Post AWNFqB6xHLE7pBqzdg by siderea@universeodon.com
(DIR) More posts by siderea@universeodon.com
(DIR) Post #AWMz9jgVGHAnKjDljs by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T01:20:10Z
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Dear Mastodoners,I know a lot of you want all decent people of good intent to leave Twitter and come to the Fediverse instead. (If you are not such a person, this message is not to your address.)I've been noticing a lot of you quoting the recent Graniaud piece (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/03/twitter-conservative-media-elon-musk-ron-desantis), the bit that says "...Why is anyone who considers themselves to have liberal values still on it? Ego is probably the main answer to that question. ..."And I know a lot of you - in many cases, the exact same people - feel very strongly that Mastodon, if not the whole Fediverse, is not a place for commercial activity, and that businesses should not be welcome here. Not big brands, not not small businesses, not celebrities, not influencers, not any of it.Here's the problem:1/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9kRISIbTfr78fw by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T01:27:44Z
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Taking the position that all good people should leave the Nazi hellsite and come here is a perfectly reasonable, self-consistent position.Taking the position that commercial use of Mastodon is not acceptable and would-be commercial users are unwelcome here and should fuck right off is also a perfectly reasonable, self-consistent position.But they are mutually exclusive positions.The position everyone should use Mastodon instead of Twitter and nobody should use Mastodon for commercial activity is an irrational, self-contradictory position.You don't get to stamp your feet and pout in frustration that people aren't leaving Twitter for Mastodon, when you also have made it clear you don't want those people to join Mastodon, because they're using Twitter in a way you believe Mastodon should never be used.Pick one.2/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9l9ForlVsBgFBw by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T01:36:10Z
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Either take the position that the right people to come to Mastodon are those who want an exclusively social social network, where the point is to have one-on-one relationships with other individuals, characterized by mutuality, and not business transactions, parasociality, and consumption of entertainment/information content, and revel in all that other nonsense being left behind like the atheists during the Rapture,Or,Take the position that Mastodon needs to become welcoming to all that commercial usage - the brands and the influencers, the creators and the craftspeople - both in terms of culture, and in terms of finding out what those users' needs of the platform are, and moving to support them.3/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9lrZA7D85cPdGC by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T01:43:58Z
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Personally, I vote for the latter, because I would like Nazism to tank Twitter, and a mass migration of all decent people from Twitter to the Fediverse seems like the most likely way for that to come about.But I completely respect the other position. I think, "No, we have a good thing going, I don't want it to be changed" is a very legitimate position. I lived through the September That Never Ended; I am very sympathetic to that position.What I do *not* respect is the ridiculous position of slamming the door in some people's faces and then being pissy they didn't come on in.4/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9mXOeafgBLz2Se by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T01:51:11Z
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Please understand that commerce is not just of interest to the people (and organizations) with the commercial enterprises.Their customers and fans and followers are also invested in the commercial use of the platform.For instance, my primary use of Twitter has been to interact with brands. I am a business, myself, but I have never had my own commercial presence on Twitter, nor promoted my own enterprises there.But I have vendors I do business with, from which the only way to get decent customer support has been to embarrass them in public on the open internet.I can't do that here on Mastodon. At least not yet.(I'd like to.)5/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9nEI56yyKO3IJs by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T01:59:41Z
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The fact of the matter is that lots of people use Twitter to engage with commercial enterprises - even as their primary use case.That can be following musical artists they're fans of, or their fav crowdfunded creator, or lifestyle influencers.If you tell them that way of using Twitter is illegitimate and not okay over here on Mastodon, why would they come here *instead* of Twitter? You just told them Mastodon doesn't support their usage model.And if you don't let the commercial enterprises they are on Twitter to follow to come here, then you don't have to *tell* them they're not welcome. They have no reason to trade a Mastodon that does not and will never have the content they want for Twitter which already does.6/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9nu7ZaRWQ7chWK by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T02:21:41Z
