Post AWU9DqfZanbtns6aXY by js@mstdn.io
(DIR) More posts by js@mstdn.io
(DIR) Post #AWTmtrEPazrklMSmhs by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T10:28:08Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
As much as I love Torvalds' latest viral post on Mastodon, can we talk about the fact that this was once again caused by a major failure of the default moderation policies on the Fediverse?Like, how has social.kernel.org not blocked poa.st -- you'd think it should be opt-in to receive their bullshit, not opt-out. They're not unknown offenders.
(DIR) Post #AWTmtryqoL0r5OBs5g by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-06-08T10:32:43Z
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@delroth the challenge continues to be "who gets to define the default blocklist and why do you trust them with such power?" ...
(DIR) Post #AWTmtsuHMowxxV3jbU by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-06-08T11:04:06.188889Z
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@erincandescent @delroth Or who gets to write the trustworthy enough algorithm and verify it?(So you don't get something as bad as say Shinigami Eyes)
(DIR) Post #AWTogGjcB70LiKhrAO by glitch@pl.glitch.pm
2023-06-08T11:09:48.934886Z
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@lanodan @delroth @erincandescent tbh on a more basic level, I remember back in the day, Pleroma (software, not any specific instance) got mass-defederated from some big instances because one instance edited post privacy to always be set to public and some blocklist operator just suggested blocking Pleroma entirely. (Motivation being a misunderstanding of how it actually worked and assuming it had no moderation features whatsoever).Even if you have a plain and easy "import this" blocklist tool, it kinda overlooks the fact that a lot of fedi admins are by no means smart enough to make this decision. (Not to mention how many blocklists get cluttered up with personal drama.)
(DIR) Post #AWTogI1NOYo3hi1YUS by glitch@pl.glitch.pm
2023-06-08T11:10:59.938828Z
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@lanodan @delroth @erincandescent fedi administration already suffers a lot from "cool kids table" syndrome, idk if enabling it software-wise is the right solution.
(DIR) Post #AWTogKOUZaU93yr2nY by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T11:12:20Z
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@glitch @erincandescent @lanodan I'll take "cool kids table" over "Nazi bar" syndrome any day of the week.(Of course I'd prefer neither, my point is that if I had to choose one it would still be an absolutely trivial decision.)
(DIR) Post #AWTogLIVDLHvrh3m6K by glitch@pl.glitch.pm
2023-06-08T11:23:03.244530Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@delroth @erincandescent @lanodan eh, easy to say that when you haven't been on the wrong side of the "cool kids table" stuff.Nazi bar is largely avoidable, most instances aren't all that aggressive about ingesting statuses unless you subscribe to a relay (which is the main thing you should never do as an admin unless moderating the internet sewage pipe and how it ends up on your instance *is* your ideal free time)."Cool kids table" isn't bad on paper but it brushes up *hard* against "instance admins don't understand their own software" (in part Because Mastodon Lies). If you think every Mastodon instance with reasonable people is administered by reasonable admins, there's a rude wake-up call in store for the future. Most instance admins (especially those running mid-sized and large instances) are little better than most forum mods back in the day - easily bruised egos, assuming they know everything and disagreement over the most minor of issues gets you banned (this is on the degree of "I like show X more than show Y" disagreement," not bigotry) and if you're unlucky, a public meltdown.
(DIR) Post #AWTpDmgyNlbQNtS5Y0 by f4grx@chaos.social
2023-06-08T11:17:54Z
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@erincandescent @delroth moderation is inherently human and probably does not need large scale mechanical blockings
(DIR) Post #AWTpDnN9qvLYUjBmIi by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-06-08T11:20:23Z
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@f4grx @delroth I don't disagree with the principle that poa.st should probably come blocked out of the boxBut on the other hand every one of the popular "worst of the worst instances" lists has at least one entry which at the very least makes me raise my eyebrow
(DIR) Post #AWTpDpIyfRBuULFT3w by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-06-08T11:25:15Z
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@f4grx @delroth (maybe they're right but they generally don't include recipts so it's hard to tell)
(DIR) Post #AWTz4jOwFPDR75L2rQ by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T11:48:52Z
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@erincandescent @f4grx I agree, I think I'd still take that cost/price.(For example, I've had mostly pleasant experiences with qoto.org users, and they're "silented" almost everywhere. IIRC because their admin used a tool to figure out who had blocked their instance...)
