Post AW5PRmX0zMsES2rHgO by cazabon@mindly.social
(DIR) More posts by cazabon@mindly.social
(DIR) Post #AW5NFoy9tpcyd2ivc8 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:23:47Z
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*** Mastodon and Kafka ***So now I'm being told that a few people on a instance with 1000s of users who complain that you don't use CW or alt-text the way they want can result in your being blocked for the entire instance, even when you've never received any notification of this. Sort of like how you'd get arrested in fascist countries and never told why. Kafka would recognize this for sure.I would assert that this makes #Mastodon even more of a toy than I thought it was, and utterly unreliable for much beyond trading photos of kitties. Leela the Siamese Snowshoe approves of kitty photos of course, but beyond that anyone depending on #Mastodon might charitably be called "misguided" at best, if my understanding of the situation is correct.And I feel that the public needs to understand that they're buying into this sort of nonsense if they're looking at #Mastodon as an alternative to Elon's #Twitter hellscape.Now I'll probably get blocked for this post. -L
(DIR) Post #AW5Np2GOSqJXzl2oc4 by SETIEric@qoto.org
2023-05-27T16:30:09Z
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@lauren Any instance can block any other instance for any reason, or no reason. Any user can block any instance for any reason. But there is no global blocking of instances or users.
(DIR) Post #AW5NtTEo7FRgoTPvou by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:30:59Z
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@SETIEric Understood. But blocking by a large instance -- particularly when you are not informed about it -- has vastly greater implications all around.
(DIR) Post #AW5O8zcU0FzHaTtQHY by steely_glint@chaos.social
2023-05-27T16:33:44Z
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@lauren I'm not sure I see that is technically different from email, which is capriciously dropped with no notification on the basis of a missing header or the past misuse of your ip address. What is different is that there are actual humans in the loop making value judgements on behalf of their communities.No public federated network is ever going to be 'reliable'.
(DIR) Post #AW5OMYGwTdSqpDHay0 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:36:14Z
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@steely_glint Well, that's a key point -- the push for federation means a whole new set of failure possibilities, and I don't think most people moving to them have any clue about this. I disagree with your email analogy, but it's too long and technical to try discuss here right now I think.
(DIR) Post #AW5OYVs7EAUMr5NFHk by kkeller@curling.social
2023-05-27T16:38:16Z
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@lauren I'd still rather get silently instance blocked than be barraged by rampant misinformation and hate posts, and perhaps there's a chance that the Mastodon devs may address this issue. We *know* there's no chance Twitter will address its many shortcomings, because Musk doesn't believe they're shortcomings at all.
(DIR) Post #AW5OgNpqzUdmFO4KVk by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-05-27T16:39:38Z
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@lauren The culture here is weird and unpredictable in ways I still can't wrap my head around. I was reported, and blocked from a mid-sized instance, for being a "white supremacist" because I posted a thread about ways the DM mechanism here is broken and has non-intuitive semantics, and then reported (but not instance blocked, apparently) because I refused to edit my year-old blog post on Faraday cages to suit a stranger's preferences.The Karens sometimes have a lot of power here.
(DIR) Post #AW5Oiij8HsQ9cX2VfM by richardgrant@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T16:39:58Z
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@lauren I hope these idiots don't succeed in driving you away! Meanwhile on Bluesky, someone coined the term "mastodonization" to characterize this sort of thing.
(DIR) Post #AW5OkSTxeiSNoklv0q by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:40:32Z
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@kkeller The first step would be a reliable notification protocol for such actions. If you don't know about it, you can't appeal. Obviously there are egregious cases where this is not practical. But in my case, I'm told I should have been notified and I never was.
(DIR) Post #AW5P8atu0Y6WsQPl8y by cazabon@mindly.social
2023-05-27T16:44:51Z
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@lauren I would hope that this would shake out naturally. The over-sensitive block off any instance that isn't run to their tightly-wound standards. Users of those instances who want a more open experience sign up with, or move to, other instances...The problem, of course, is the people who are on, or who sign up with, the uptight instances and don't know there's anything different out there.#fediverse #uptight #sensitive
(DIR) Post #AW5PDaINgYHsRpFAhM by steely_glint@chaos.social
2023-05-27T16:45:47Z
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@laurenIt isn't clear that this is a 'failure' - it could be the system working as intended. - Take an instance for the partially sighted, it is obvious legitimate to drop traffic that doesn't add descriptive text.
(DIR) Post #AW5PGkHmzuH2IkTSzI by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:46:23Z
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@cazabon Exactly.