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Let me tell you a story. I live in a certain town in Massachusetts that is a near urban suburb to Boston. I live here because I, who do not make very much money, can afford to live here. And I can afford to live here because this town has done a number of things to screw up its economy.One of those things it did was some decades ago, it decided - wait, back up. In Massachusetts, a "town" is a municipality that, unlike a "city" engages in direct democracy, or something pretty close to it. So when I say this town decided, I really do mean *the town*: the citizens, at least those who involved themselves in local politics and the political process, decided that the town should be "dry."I wasn't here then, but I am given to understand the logic was that the citizens saw the residential neighborhoods that were the predominant parts of the town as the only important parts.7/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9oTvQT5CDANIKO by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T02:30:38Z
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They saw their town as a quiet, family-oriented place. They didn't want bars in their neighborhoods, they didn't want public drunkenness. So they banned the sale of alcohol.All of it.Of course restaurants opposed this: restaurant owners explained that they overwhelmingly made their incomes on the sale of alcohol. But the residents didn't care. They liked having neighborhood restaurants well enough, but those restaurants would just have to figure out how to make it work without booze.Well, they didn't. I learned this story years later when I moved there and eventually asked, "Hey, why are there so few restaurants? You'd think with so many residents, there'd be a high demand for neighborhood restaurants."The home-owning citizens who decided this were, I hear tell, convinced that keeping out the sale of alcohol would preserve their property values.It did the opposite. It turns out that with no restaurants, your neighborhood isn't as attractive to live in.8/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9pKOHP3ApsvC6a by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T02:38:13Z
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Responsible people who want to have place to go out drinking would prefer their bar be walking distance away; they were less attracted to a neighborhood without neighborhood bars.And having to go to the next town to pick up a bottle of wine was just inconvenient.And having no restaurants, wine stores, or bars meant the town didn't have those businesses in its tax base. So it had to tax the home owners more to make up for the tax revenues.And it meant there were few places to go in town with any night life. It's movie theaters and live venues - okay, live venue, singular - struggled. Streets were deserted after dark.It simply had no culture, no interest. They'd made it into a "bedroom community": a place you went back to to sleep every night, that had nothing else of interest there. You lived your life - and spent your money - in the surrounding towns, and just stowed your body there when you weren't using it.9/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9qGWnFYRkC7ciu by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T02:47:16Z
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Well, they fixed it.Now, there are restaurants, and froofroo wine and beer stores. The theaters are doing well, there's little business districts which are pleasant and which people come out to enjoy.With the improved tax revenues, the town has more money for improvements.And home values went up.Turns out, commerce is necessary to have nice places to live.If you had asked the citizens who opposed the sale of alcohol here, they would have insisted they had no problem with commerce. They would love to have restaurants! It was just alcohol they had a problem with.But they were uninterested in listening to the businesses they said they wanted about what those businesses needed. The businesses, the restaurant owners, tried to tell them. They didn't care.I'm seeing a lot of people on Mastodon behave a lot like the people of this town did.10/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9u2UlMhrRpaTPE by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T02:58:08Z
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If you want Mastodon to remain a sleepy bedroom community, that's legit. It means it is a place where people have to leave for other online spaces to conduct most of their online lives, which means a lot of people won't want to bother with it at all. But it means the people who will use it will be sympatico with you.And if you want that, well, all you have to do is grudgingly allow commerce to be here and never ever take businesses' concerns into consideration when making decisions.It means you will have very little in the way of culture - few professional artists or artisans, and few who aspire to going pro - because those folks have to hustle hard to make ends meet, so they don't have time to burn on a platform that doesn't support them earning a living.It means you will have to have some financial basis other than charging businesses. (Which can be a good thing - but not something a lot of people are prepared for.)11/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9wPbwONwo6PxiK by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T03:06:38Z
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It means Mastodon will struggle for volunteers. That's a consequence of splitting people's online lives: it diminishes their emotional investment in any one platform. So there will be fewer people per capita who will be motivated to help out on things like moderation.There are probably other non-obvious consequences of deprecating commerce on Mastodon, that I am not even thinking of.These are trade-offs that are legitimate to make - just don't be surprised by them, and don't be surprised if a lot of other people don't like them.It's easy to take a hostile attitude towards commerce, without realizing what it loses you. Once people realize what those losses are, they sometimes decide that, actually, you know what, maybe we should rethink this.12/
(DIR) Post #AWMz9yTEHuT5Bu7sdE by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T03:24:36Z
