Post AWEcmPMGuqMNNMY9i4 by lxo@gnusocial.net
(DIR) More posts by lxo@gnusocial.net
(DIR) Post #AW5N3qf1mjRQOq4AmO by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-05-27T16:07:16Z
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wake up, europeans and USianshttps://gnusocial.net/url/16830751
(DIR) Post #AWEcmO83UDOTYytHua by jschwart@mas.to
2023-05-27T16:42:21Z
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@lxo the problem with articles like these (there have been quite a few) is that they fail to recognize the sovereignty aspect of countries in joining NATO. One would need to argue that countries like Poland, Romania, etc. joined NATO without support of their population. Similarly at this point the majority of the Ukrainians stand behind their country joining the EU and also NATO. Without addressing this aspect, it is hard to convincingly put such blame on the US.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmPMGuqMNNMY9i4 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-05-27T17:48:23Z
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promoting a coup d'état is kind of opposite to recognizing a country's sovereignty, though. provoking aggression by a third party to attract the victim to your lap is quite an effective tool in the global empire tricks handbook. but yeah, people who haven't been paying attention and who're bombarded by propaganda may fall for that.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmPql5UkKtuoVEG by jschwart@mas.to
2023-05-27T18:48:16Z
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@lxo whether the US role has been a good one or not is definitely debatable. Whether a coup d'était was promoted is different from whether one took place. That the elections since 2014 ended up being fair is not based on propaganda, but on evidence. While I can agree that the US did not do optimal diplomacy, there are other arguments that are more convincing that ended up triggering the war than the US provoking it.A book I can recommend is Marusya (Maroussia) by Marko Vovchok.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmQQYwNO0gxZ62K by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-05-27T23:32:58Z
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I've read a lot about how fair elections get denounced as unfair by US-mandated observers, and vice-versa. I've lived through obviously stolen elections that were claimed to be fair, and through AFAICT fair elections that were claimed to be stolen. it takes more than propaganda disguised as evidence for me to believe this sort of claim.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmR8AKGGSsBxv04 by jschwart@mas.to
2023-05-28T07:05:08Z
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@lxo that makes sense. In that case I hope you will get opportunities to travel to Ukraine and/or meet with Ukrainians. Maybe somebody from Ukraine could reply too. Of course if there turns out to be evidence showing unfairness of Ukrainian elections that would be good to share.I hope you find time to read the book. It is written by a Russian writer who moved to Ukraine. The essence is that Ukrainians simply want the freedom to be themselves in between Russia and Poland.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmRiK9pBigKsnMO by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-05-28T12:50:58Z
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that essence is obvious enough to me that I don't feel compelled to seek the book out, though I'd be interested in having a look if I happen to run into a copy.now, does it seem to you that choosing masters, whether US/NATO or Russia, and being used as pawn and territory in a proxy war amounts to getting the freedom to be themselves? various peoples have just been swindled out of their autonomy.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmSMNktEMgZcmnY by jschwart@mas.to
2023-05-28T15:08:57Z
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@lxo here is a copy of the book:https://archive.org/details/MaroussiaAMaidOfUkraine(Its from 1890, now public domain.)Throughout history Ukraine often ended up in situations where they had to choose one side over another side.They have a lot of (classic) literature that relates to freedom. There were few moments in history they really had autonomy. Given the history of Ukraine "have just been" is sadly not accurate and the US/NATO are offering more outlook towards freedom and autonomy than any party prior.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmT05NGzQfiCUgS by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-05-29T03:52:08Z
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thanks for the link. this is older than the stories I heard about how the Russians mistreated grandma's family in Ukraine after the revolution.I don't buy the notion that US/NATO is offering anything good. it went to great lengths to drive both Ukraine and Russia to a fight that's good for neither, without any regard for the amount of suffering that this ploy would bring onto the Ukrainian people. it was solid if Machiavelian strategy: it weakened Europe's ties to Russia, isolated Russia from the West, reinforced and exploited Russophobia in several Eastern- and Northern-European countries to bring them onto NATO's laps for subservience to US's interests, and got the US people to pay for the war machine to keep running, offering weaponry and ammo to Ukraine, while Ukraine, after being forced out of neutrality in a treaty that neither Ukraine nor NATO had any intent to comply with, gets bombed to death and broken into pieces. and yet Ukraine is now relying on that who plotted its own destruction because it offers more outlook towards freedom? mafias have treated its "protected" victims no worse than that.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmTbJ8slQX9cDhY by jschwart@mas.to
2023-05-29T08:46:47Z
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@lxo Regarding Russophobia, the pattern is older than any US involvement. The US/NATO are the first arming the Ukrainian army themselves. Formally the Budapest Memorandum binds the US and UK to supporting Ukraine.We have to see how the future will be and do our best to support Ukraine and similar places. It is true that we should be cautious regarding the US intentions. Russia's own actions and history sadly made it a far worse option prior to any involvement from US/NATO.
(DIR) Post #AWEcmUCAvoFqNUrfAO by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-06-01T01:14:00Z
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it's not like US, UK or even Ukraine care much about what binds them, is it? they've entered agreements without any intent to fulfill them. respect for human rights is relevant or not depending on whether the alleged offense is committed by opponents or allies.provoking the war, blocking diplomatic moves that could have prevented and then put and end to it, and arming Ukraine so that the war lasts longer and the destruction is more thorough... none of these have been moves that helped Ukraine, I'm sorry to say. Ukraine people are being killed and the country being torn apart as consequence of US's power playsUS's own actions and history of meddling with and promoting very ugly dictatorships in its LatAm playground don't make it look any better than Russia, really, except perhaps for those who don't know that history, or wish to pretend being under the rule of their own empire makes it better than being under the rule of others' empires