(DIR) Post #AW5PIPT1N9SWJPWOIK by pontulo@mindly.social
2023-05-27T16:46:35Z
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@lauren Chekhov's fediblock
(DIR) Post #AW5PRmX0zMsES2rHgO by cazabon@mindly.social
2023-05-27T16:48:23Z
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@lauren Maybe the "How to sign up" instance directories could list the censorship-focused instances separately, or not at all.Not a perfect solution by any means.#FediTips
(DIR) Post #AW5Pa4hlIwsd8Dq7nM by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:49:50Z
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@cazabon Even defining "censorship-focused" would be challenging in this context.
(DIR) Post #AW5PxPaLpzjaYGV8dc by jeber@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T16:54:05Z
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@lauren They could simply make CWs and alt-text mandatory. No post without them. It seems like that would eliminate this particular irritation that some experience.
(DIR) Post #AW5Q3jijt7MajnRN8S by SETIEric@qoto.org
2023-05-27T16:55:13Z
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@lauren Which large instance does this? Do any of them?
(DIR) Post #AW5Q70DD1tlGknFYfo by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:55:49Z
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@jeber Then you'd have arguments about whether or not the CWs/alt-txts were "accurate" or "appropriate" or "complete". There's no bottom.
(DIR) Post #AW5QFECSuGCQSApAJs by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T16:57:19Z
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@SETIEric I certainly got blocked without receiving any notification. Thanks to this discussion this morning I finally learned about this and reportedly I'm now unblocked. But it could easily have gone on indefinitely.
(DIR) Post #AW5QktwPlQKot8Q4yO by jeber@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T17:02:59Z
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@lauren On another site we have this same discussion about hashtags. But beyond people reminding others to use them, no one’s resorted to banning or reporting. It seems Mastodon might reflect society in general more than we’d like. Cyber-Karens?
(DIR) Post #AW5RUUxuxII6kRrhIm by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-05-27T17:11:01.609751Z
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There are people here trying to cling onto power and they will fail
(DIR) Post #AW5SiCklZ2rcGxoTUe by cenobyte@mastodon.thirring.org
2023-05-27T17:24:54Z
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@lauren @jeber Not only that but the mandatory cow and tag only applies to people on that server. Not fediverse wide. Sounds like they’ll try to impose it though.
(DIR) Post #AW5THqj4wEeoNi1Kgi by FaithinBones@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T17:31:22Z
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@lauren you won’t be blocked by anyone but the person who is complaining. I don’t always remember to use alt-text and I haven’t been blocked by Mastodon. If someone blocked me because I didn’t use it then that’s up to them. I don’t worry about it
(DIR) Post #AW5VTr6hXzhSwjvGAC by farbel@mas.to
2023-05-27T17:55:53Z
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@lauren If I were one of the other people on that instance, I would move. This is the kind of thing that can work itself out. People who want insular restricted experiences on Mastodon can have that. Nobody needs to join their instances. And anyone who doesn't want to obey their silly rules still has the rest of the Fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AW5cfIjDtL3HTdLTuK by stonebear@hachyderm.io
2023-05-27T19:16:23Z
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@lauren Yes, yes you will.
(DIR) Post #AW5d1azIgV4YThUppw by ravenonthill@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T19:20:29Z
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@lauren remember like removing books from Florida libraries.
(DIR) Post #AW5fNiFUZHivHFkBHM by ruthan@triangletoot.party
2023-05-27T19:46:47Z
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@lauren i gotta say, "an instance choosing not to publish my content is comparable to having my bodily autonomy taken away" is a pretty wild leap.
(DIR) Post #AW5famOMTY6dtK7hYm by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T19:49:18Z
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@ruthan For a larger instance, it's sort of like when one person complains and the school district bans a book in Florida -- and then doesn't tell anyone they did it so nobody can appeal.
(DIR) Post #AW5h5glZXdADNJHZQW by peltast@mstdn.ca
2023-05-27T20:06:03Z
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@lauren You're always going to have local administration making decisions that you occasionally disagree with. For instance Facebook blocked all climate pages five years ago - you can still make one, but it won't reach anyone. The difference is that a decision that affects 1000 people is a lot different than one that affects millions, and one is a lot more appealable than the other.
(DIR) Post #AW5hWxxliEgMWozghs by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T20:10:58Z
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@peltast It's only appealable if you *know* about it.
(DIR) Post #AW5ksRybcMupYcJzyy by vorlon@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T20:48:27Z
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@lauren I mean, yes? You can? It entirely depends on the policies and practices of the administrators of the particular instance, for which there are no universal standards. That's what federated means. How does that make it any more of a toy than Twitter where you can be arbitrarily shadow banned across the whole service?What you describe is an instance with shitty federation policies. If this is based on a real occurance it's appropriate to point that out to the community. 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #AW5licJKRN4ufOtDH6 by suntour@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T20:57:53Z
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@lauren I'll probably get reported for that photo of the bacon cheeseburgers because it lacks a CW.I've made the mistake of scrolling the local and federated timelines, encountering what is truly a lot of weird shit there that demands content warnings and doesn't have any.