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Now, a lot of people have very legitimate concerns about letting any sort of commercial enterprise or activity happen, well, anywhere, really, but definitely here.The history of the internet, from Cantor and Siegel's first green card span to today, has been the history of businesses behaving badly on it.But I want to propose to you a new notion, something that will give you a whole new perspective on the problem.I propose to you that there are two fundamental interlocking problems at the heart of the internet's problem with commerce.One is a false dichotomy which foreclosed a whole vast swath of the solution space.The other is a matter of power relations.13/
(DIR) Post #AWMzA0bSMIElnzzTjU by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T03:30:01Z
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The false dichotomy is this: do we allow commerce or not?This has been driving me up a wall for 30 years. There are more than the two choices of "don't allow commercial activity at all" and "let all commercial activity without any limits". The choice is not between no business and letting businesses run feral.You know, we could have *rules* on how businesses conduct themselves. We could have standards of conduct specifically for commercial activity.Or rather we could, if not for...14/
(DIR) Post #AWMzA2EqHLKusRQRlI by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T03:35:42Z
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If not for the fact that social media has not been a democracy, has it? Twitter is not a democracy. Facebook is not a democracy. We the People have been allowed no voice in what the rules of conduct for anyone on those platforms will be.At best, to whatever extent a platform provides users with tools to moderate they allow users to establish rules for other *individuals*.But the corporate owners of commercial social media platforms make their money from advertisers and other business uses of their platforms. So the last thing such corporate owners would ever, EVER do is allow the users to limit the conduct of businesses.Which is why it might not ever have occurred to you that is even a thing that could be done.15/
(DIR) Post #AWMzA4ZTbb1w715xCa by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T03:44:45Z
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But Mastodon doesn't have a corporate owner, does it?We actually have the power to do things differently.In fact, Mastodon is a chance for us to have a do-over on the early internet.I mentioned above that the false dichotomy has been infuriating me for 30 years. It's my contention that where it all went wrong is that the entire discussion of what to do about businesses participating in the internet was wholly in those binary, yes/no terms.Nobody even *tried* to formulate what right internet conduct for a commercial entity might look like.But we could do that. We could actually ask the questions, "What does a business conducting itself prosocially online look like? What rules describe that? How can we enforce them? What do businesses *actually* need? And how can we meet those needs without destroying what is good for the individual?"16/
(DIR) Post #AWMzA7u9DCLcRzn0L2 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T03:55:49Z
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And you know what's really amazing? Putting limits on the conduct of businesses is actually good for them. It's actually good for business.In an environment where anything goes, businesses have to keep up with one another's bad behavior to complete for market share. This is often expensive (and for small businesses exhausting and ruinous), and also leads to ruining of commons.For instance, in an environment in which there's no limits on advertising, since the biz with the most ads gets the most brand recognition, and thus the most market share, all businesses have to compete with one another for who can get the most ads in front of potential customers. This leads to an advertising arms race. Which in turn saturates the audience such that ads stop being effective.Now imagine a world in which there were limits to how much a commercial entity can advertise.The world isn't coated in ads. Businesses spend less for more effective ads. 17/
(DIR) Post #AWMzAABwhzlzXm8FMG by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T04:03:25Z
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In fact, a whole bunch of interesting things happen if you basically take marketing for sheer name recognition off the table. The ads that remain need to have more informative content. Brands need to compete on things other than price.And on the internet, well, there's all sorts of innovative things that could happen, that are vastly more pleasant experiences for the rest of us.I mean. People voluntarily go to malls and craft fairs and farmers markets and flea markets and gift shops *for fun*. Commerce doesn't have to be billboards and circulars in your mailbox you don't want. Commerce doesn't have to be surveillance and stalking.Commerce doesn't have to be nonconsensual.18/
(DIR) Post #AWN88KK0yOpPyD6aEi by SchizoCynic@poa.st
2023-06-05T05:59:30.713763Z
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@siderea Shut the fuck up you stupid cunt nobody wants this bullshit on their timeline. Stop flooding my fediverse with your intellectual jacking off
(DIR) Post #AWNEUyTaxYwubRljBA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T07:10:44Z
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@siderea > I have vendors I do business with, from which the only way to get decent customer support has been to embarrass them in public on the open internet. I'm very sympathetic to your reasons for doing this.But I'm also am totally unsympathetic to the Titter culture of symbolic, public lynchings and have no wish to see it happening here. Even when the target is a corporation I'd prefer not to exist.> I can't do that here on Mastodon. At least not yetI see this as feature, not bug.
