Post AWa5QLBgif0b3maUeO by galdor@emacs.ch
(DIR) More posts by galdor@emacs.ch
(DIR) Post #AWa25pr7CWEYERUma8 by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-06-11T11:23:02Z
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Wait there's no CASE in #Emacs Lisp? And no structures? Now I understand why everyone uses cl-lib. It is so sad that Emacs was not built on #CommonLisp: Emacs Lisp looks like a primitive dialect in comparison.
(DIR) Post #AWa3sSDvx7OF5AuqHI by ericsfraga@fediscience.org
2023-06-11T11:43:01Z
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@galdor Sure... but it's #Lisp so we simply add what we want or need (and hence cl-lib).
(DIR) Post #AWa4aIOXrCrlLAmhAe by lispegistus@hachyderm.io
2023-06-11T11:50:56Z
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@galdor Well, RMS has a personal distaste for CL, and getting Guile to replace elisp is just as much a fantasy at this point as using CL, so we're stuck with it for now.
(DIR) Post #AWa5QLBgif0b3maUeO by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-06-11T12:00:21Z
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@lispegistus I would even prefer Guile to Emacs Lisp at this stage, at least it's somehow coherent.And I still remember the recent debates about symbol namespacing and idiotic arguments about CL packages being "just a reader trick".At least we got lexical scoping. There's still hope, it's not like RMS is going to be around forever.
(DIR) Post #AWa5dLCFzqNIqx3KRE by lispegistus@hachyderm.io
2023-06-11T12:02:42Z
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@galdor There is a giant graveyard full of Emacs in CL projects and every lisper it seems has to go through one at some point as a form of initiation, I think I did some very preliminary work on embedding clisp in Emacs in like 2011 or something, I was way too inexperienced for it though :)
(DIR) Post #AWa61W9EvndnlgAaLg by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-06-11T12:07:04Z
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@lispegistus What I meant is that several annoying aspects of Emacs Lisp could be fixed, such as the lack of packages.All Emacs competitors are doomed to fail unless they can perfectly emulate ELisp. Lem is the perfect example: it looks really interesting. But I'm not touching it until it can run Gnus, Org, Magit…
(DIR) Post #AWa7L5YxaFzn3s621g by ramin_hal9001@emacs.ch
2023-06-11T12:21:47Z
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@galdor @lispegistus Guile already has Emacs Lisp emulation, and it comes with the latest Guile default installation. Much of the work was done by Robin Templeton. It needs more work before it could fully emulate any of the most useful Emacs Lisp packages, but I think extending Guile's Emacs Lisp emulation is probably the easiest path forward for replacing Emacs Lisp with a modern programming language.Lem is also a good start, but there is no Emacs Lisp emulation yet (as far as I know), and you cannot just run Emacs Lisp as though it were Common Lisp and expect it to work, so I think Lem is not as far along as Guile is when it comes to emulating Emacs.
(DIR) Post #AWa8BsT6zz4pnXX4oi by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-06-11T12:31:20Z
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@ramin_hal9001 @lispegistus I tried to email the author of the Guile emulation project, but could never get an answer.The problem is not technical. I could not find any authoritative information about what Emacs maintainers think about this all Guile thing.In simpler terms, none of it matters if it's never going to be merged.
(DIR) Post #AWa8m2akq1LbcULpzs by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-06-11T12:37:53Z
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@galdor sure there is, cl-case, there is also pcase - and this notion that CL is the pinnacle of goodness is silly. Sorta like complaining that Scheme didn’t implement all of CL on top. Entirely different languages.
(DIR) Post #AWa8sfDa8i1L9dfdRI by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-06-11T12:39:04Z
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@galdor @lispegistus what utter disrespectful comment. It isn’t just RMS that is against packages.
(DIR) Post #AWa8xp7yitg1KvVg8G by ArneBab@rollenspiel.social
2023-06-11T12:40:00Z
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@galdor isn’t cl-lib *part* of Emacs Lisp?
(DIR) Post #AWa92hADlAui5KsjYW by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-06-11T12:40:54Z
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@galdor @ramin_hal9001 @lispegistus it is technical. And what the maintainers think is quite clear, that it has to be useable. The Guile VM replacement is not there yet.
(DIR) Post #AWaAOssJ00DQjOe8Lg by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-06-11T12:56:07Z
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@ArneBab It is a CL emulation layer. Nothing wrong with that, but it would not be necessary if ELisp wasn't that primitive.
(DIR) Post #AWaEJb9zplco9uek6q by andros@hostux.social
2023-06-11T13:39:59Z
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@galdor Python has had no switch (case) for most of its life, and has not been limited by it. Many times we look for tools that we know in other languages, and when we don't find them we get angry. But the problem is in us, we are not programming following the philosophy of the language. We all work with acquired vices. If it doesn't exist, maybe it has never really been needed.
(DIR) Post #AWaOfhoukglEj7yXtw by mykhaylo@fosstodon.org
2023-06-11T15:36:00Z
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@galdor https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/pcase-Macro.html
(DIR) Post #AWaZsG2eRSR5plaYoi by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-06-11T17:41:32Z
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@galdor If the lack of packages in Emacs Lisp is such a grave issue that you wish people die off just so that you can get your thing -- why isn't it an issue for Scheme? It isn't like Scheme (or Guile for that matter) has CASE, packages, etc etc etc.Emacs Lisp is an excellent Lisp for the task that it has at hand, these disparaging comments is something we don't need in the #Lisp community. And why it is important to realize that these are different languages with different goals.
(DIR) Post #AWafzQ3WCxAidynBtg by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-06-11T18:50:03Z
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@galdor @ArneBab cl-lib _is_ part of Emacs Lisp. To the point that it is used in Core (you couldn't once upon a time, since it would conflicts with redefined core functions and what not -- but today it is solved). Nor is there anything "primitive" about Emacs Lisp.