML2@akkoma.sandhill.social
2023-06-17T18:55:33.752542Z
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@PricklyHeart @fancysandwiches I'm going to wait and see. I'm prepared to block Meta at the first sign of shenanigans.
(DIR) Post #AWn7Zmrf4op3KoKi8W by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:35:55Z
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@fancysandwiches I get the concern, but I think a "Trust but Verify" is the right and better plan. I say this as an admin of a mid-level Mastodon server (indieweb.social) ...Treat Meta like any other big ActivityPub server. If they are responsible actors, all good. And watch carefully.But treat #Fediblock as the last-resort nuclear option it was meant to be.
(DIR) Post #AWn7aO9KS5wIyJsqJM by edendestroyer@masto.ai
2023-06-17T17:37:13Z
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@tchambers @fancysandwiches why, OH WHY are expecting good faith from #meta ? just WHY
(DIR) Post #AWn7aOvXYqVJNqRLSS by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:40:10Z
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@edendestroyer @fancysandwiches I'm not expecting anything. I'm saying start off watching them closely and treat them like any other activity pub server. And I'm saying Fedibocking is a nuclear option not a pre-emptive strike.
(DIR) Post #AWn7aoBhdtHrjDC6ca by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-17T17:39:21Z
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@tchambers I get that, but respectfully disagree. Meta has a rich history of abusing their power, and have not proven themselves to be good stewards. There is no reason we should trust them first. They can, and most likely will, have an outsized impact on Mastodon and the greater Fediverse. Not too long ago folks were very upset when the Mastodon app started making mastodon.social the default server, this is an even bigger deal than that. Meta should not be trusted.
(DIR) Post #AWn7aouiwVIdyqG3nM by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:44:11Z
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@fancysandwiches And if they do it with Barcelona, we have all the tools in our toolbox that we treat any server with. Doing a preemptive fediblock to actors who do not yet do anything wrong with the Fediverse (at least yet) is antithetical to what Fediblock was created for.
(DIR) Post #AWn7bCHY3oDuSI7744 by edendestroyer@masto.ai
2023-06-17T17:41:03Z
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@tchambers @fancysandwiches but theyre not like any other activitypub? theyre known by the whole world as the company that enabled and propogated extremism and genocide through surveillance capitalism? whats to see?#meta #SurveillanceCapitalism
(DIR) Post #AWn7bD1HJmnqk7VdLM by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:44:54Z
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@edendestroyer @fancysandwiches Functionally, to the Fediverse, that's all they would be. One big server with ActivityPub users on it from their side.
(DIR) Post #AWn7c3dLhU9ZvFilu4 by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:50:21Z
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@tchambers do we know that's the case? I could certainly imagine #meta doing something where people get their own domain, potentially for a small fee, either under p92 or on their own site -- @hrefna has discussed this. And @J12t has observed they've never used the word "federation". Or is there more specific info I haven't heard about yet?Anyhow it also sounds to me like your position of "trust and verify" is giving them the benefit of the doubt.@edendestroyer @fancysandwiches
(DIR) Post #AWn7c4S2f0heSTRFuy by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:55:50Z
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@jdp23 @hrefna @J12t @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches A number of public reporters have noted that Project 92 would incorporate ActivityPub... the leaked image (now confirmed by meta as accurate) shows a Barcelona user interacting with a mastodon.social account. And screenshots of the app indicate it is all centralized as one P92 service...but again, we'll see.
(DIR) Post #AWn7cNye414X15q3sG by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T17:56:13Z
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@jdp23 @hrefna @J12t @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches And I'd say "Trust but verify" doesn't equal "given them the benefit of the doubt" it means verify. But Fediblocking isn't a first-strike weapon, and shouldn't be used as such.
(DIR) Post #AWn7dnXOW3Yua3lXcG by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:01:06Z
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@tchambers Reasonable minds differ, I guess, but to me "trust but verify" means "initially trust unless/until verification fails". And fediblocking sometimes gets used preemptively, for example with Gab, and most recently by many sites with newsie.social when they briefly hosted Newsmax. @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches
(DIR) Post #AWn7doCA4UAicUq69w by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:09:40Z
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@jdp23 @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches Yes: I was very involved in the #IsolateGab movement back in the day. But for Gab itself that wasn't a feiblock first strike on the Fediverse side. Gab made clear their policies on hate and moderation they would use on the Fedi.And if Meta did the same in how they join the Fediverse - that is what we are working to verify if they do and go from there.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify
(DIR) Post #AWn7edisUbe4QjXRjc by edendestroyer@masto.ai
2023-06-17T18:10:54Z
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@tchambers @jdp23 @fancysandwiches what part of corporate propaganda are we not understanding? every corporate platform that hasnt unmasked keeps talking ahout their commitments while we keep getting reports after reports of their abuse and violence?
(DIR) Post #AWn7eeOM0Op2VMwZNo by misc@mastodon.social
2023-06-17T18:17:56Z
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@edendestroyer @tchambers @jdp23 @fancysandwiches The other advantage of a Trust But Verify strategy is that it makes it a lot easier to mount a coordinated response. My concern would be coming up with a tough list of potential bad actions and red lines, and organizing to get instance admins to agree to that. That will also be more powerful in exercising leverage Meta's behavior, assuming there is any leverage to be had.
(DIR) Post #AWn7fW9g7BAXFUUc0O by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:18:44Z
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@misc @edendestroyer @jdp23 @fancysandwiches Exactly ✊
(DIR) Post #AWn7fWtPN9kTXJt8Hg by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:26:52Z
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@tchambers @misc a unified list of red lines from the instance admins who are considering working with them could maximize your bargaining power (although also gives them a path to making commitments they won't honor to keep you on board)Although as I said in the discussion a while ago, I really don't see how "verify" will work with the kinds of abuses they've routinely done in the past. They've got a long pattern of lying and then stonewalling. @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches
(DIR) Post #AWn7fXTvBOxJMYyICG by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:29:19Z
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@jdp23 @misc @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches As an admin: i can verify them using all the tools I verify #Indieweb social against any other big server that might push content that violates our terms of use or standards. Same exact tools work here.
(DIR) Post #AWn7fY8gjpZ7P02qjw by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:35:46Z
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@tchambers It comes down to what red lines are. Do you have tools to see if they're running emotion manipulation experiments? If they're using fediverse folks' data without consent to target discriminatory ads? If they're lying about statistics (as they did with video ads)? If their moderation policies on messages from the fediverse disproportionately impact trans people?@misc @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches
(DIR) Post #AWn7fYqe6Oj9bKbxFw by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-06-17T18:42:53Z
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@jdp23 @misc @edendestroyer @fancysandwiches Admin work is for protecting OUR communities and we have all the tools we need for that. Anyone scraping public web data from the Fedi is able to do that NOW regardless of Fediblocking. (I'm sure Google and OpenAI already is)....
(DIR) Post #AWn7wRDVjCX2r9Lz7I by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-17T18:58:05Z
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@ML2 @PricklyHeart I predict that will happen shortly after launch. Best of luck.
(DIR) Post #AWn7wRpRSAsCkn6HEu by ML2@akkoma.sandhill.social
2023-06-17T18:59:50.137930Z
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@fancysandwiches @PricklyHeart I'll keep you posted on what happens.
(DIR) Post #AWnE0QulOT7OnlsBPc by fancysandwiches@mstdn.social
2023-06-17T19:10:13Z
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@ML2 @PricklyHeart That would be great! I am definitely interested in hearing about your experience in the future since you're an admin of an akkoma server.