(DIR) Post #AWNFGO4PcVhZaib86K by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T07:19:19Z
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@siderea> But Mastodon doesn't have a corporate owner, does it?Technically it does; Mastodon gGmbH, who own all trademarks for this use of "Mastodon" and related logos etc, as well as copyright on the source code (unless they let contributors keep their copyright?).But the fediverse? No, that doesn't have a corporate owner.This is an example of why it's important to say "fediverse", not "Mastodon", when you're talking about the network that includes servers running the Mastodon software.
(DIR) Post #AWNFSYoZUwdeODzdjM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T07:21:30Z
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@siderea > Commerce doesn't have to be nonconsensual.OMG this!#funding #commerce
(DIR) Post #AWNFpy5lgRYLRkCMU4 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T04:16:49Z
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Here's a way of thinking about social rules that I think we'll find useful in wrestling with these questions.I posit that here on Mastodon there's three layers of rules:1) Whatever rules are baked into the actual software. Like if there no affordance for rich text in Mastodon, then it's pretty much the same as there being a rule against using rich text in posts on Mastodon. This may sound like a weird way of looking at things, but the affordances of social software can be policy decisions about what conduct is allowed, and if you don't see what I mean, go back and mentally replace "rich text" with "quote toot".2) The official rules of conduct adopted by individual instances. This is what most people think of as rules.19/
(DIR) Post #AWNFpywEXNWK4SkGGG by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T04:23:37Z
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3) Social norms. Groups of people can - indeed almost inevitably do - develop a common understanding as to what is considered acceptable behavior, which is enforced by social pressure. This will happen emergently without anybody intending to or even really realizing what those norms are. But they can also be shaped intentionally, both informally - through individuals speaking their minds - or formally - through people making a deliberate effort to bring the community norms to everyone's attention and asking that people consider changing them.We, the People of Mastodon, have the opportunity to flex our might on all three levels.We are already seeing this in many ways. We have people running instances on forks of the code with different affordances, and writing new client apps that support innovations. We have different instances with different rules. We have a robust discussion about social norms.20/
(DIR) Post #AWNFpzetrJFWIzdvsm by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T04:32:54Z
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Now apply all that to commercial entities and activities. Because that's the missing piece. All our efforts have been focused on regulating the conduct of individuals as individuals. As usual, the idea of regulating commerce as commerce is nowhere to be seen.Let me put it to you this way: US law presently holds that corporations are people before the law, and thus are entitled to all the same rights as people.I, for one, think this is *insane*. I don't think businesses should get to invent fictitious people who get rights which then the business gets to enjoy. Like WTF, *no*.I expect you, gentle reader, feel likewise.I think it's obviously sensible that businesses should have fewer rights than actual people. And concomitantly I think there should be additional rules on businesses, business-specific rules to regulate their conduct in engaging in business.21/
(DIR) Post #AWNFq0LnHpYoS1iBk0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T07:25:44Z
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@siderea > US law presently holds that corporations are people before the law, and thus are entitled to all the same rights as people.> I, for one, think this is *insane*. I don't think businesses should get to invent fictitious people who get rights which then the business gets to enjoy. Like WTF, *no*.Hell yeah.Given that this is exactly what a corporation *is*, it follows that corporations (fictional persons that exist to grant special rights to businesses) shouldn't exist.
