Post AW8S0hS6eDPODUDi88 by obfusk@tech.lgbt
(DIR) More posts by obfusk@tech.lgbt
(DIR) Post #AW8S0fNmLKl5nUBE6i by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T05:02:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
In order to ensure people who contribute to and use my game engine don't promote transphobia, I've added a Code of Conduct and modified it (as per the highlighted text). Is there anything you think I should add/modify?
(DIR) Post #AW8S0gEbAx0eRItPRA by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T12:24:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexisFirst of all: I agree with those additions 100%.Unfortunately, applying the CoC to users and distributors probably means that your game engine is no longer FOSS. Which means it is ineligible for inclusion in F-Droid. I hate that it works like that. And I wish I had an alternative.Sadly, I don't think those terms would be enforceable in practice. I'm honestly not sure what it means to apply a CoC to users and distributors. Is the pledge legally required? What does a permanent ban even mean outside of community spaces? I don't know and IANAL.I also think using software licensing to enforce people to behave ethically is a noble goal but not a practical solution. But I also don't have an alternative. I really really wish I did.I'm not going to ask — or even suggest — you change anything. I just wanted to let you know that we will not be able to include your app if its licensing is not FOSS.I wish I could make an exception for these specific additional terms. But that's not in my power to grant.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0gu4gkBcVwIX5M by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T14:37:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk Most likely it'll just be that one cannot use the software if they break the CoC. I've not been able to find anything about it losing FOSS status, but I'll have to ask a lawyer about this so I can make sure everything is in good shape. I'll definitely have to keep you updated
(DIR) Post #AW8S0hS6eDPODUDi88 by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T14:48:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis Again IANAL (so by all means consult one) but the open source criteria generally forbid any kind of "Discrimination Against Persons or Groups" or "Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor".Which in general is a good thing. But unfortunately covers transphobes and misogynists as well as I understand it.So I expect it would be rejected on those grounds if "one cannot use the software if they break the CoC".I would of course love to be proven wrong here.See e.g. https://opensource.org/osd/
(DIR) Post #AW8S0hz4fdmPrje2W8 by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T14:54:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis F-Droid has had to remove apps in the past if they added additional restrictions in a EULA or ToS that made them non-FOSS.See also https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroid-website/-/merge_requests/934
(DIR) Post #AW8S0igg3Wes2y2rTs by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T21:42:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk So, I gave it some thought. I'm going to talk to a contract writing person who specializes in this to help me draft a code of conduct. To help provide what I want to see in the document, I'm going to make a new draft based on this w3c code of conduct. I'll modify it to explicitly ban genocidal rhetoric and speech promoting the stripping of rights. I'll then hand it to the contract writer. 1/2
(DIR) Post #AW8S0jNZU2yAC077L6 by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T21:44:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk I'll also mention the concerns you brought up to me so we can see if this is something we can work out or if I'll just have to not put my engine on FDroid.As I plan on reusing this code of conduct for everything, including my Mastodon server, I'll want to make sure I get it absolutely right. If you want to be involved, let me know. I'm going to look for someone who takes my Legal Insurance from MetLife legal. I'll start this process on Tuesday once the offices are open2/2
(DIR) Post #AW8S0k32zq98GdWEzI by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T22:16:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis In the end I think it's pretty simple (but IANAL or an expert on licensing).> To determine which licenses are FLOSS, We defer to widely trusted organizations that have a proven track record. Specifically, we acknowledge these standards: DFSG, FSF, GNU, and OSI.And those organisations all say that if the license restricts how the software can be used or by whom, it's not FOSS.I'm glad a license than bans LGBT+ people from using it is thus not considered FOSS. But unfortunately the same is true for transphobes etc. I would love to ban the latter from using my software, but I can't do that if I want it to be FOSS. And if it's not, F-Droid, Debian, etc. will not include it.So you have to choose which is more important: to prevent transphobes etc. from using the software (to do harm), or to have the benefit of it being included in F-Droid or Debian etc.For my projects, the choice so far has been the latter. But that may very well end up changing at some point, e.g. if I actually see it abused.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0klML5akU4Fd3Y by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T22:26:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk makes sense. I do not value my decision lightly. Given how much genocidal rhetoric and hate speech has ramped up recently, including the reversal of protections against people I care about, I'm leaning towards providing a place guaranteed to be safe for all marginalized communities. I haven't made my final decision yet, as I'm going to discuss this with a lawyer, but I'm leaning more towards pulling my engine from FDroid.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0lK6FvNgDoVNCq by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T22:23:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis In the case of F-Droid, you could consider publishing it in a repository of your own instead of the main f-droid.org repo. I used such a repo myself to make my app available before it was added to the main repo and still use it to provide beta versions. It's not much work to set up. The downside is that it won't be available by default, so it will be harder to find. But you can then use any terms you want.Another downside is that people might be reluctant to trust your repository. You could try to make your app build reproducibly so that anyone can verify that your binaries match the source code, something I've worked on extensively for F-Droid.