(DIR) Post #AWTz4kCvFZCLc6ixlo by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-06-08T12:34:30Z
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@delroth @erincandescent @f4grx That's only one of many reasons. They enhanced their codebase with features to facilitate stalking and abuse, their stated purpose is "sea lioning as a philosophy", their admin is 'on the fence' about whether CSAM instances should be blocked, and they were part of launching a deceptive fediverse pact that was tricking legit instances into signing onto "we won't block nazis". Fuck QOTO.
(DIR) Post #AWTz4kweVXmHtw7U36 by f4grx@chaos.social
2023-06-08T13:07:59Z
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@dalias @delroth @erincandescent i'm not saying they should not be blocked. I'm saying there should be a place where bad instances are described with justifications, history, etc. And instances owners should be aware of these places and apply blocks manually, knowing what they do. My only concern is automatic blind blocking.
(DIR) Post #AWTz4lYwDCP1og23iy by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-06-08T13:09:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@f4grx @delroth @erincandescent Absolutely agree with the need for documenting the reasons.
(DIR) Post #AWTz4n9qHTW6lQJ2sy by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-06-08T13:08:52Z
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@delroth @erincandescent @f4grx QOTO is *the face* of "nazi and CSAM instances should be welcome on the fediverse" and laundering that as a respectable position.
(DIR) Post #AWU60VrzJZ2VfPrUX2 by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:38:39.390161Z
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@delroth I agree they should've already blocked poa.st tbh but I don't think making it the default is going to help much, if at all.Any big and common list of instances to defederate from is going to be biased by the people who manage it. Even if you make it a community voting process it can still be manipulated by both sides with bots or just big number of users.I think it's best to leave the decision of who to defederate from to admins of each instance and if you disagree with their decision you can, as a non-admin user, still block the entire instance yourself. I believe its best if we leave the choice to people.
(DIR) Post #AWU6KxnvAHD45zi9Ee by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:39:48Z
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@feinzer see https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/110509040588549506Your solution clearly does not work. You're suggesting "let's keep the existing state" when overwhelmingly the result is "people figure out that they had a choice hours too late and after the harm was already done to their users".
(DIR) Post #AWU6KyT2hO6S9WwzKa by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:42:20.077191Z
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@delroth Fair enough, but using a blocklist of instances still has their own issues of being biased and can be manipulated.I'm not trying to dismiss making any progress on this matter, I just don't think a big default blocklist is the answer
(DIR) Post #AWU6cc08xx1RghqMAi by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:45:33.044576Z
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@delroth Maybe pushing for better starter guides for managing each fedi software. Like a set up process that teaches you how to block instances on mastodon, akkoma/pleroma/whatever fork, misskey/calckey/whatever fork which can also include list recommendations of instances to block and each admin can then choose which one they'd like to block or keep?Teaching people better so they can make informed decisions, basically
(DIR) Post #AWU6pluhQLWKC7ZWyW by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:47:54.996337Z
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@slips @delroth I meant like if you had a community voting process for a blocklist of instances. For example let's say someone reports x.com instance, the users will then vote whether they think x.com should be blocked or not. That sounds nice on paper but can be manipulated by bots or big number of users.
(DIR) Post #AWU6uCLn4dzrLUM2F6 by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:48:43.797207Z
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@slips @delroth Yes and no, it wouldn't be a default blocklist, just a recommended one that you can choose to follow or just see the list and check which instances you'd also like to block.
(DIR) Post #AWU72TQpRxqIdfenom by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:44:03Z
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@feinzer I'm not saying it's "the answer", I don't think such a thing exists.I'm saying it's "a better answer", and that we should prioritize "a better answer" over "finding an even better answer" when the latter directly translates to "more harm towards users caused by inaction".
(DIR) Post #AWU72U70v7aQkVOUZU by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:46:15Z
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@feinzer (and note that while I believe "a big default blocklist" is a better answer, that's not even what I was suggesting: I was suggesting a set of blocklists to choose from, but making it an explicit decision that is *required* for your instance to even boot up.That set of blocklists could be curated in a centralized fashion with guidelines similar to how instances are picked for joinmastodon.org.)