(DIR) Post #AWNFq1wLNQOJNfotLk by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T04:47:28Z
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So when I say above that I think we miss out on a lot if we reject commerce, I am not for a moment suggesting we let business interests run riot here.In fact I mean the exact opposite. I'm bringing the whole issue up to say, how about this time, we don't do that. How about this time, we try to do it right. How about this time, we engage with the question of how to make this work - how to make this work out such that our online spaces are ones that are good places for people.And the great thing is, we don't gotta wait for anybody's permission. We don't gotta beg some corporate interest to listen to us.We just gotta start talking to one another.Especially in light of that third layer, the one of social norms.For instance...22/
(DIR) Post #AWNFq4KWUUv8nF9EJc by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T04:59:08Z
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One idea that's occurred to me - I am not sure I am convinced, myself, but I'm entertaining it - is that maybe we should expect/demand that a corporation's Fediverse presence should be on their own damn instance.Now, an individual can be incorporated, and maybe it's unfairly burdensome to expect every incorporated individual craftsperson to run their own instance or not engage in commerce on the Fediverse.Maybe there should be a size limit, or maybe the line should be "if you are speaking anonymously for your brand" - you know, like Steak-umms(tm) has a Twitter account where we never learn the identity of the human(s) posting there, even as nyms - "then get an instance".23/
(DIR) Post #AWNFq6by0c3vrvKBma by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T05:05:52Z
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But I am thinking that that expectation might be desirable, because it means the bad conduct of a business doesn't make trouble for the individuals on its instance - it can be individually federated - and, contrariwise, no instance behaving badly can use "but if you defederate us, you'll lose access to all these brands your users want access to."(OTOH, it might be nice to see some instances run as for-profit malls/craft shows/ flea markets. Businesses only, no individual users Where part of the deal is that businesses there agree to abide by the rules of conduct for that instance, and the instance owner enforces the rules, so customers/shoppers have an authority to complain to if a business gets out of line.)That's the kind of thing we could discuss. That's the kind of norm we could develop if we wanted to.24/
(DIR) Post #AWNFq8pVlE5KkVg2Ai by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T05:16:00Z
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Cause here's the thing. If it becomes a commonplace attitude among Mastodon users that certain behavior is unbecoming of a business - "ugh, why is Coors on Mastodon.social? Must not be enough customers in the mouse-piss market for them to afford their own instance." (fictionalized example) - it will, for one thing, put pressure directly on businesses.But for another thing, that's where rules - the level 2 kind - can come from. When there's a widespread general sentiment that something is a right standard of conduct, people start thinking, you know what, maybe we should make that official.And it can even bubble up to the first level.For instance...25/
(DIR) Post #AWNFqB6xHLE7pBqzdg by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T05:28:24Z
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If there was a widespread sentiment - a norm - that accounts that existed to promote a product or company had to be identified as such in their profile, it could become a thing that that identification be reified in the platform. There could be a "promotional" bit that could be flipped for an account.And then there could be apps that, when a user follows an account flagged "promotional", it offers to put it on a separate "Promotional" stream (list) from your default toot stream. And/or an app could give the user the ability to rate limit how many promotional toots they are shown from each promotional account they follow, like "show me only the first toot from LLBean each week, but the first toot from Abercrombie and Fitch each day. And I want to see everything Taco Bell posts."The norm could become something the software supports to empower users to control how businesses interact with them.But that kind of change, the norm has to come first.26/
(DIR) Post #AWNFqDT0WK3T8ABdI0 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T05:42:28Z
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I present these examples not because I think they are great ideas you should adopt but in the hopes they will inspire people to come up with even better ideas. I think there's a whole *world* of possibilities here we, the citizens of the internet, have never even explored.If we want to, we get to choose how we want our online societies to be, and how we want commercial enterprise to fit into it.We don't have to be passive recipients of received forms of social organization and power relations.All it takes is something we internet denizens are famously good at: developing opinions about things, and then arguing them out with one another.It's just in this case, we need to start developing opinions about something I think most people have never thought to have an opinion on.This is long, and the fingers I have mostly used to chisel this out on my phone are starting to go numb. So allow me to conclude with an admonishment.27/