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0lLWAeW0IDAVPs by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T22:27:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk I'll let you know the final decision, but for now, I'm considering the project to be pulled from FDroid.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0luy2qs649kofg by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T22:34:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis Sadly, that seems to be the only way to achieve your goals here. I wish I could provide an alternative. But I completely understand.I don't mind being involved in your new CoC, but I'm not sure what you think I can help with beyond what we've already discussed.Just to be clear (in case I wasn't): the CoC itself is not the issue. I might even copy yours at some point. Applying it to users and distributors to e.g. prevent transphobes from using the software is what makes it non-FOSS. At least that would be my interpretation.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0mcZQjkYFO9ddQ by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T22:59:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk Ah, I see. This is definitely something I'll need help with writing as I'm trying to prevent unacceptable behavior from occurring in relation to the software (e.g. the unsuitable for advertisers approach). I'm not trying to do an outright ban on people who just happen to be transphobic. Only preventing abuse by malicious parties. You've definitely brought up great points that will help make the document better.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0nFZ5kwSCKOmPo by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-28T22:55:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis I am still unsure what to do about licencing — dealing with e.g. transphobic end users — for my own projects, but I absolutely agree that it is extremely important to create safe communities. I just wrote about that today: https://tech.lgbt/@obfusk/110448080949414468
(DIR) Post #AW8S0nN0e4teZPsj1E by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-29T03:30:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis> The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons.Simply banning transphobes as a group would definitely not be allowed under that. Though again, that requirement also prevents a license that bans LGBT+ people from using the software from being FOSS, which is good.> The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.Unfortunately, as I understand it that would include preventing abuse by malicious parties. Which sucks. But again I am glad it also means that e.g. a license that says you can't use the software to teach children about LGBT+ is not FOSS either.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0o0MHmN8XSI9Ls by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-28T23:00:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk I also need to make an exception for simulated issues such as making a game teaching about fascism to be allowed, but prohibiting promoting real fascism
(DIR) Post #AW8S0oKv3KopZDuZOq by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-29T03:47:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk That sucks. Maybe if @osi decided to change the rules in the future then I could later revisit the idea of making FOSS software, but in the meantime, I'll just have to stick with relaxed copyleft licenses, but enforce protecting marginalized communities.I'll definitely take a look into hosting my own FDroid repo as per your suggestion and I'll definitely get help writing up a decent code of conduct once the offices are open again
(DIR) Post #AW8S0oteyAblIyAJY8 by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-29T03:44:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis There have been varying attempts to make ethical software licences — with terms to prevent abuse by malicious parties — over the years, an effort which I obviously applaud. But AFAIK all of them have been found to be non-FOSS as a result (and whilst unhappy about it I do agree with that conclusion). But again, I'm not an actual expert on any of this.
(DIR) Post #AW8S0oycfiZtYMUHHk by osi@social.opensource.org
2023-05-29T04:00:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis @obfusk You have noble intentions but a copyright license may not bring you the justice you seek. You may want to look at other approaches, like what's suggested in this thread https://social.coop/@luis_in_brief/110447261732197281
(DIR) Post #AW8S0pauNNCdT6Oqxc by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-29T03:54:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@obfusk @osi I've gone ahead and closed my merge request now that I've been reminded to and am at my computer.
(DIR) Post #AW8TBANW3YOmmLczGC by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-29T04:14:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@osi @obfusk I guess I should ask, is this specifically only for the license itself, or does this include the code of conduct that I also have put in my repo? Also, if a code of conduct can be allowed at all and keep a project FOSS, where can it be enforced?These are question's I'm going to get multiple opinions on including on Tuesday, so I can make the most well-informed decision I can make.
(DIR) Post #AW8YoRYwbBYv8iWO2a by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-29T04:15:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@osi @obfusk For example, my license itself an an entirely unmodified zlib license, but I do have a slightly modified code of conduct that is currently generated from Github's code of conduct generator. I modified it to add additional protections against transphobia as well as enforce the use on those hosting the software and using the software. I suspect the latter change is what's at issue here, so I'm making sure I know exactly what I can and can't do
(DIR) Post #AW8YoSGXz4RNJwvD0K by obfusk@tech.lgbt
2023-05-29T04:29:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis @osi Again, not an expert so I sure don't mind if one weighs in :)But as I understand it, "enforc[ing] the use [of the CoC] on those hosting the software and using the software" is indeed the issue.The terms under which the software is distributed must comply with e.g. OSI criteria. That obviously means the license, but AFAIK also any additional terms, which you have added by making the CoC apply to users and distributors as well.
(DIR) Post #AW8YoSsTi2mXDafV7w by osi@social.opensource.org
2023-05-29T05:17:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexis you need a legal opinion and we can't give you one.Our suggestion was for @obfusk and it's about policies for her community.
(DIR) Post #AW8bNN49Vc0REltw7k by alexis@alexisart.me
2023-05-29T05:45:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@osi @obfusk Ah makes sense. Thanks