(DIR) Post #AW5oGHHXKcmLCWEJ5k by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T21:26:25Z
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@vorlon Well it happened to me, and I only found out about it by chance today. The block apparently dates to February. I'm told that is was removed today thanks to queries today.
(DIR) Post #AW5oMGbujyWKr9cJrU by FinchHaven@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-05-27T21:27:29Z
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@lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org Going to jump in and point out that your entire house of cards is balanced on this:"can result in your being blocked""can result"CanMightMay beNot absoluteYour entire diatribe is founded in a hypothetical which you make no attempt to prove, or even try to support beyond one gratuitous shotFeet of clayLot of that laziness going on in these #Mastodon #Doomtakes
(DIR) Post #AW5psCTRkuGZFQRnEm by vorlon@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T21:44:28Z
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@lauren will you name the instance? Users (and prospective users) have a right to know what's going on, even if this particular case is now resolved
(DIR) Post #AW5pxjOgm7GUnzrKwS by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T21:45:34Z
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@vorlon It's all in the thread. As far as I'm concerned this specific case is closed for now.
(DIR) Post #AW5yWLsd0Cd5dYslzk by raven667@hachyderm.io
2023-05-27T23:21:20Z
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@lauren @spaf I don't really see this as a problem, each instance is going to have their own community standards and will either fully, partially or not at all federate with other instances. It is more like blogs where commenters form independent communities, with federation, than a single community, so move to an instance that has the community you want. If some person or instance blocks you, or you them, then you never have to think about them again 😉
(DIR) Post #AW5yp8VsvLexgOCYmu by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T23:24:45Z
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@raven667 @spaf The problem is that especially on larger instances, many people may join having no clue that the admin may arbitrarily block users at remote instances or entire instances without any notification either to the users locally or to the remote user/instance. The users on the local instance just assume the person they're following is now silent and just stopped posting. This double-secret stuff is amateur hour unless major abuse is in the picture in specific cases. Nobody can depend on Mastodon comms on such a basis.
(DIR) Post #AW60ErdkNehupoi8fI by raven667@hachyderm.io
2023-05-27T23:40:36Z
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@lauren @cazabon it would be very democratic to list the ToS for each instance when you pick them, in a standard way, but people wouldn't read them
(DIR) Post #AW60aL8FvOy6NsDnVY by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-27T23:44:35Z
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@raven667 @cazabon Right.
(DIR) Post #AW62FSrgBCuaC3dqNc by raven667@hachyderm.io
2023-05-28T00:03:06Z
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@lauren it would be helpful if the client was clear if you are following someone and your instance has blocked them, if it doesn't do that already idk, so instance members can provide feedback to their admin on their moderation decisions and users on that instance can decide for themselves and vote with their feet if they don't agree.
(DIR) Post #AW63i6y2lxJAdFqHYG by mathew@universeodon.com
2023-05-28T00:19:30Z
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@lauren Wow. I noticed some time ago I wasn't seeing your posts any more, but didn't have any idea why.I got an account muted on another instance and got a notification when I signed in, so maybe there's some sort of bug in the software that it didn't warn you?
(DIR) Post #AW63qIxE5cV07pMno0 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T00:21:00Z
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@mathew Like I said on the posts today, I never got any notifications. Nada. Thanks for implicitly confirming that the block is gone!
(DIR) Post #AW64plLP9Pftq7yuS8 by raven667@hachyderm.io
2023-05-28T00:13:42Z
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@lauren @raven667 I expect every instance to be run by it's own petty tyrant, and the trick is to find one you are compatible with. I guess I would not expect reliable comms outside your own instance or a limited set of others that have mostly compatible policies. Instance owners don't really have to listen to anyone, they have their own incentives for running an instance, and some are just not going to be aligned with yours.
(DIR) Post #AW64pm4mQhyG6rD9BA by raven667@hachyderm.io
2023-05-28T00:27:56Z
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@lauren @raven667 maybe to think about it another way, if you are exposed to enough people on the internet, you are going to be a villain to someone you've never met, for reasons you may not even understand, and while this will be important to them for you it'll be Tuesday. It does suck if people are stuck in a community with a tyrant that they don't agree with and don't have the visibility to know
(DIR) Post #AW64pmhm5jAA3nSHxY by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T00:32:06Z
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@raven667 For example, the software could send a notification to anyone on the instance currently following someone when the admin decides to block that someone or their remote instance system-wide. Then the notified party could decide if they wanted to stick around.