(DIR) Post #AWNFqFl9znlQF2h9rU by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T05:49:17Z
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Or two, as the case might be.First, as in the example I gave from my town, any such effort to formulate norms and rules for commercial activity on the Fediverse cannot possibly work out well if it has no input from users who are or would be using it for commerce.You're gonna have to talk to them and you're gonna have to hear what they have to say. You don't have to believe everything they tell you, and you don't have to give them everything they (think they) want.But if you don't actually find out what they actually need, you can make an environment sufficiently inimical to their existence, they won't. Exist. And then what's the point? That's just self-sabotage with many, many extra steps.28/
(DIR) Post #AWNFqIDar3hDro0tSS by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T06:03:43Z
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The second is that you must - I cannot stress this enough - *must* bear in mind the extraordinary diversity of commercial entities and activities online. It would be so easy to legislate rules for business with only, say, IBM in mind, and forget that a disabled knitter selling artisanal pride-flag socks as a side gig to supplement zir SSI is also a business. So is the Patreon-supported writer who is 100 chapters in on her wildly popular Marvel/Shakespeare crossover AU fix-it fic. So is the YouTube star with 2M followers and a philanthropic empire. So is the latest K-pop phenom. So is the nonprofit charity bringing lifesaving medical care to people who would otherwise not get it, which would like to ask you to buy tickets to their fundraiser. So is the mom-n-pop corner store down the block from you. So is the rental property management company that looks after 200 buildings in your town. So is your landlord.29/
(DIR) Post #AWNFqKZI7MEz9gBFYW by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-05T06:13:54Z
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Here's the thing: you don't need to make one-size-fits-all rules! You can have different size rules for different size businesses! Or have different rules for different kinds of businesses, or different kinds of business behaviors. Don't let yourself get boxed into the idea that you somehow have to accommodate all of the above in the same way.Feel free to propose slicing the pie in creative ways, that reflect what you really feel the distinctions should be.Finally, remember that trying to regulate the conduct of business can be hard because they can be wily and full of guile and also lawyers. But don't let that stop you. It's absolutely possible.It starts with just having the belief that you have the right to try.Just having the attitude that you have the right to try? That can change the world.30/30
(DIR) Post #AWNGBhczZrUckr6PmS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T07:29:39Z
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@siderea > I posit that here on Mastodon there's three layers of rules:> 1) Whatever rules are baked into the actual software. Mastodon has only this one layer of rules. The other two layers you mention are properties of the fediverse, but not of Mastodon. The first layer is a property of the fediverse too, because if you swap out Mastodon for a different app (eg Friendica), everything you say on point 1) still applies to the fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AWNIPbQtbi4rVHCTxo by 0x0ddc0ffee@infosec.exchange
2023-06-05T04:07:37Z
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@siderea That does leave Instagram, Tiktok everywhere except Montana, and Facebook. Now that Musk is actively replatforming literal nazis promoting domestic terrorism and genocide, no one of conscience should still be on that platform.
(DIR) Post #AWNIPcMKAC0yNO4LTc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T07:54:22Z
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@0x0ddc0ffee> Musk is actively replatforming literal nazis promoting domestic terrorism and genocide, no one of conscience should still be on that platformMaybe this is perverse of me, but whenever I read posts like this, it actually makes me want to have a look at what's provoking these outbursts of middle-class pearl-clutching.Eg "Domestic terrorism" is used by spy agencies and corporate PR as a slur against direct action groups like the ELF, Earth First, ALF, and Sea Shepherd.@siderea
(DIR) Post #AWNJ2SLtIqSYdMO07E by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T08:01:21Z
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@0x0ddc0ffee Accusations of being "literal nazis" are sometimes true, but also sometimes agit-prop (eg Putin's accusations against Ukraine). Support for the human rights struggles of Palestinians are sometimes slandered as expressions of "genocide" against Jews. No such accusation ought to be taken at face value. @siderea
(DIR) Post #AWNJAWSZuitrgtMOxM by 0x0ddc0ffee@infosec.exchange
2023-06-05T08:02:48Z
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@strypey @siderea I talking about people with swastika flags who want to murder me because of who I am.