(DIR) Post #AWU72UegtuWcQx9O40 by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:47:10Z
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@feinzer (I now realize that clarification happened in thread replies to my original post, so you might not have seen it -- but I never made the argument that there needed to be "one big default blocklist" either)
(DIR) Post #AWU72VCMshSo7OuHYW by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:50:11.733508Z
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@delroth Yeah I didn't really see it but I get your point. I was just replying to "you'd think it should be opt-in to receive their bullshit, not opt-out." which I interpreted as instances blocking specific ones by default
(DIR) Post #AWU7JVKddeLbSGslmK by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:51:43Z
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@feinzer I agree it could have been more clearly worded. IMO if an admin has to make an explicit choice at instance creation time between a set of blocklists (that I imagine would block poa.st) and "no default moderation, I like Gab posters and CSAM" that counts as opt-in if they choose the latter option :-)
(DIR) Post #AWU7JWaywN0zNFXKtM by feinzer@akko.airis.dev
2023-06-08T14:53:17.184883Z
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@delroth Yeah, having a setup process on the admin side that teaches the admin how to block instances and some recommended lists they can apply and/or check themselves it's a nice way to avoid these situations
(DIR) Post #AWU9DnRzYpxposjCSG by js@mstdn.io
2023-06-08T13:33:30Z
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@delroth As a user, I'm quite happy that my instance doesn't block a lot of other instances. I like to make my own decisions of what I see and what I don't see. Breaking federation is what's going to kill the Fediverse eventually - some instances basically block almost every other instance. However, I don't mind having ignore lists that you are subscribed to by default and can remove. In the end, it should be all about freedom of choice.
(DIR) Post #AWU9DoM0Calccavvl2 by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:18:58Z
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@js I think there's a middle ground to be found there: I suspect most users don't want to curate their moderation, especially not for egregious cases. Block lists also have the benefit of being preventive and not reactive, which is important when talking about potential harm to a user.I also think people feeling unsafe being themselves (please don't bring up the paradox of tolerance) is also more likely to break the Fediverse than defederation. The latter is theoretical, the former happens now
(DIR) Post #AWU9Dp03neoGcpfvCC by js@mstdn.io
2023-06-08T14:22:27Z
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@delroth I‘m absolutely not against having a default ignore list that you are subscribed to by default when you register. The problem is when I *want* to see a problematic post, e.g. for context, but can’t because the admin has decided to decide for me. I’m all fine with a default block list if there is an opt out.
(DIR) Post #AWU9DprEbxLPHkYO4u by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:25:32Z
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@js yeah, I do feel like server to server with no per user override is a suboptimal model. If that's your point I agree.
(DIR) Post #AWU9DqfZanbtns6aXY by js@mstdn.io
2023-06-08T14:59:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@delroth Yeah, that's essentially my point. S2S is on the wrong layer, and there should be an opt-out. Give control what to see to the user, not the admin.
(DIR) Post #AWU9DrTYaxaoItUVRw by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T15:01:42Z
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@js I generally agree with this, but I lack the experience to evaluate how problematic the approach would be in practice (from a UX perspective or from a technical perspective) and I don't think it should be a requirement for "federating with poa.st should be an opt-in decision and not an opt-out thing that happens by default without you realizing".
(DIR) Post #AWU9DsmNkSFGLZJ3Qm by js@mstdn.io
2023-06-08T15:04:13Z
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@delroth I guess this is personal preference. Personally, I like to see poa.st or even gab. I like to know what those I disagree with think and are up to and not live in my own bubble. But then again, I know about them and just ignore their bait. I wouldn’t even have replied like Torvalds did.
(DIR) Post #AWU9DtWSz76meUrrGK by js@mstdn.io
2023-06-08T15:06:19Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@delroth But then again, some instance block my instance because it doesn’t block e.g. poa.st. And that is just going way too far. I get blocked because I’d like to know what they are up to and get treated like one of them even though I have no connection to them. In German, we call this „Sippenhaft“ which is a big no no.
(DIR) Post #AWU9DtkI9iARLNKtoO by delroth@mastodon.delroth.net
2023-06-08T14:34:35Z
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@js (now that I'm on a non-mobile client...)I also strongly believe that minimizing harm is important and that this should be the focus over creating a perfect system.Right now users who get piled on by abusers are harmed, people who read those replies because they're made publicly visible and discoverable are harmed, and the Fediverse's reputation within the populations who should care about it the most gets harmed.