(DIR) Post #AWNJVq22LDB8TP6s7s by PrimeRat@mstdn.social
2023-06-05T06:34:48Z
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@siderea One of the aspects i loved about Twitter was following indie artists and seeing their new work. I started a Mastodon account to post my own art and was immediately yelled at on my intro post for being an "announcement mouthpiece". It immediately took all the joy out of Mastodon and I've been checking in here less and less, and I'm back to making my new art posts over on Bird, because I have to make them somewhere. People need social media to fit their OWN needs, or they won't use it.
(DIR) Post #AWNJVqvh0HhLG19JsO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T08:06:14Z
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@PrimeRat> I started a Mastodon account to post my own art and was immediately yelled at on my intro post for being an "announcement mouthpiece"Lots of accounts here are for announcements, this is perfectly normal. I'm sorry this terrible behaviour was your formative experience here. But that's what the Report, Mute, and Block tools are for. Trolls gunna trolls, please don't feed them by letting them influence your platform choices.@siderea
(DIR) Post #AWNcxttfSl4hhKI2am by Hiker@social.fedcast.ch
2023-06-05T07:34:10.893891Z
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@strypey The Mastodon software is Open Source - so if you will take it over you have to comply with the copyright for open source.But I can only totally support your last sentence - it is very important to understand the #Fediverse. @siderea
(DIR) Post #AWNcxubyo0WJul1Qf2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T11:44:53Z
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@Hiker> The Mastodon software is Open Source - so if you will take it over you have to comply with the copyright for open sourceThat's right. Everyone has to abide by the terms of the AGPL license (which is a copyright license) to have a legal right to use the Mastodon source code. Except for the owner(s) of the Mastodon copyright, who can do whatever they want with any parts of the code they own copyright over, including proprietary relicensing.(Standard disclaimer: IANAL)@siderea
(DIR) Post #AWNd8AD9f4YxBwIaGW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T11:46:46Z
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@0x0ddc0ffee> I'm talking about people with swastika flags who want to murder me because of who I amWell this particular people can take a long walk off a short pier. But that doesn't change anything I said here.@siderea
(DIR) Post #AWNdZGxKgzj9vepBU8 by chris@s.the-brannons.com
2023-06-05T08:47:30.976207Z
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@strypey @siderea This is an excellent point worth repeating, because I struggled with it atone time. I used to say mastodon when I'd mean fediverse, mainly becauseI thought people might be more familiar with the former than the latter.I've mostly mended my ways.There's a very good reason for not using mastodon as a generic placeholder.
(DIR) Post #AWNdZL6LHRJKml4R5E by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T11:51:39Z
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@chrisThe fediverse isn't a great name. I realized this when I started saying it to people out loud. But to paraphrase Neitzsche, if the name didn't exist, it would be necessary for us to invent it (or something else that serves the same function).@siderea
(DIR) Post #AWOv2fFhKbz23iyXrc by 0x0ddc0ffee@infosec.exchange
2023-06-06T02:42:06Z
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@strypey @siderea Your hair-splitting isn't going make me any less dead if the far right takes full control of this country. And "middle class pearl clutching"? Seriously? Though I did work in tech, long ago, none of the jobs I've had in over a decade paid more than $15 an hour. I'm trying to retrain as medical assistant. IF I can get a job, my duties will include cleaning up vomit. Does that sound middle class to you?
(DIR) Post #AWP4LTRENYMaVZPiqm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-06T04:26:23Z
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@0x0ddc0ffeeI'm commenting on the style of your comment, not your income or vocation.FWIW class is a social phenomenon, not an economic one, and there are a lot of other things that determine the class perspective of our politics. See:https://web.archive.org/web/20180528153508/http://sasamat.xen.prgmr.com/michaelochurch/wp/2012/09/10/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/Thanks to decades of neoliberalism, many people working unskilled labouring jobs see themselves as temporarily embarrassed billionaires, and they identify politically with their bosses, not their fellow workers.@siderea
(DIR) Post #AWP7c6tdk2npNiKIoS by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-06T05:03:00Z
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@strypeyThis is an extraordinary poorly formed argument, in several ways. Most obviously, it's a naked logical fallacy to propose that because term can be willfully misused, all uses of a term are willful misuses, e.g. the fact that the term "domestic terrorism" can be misapplied to peaceful or even violent but not terrorist organizations does not mean that there is no such thing as domestic terrorism and that use of the term is somehow disqualifying of a contention.But less obviously, @0x0ddc0ffee made a specific allegation. Retorting with generalities does not address that allegation, except perhaps by vague insinuation. If you think they're wrong about Musk, present your argument if you have one, or fuck off. Saying "No such accusation should be taken at face value" to the person who is making the accusation is trying to insult by inference from a platitude instead of actually engaging with it.
(DIR) Post #AWP95Edi8FBxkSKMOu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-06T05:19:31Z
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@siderea> it's a naked logical fallacy to propose that because term can be willfully misused, all uses of a term are willful misusesIt certainly is. Which is why that wasn't my conclusion, but rather that...> No such accusation should be taken at face valueie one needs to check whether such accusations are fair comment or PR talking points.> @0x0ddc0ffee made a specific allegationMaybe I missed that? All I saw was the post I replied to, which was in no way specific.@0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWP9Ug7L6guyD1Jn1c by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-06T05:24:01Z
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@strypeyYou literally quoted them making a specific allegation. @0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWP9a4W1p37jKJRDsW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-06T05:24:41Z
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@siderea> trying to insult by inference from a platitudeCriticize? Certainly. If people feel personally insulted by criticism of their ideas... 🤷♂️What I find interesting is the intellectual contortionist act you're going through to turn an off-hand comment into a misdemeanor. As if showing I'm a Bad Person (TM) somehow makes what I said less true. Both this and the original comment I replied to are classic Vampire's Castle tactics:https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/@0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWPARqX21uvlatY6Jk by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-06T05:34:35Z
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@strypeyNo, you never managed to get off an actual criticism. Nothing you said was about their actual contentions.I am not telling you why I think you're wrong. I am telling you why I think you suck. Totally different endeavor. I'm not "showing you're a Bad Person(tm) to make what [you] said untrue." I'm showing you're a bad person to show you are a bad person. Or more accurately, I am showing you are a bad disputant in a way that suggests you are engaging in bad faith, and the only person who is showing you are a bad person is you. @0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWPBj54XK2M7ZF0DUu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-06T05:49:07Z
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@siderea> You literally quoted them making a specific allegationI guess we're working with very different definitions of "specific"?As I use it, "Ted Kaczynski sending mail bombs full of nails is domestic terrorism" is a specific accusation.> Musk is actively replatforming literal nazis promoting domestic terrorism... is about as unspecific as you can get without replacing "Musk" with "that asshat".@0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWPCsSsWHSaxxfQ7FY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-06T06:01:42Z
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@sidereaThis post just provides further examples of what I pointed out in the post you're replying to. This bullying may work for you in the Vampire's Castle, but to those of us who don't go there anymore, it's just noise.@0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWPDD5NYqUn5A1lx44 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-06-06T06:05:43Z
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@strypeyBruh, pointing out your bad behavior isn't bullying you. @0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWPH5YxtMTWEQ6Qz56 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-06T06:49:09Z
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@siderea> pointing out your bad behavior isn't bullying youYou said:> I am telling you why I think you suck.> I'm showing you're a bad person to show you are a bad personThis is bullying. You are the only one engaging in "bad behaviour" here. But it doesn't make you a "bad person", there's no such thing (what you're doing there is called essentializing, which is a form of dehumanization). I think you're capable of transcending this 'bullying as politics' and I hope you do. @0x0ddc0ffee
(DIR) Post #AWRMio9ViWIgu5JzJw by otyugh@pouet.chapril.org
2023-06-07T07:01:39Z
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@lispi314 @siderea