(DIR) Post #AW64vRVrnPCC4VaEd6 by raven667@hachyderm.io
2023-05-28T00:33:04Z
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@lauren yeah, agreed 👍. Give people the knowledge to make their own decision
(DIR) Post #AW66vgdfl3QYtNTjk0 by jab01701mid@universeodon.com
2023-05-28T00:55:35Z
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@lauren So FWIW, at least there are several #Mastondon servers for people to choose from. Some people have spun up their own.Also, this reminds me of the issue of college course lecture videos being unavailable because no captions, so if not good for all, must be banned for everyone.This is a familiar pattern, and it has to do with people, not technology or platforms.But those who run the platforms, and participate in them, can help make it better. Or not.
(DIR) Post #AW673pcOFzSp3dlLM0 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T00:57:04Z
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@jab01701mid Again, if users are not *notified* about what blocks are in place, they cannot accurately decide what to do.
(DIR) Post #AW67sGSEkqLolg3tAG by darren@c.im
2023-05-28T01:06:01Z
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@lauren I think the only way forward is to ngaf about blocks. Instances that go too far will go too far too often and will lose users.Some users will flock to (and need) highly curated and protected servers.I accept that on a good day, I will ever see about 30% of the #fediverse. It's not perfect, harms some users, protects some users, aggravates lots of users, but still better than #Twitter.I'm more supportive of account level blocks than server blocks in all but the most obvious cases. It's dumb to block a server with a few bad actors that may also be home to hundreds of allies.
(DIR) Post #AW67yuvZBocC1wx852 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T01:07:24Z
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@darren If you don't even know that someone you follow has been blocked by your instance, you don't have the information to even make a reasonable analysis of what is going on.
(DIR) Post #AW68Hmq1URNGRZMDsO by h2lift@twit.social
2023-05-28T01:10:44Z
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@lauren Sort of like Reddit, where you get banned for not following some obscure rule that is different on every instance.Simple power trips by people who think they know better than you.I've only been banned from 3 different sub/reddits and no longer bother.It's like highschool with a bad attitude.Try to ignore the screaming babies.
(DIR) Post #AW6A3LH9MylEoYHn7o by TheActualBrian@mastodon.social
2023-05-28T01:30:32Z
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@lauren This is why the fact that it's a "protocol" and not one company or app doesn't mean a damn thing.Just get on the main server, know that it's THAT server that's important and not the protocol it's using, and if some, random instance wants to block the main server, let them, it's their loss.
(DIR) Post #AW6B4met97fXz6dmfA by darren@c.im
2023-05-28T01:41:55Z
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@laurenThat's true. But even centralized platforms have this problem. I chose my server in part because of their reluctance to ban. I like to keep a few enemies close. I accept that I'm blocked some places by virtue of that choice. But if 12,000 servers show your posts whike 1,000 do not, that's still pretty decent reach. It'll never be 100% on #fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AW6BH8UPnwR3ARdEga by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T01:44:10Z
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@darren By and large (e.g., Twitter) most blocks are made by individuals rather than by the admin. Even more so under Musk. But that's irrelevant. Mastodon should be better than Twitter.
(DIR) Post #AW6DjIjrUYJCyHPmWu by darren@c.im
2023-05-28T02:11:42Z
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@lauren yeah, that's probably true here, too, by and large.I'm speaking from privilege and a propensity toward openness, but I respect the decisions of those who have homogeneous communities to protect. I'm less a target than most. I think, by design, the #fediverse will never be 100% visible and that's ok. Yes, there will be moderation abuse, but mostly it will work.
(DIR) Post #AW6E8CdBKyNpGgAFTk by hughster@mastodon.social
2023-05-28T02:16:15Z
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@lauren Pay no attention to the CW harassers. Block them all. Mute "content warning" and all similar terms. Nothing bad will happen.
(DIR) Post #AW7NanxhEFwXtxQuSO by ruthan@triangletoot.party
2023-05-28T15:36:58Z
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@lauren I can see the argument that silent blocking is a hazard for folks on the blocking server, not so much that it's an infringement on the liberty of the blocked person. I'm not sure whether you were trying to get at one of these more than the other?
(DIR) Post #AW7Nj3G8EnJjf6zLdY by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T15:38:31Z
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@ruthan Well, it's clearly unfair to the party on the blocking server who followed someone and isn't informed that they've been blocked by their server. And I would argue that except in egregious cases of abuse, not informing the blocked party (especially when it's done by the admin of another site) prevents any form of appeal.
(DIR) Post #AW7OVKqo8U2i7aAOps by ruthan@triangletoot.party
2023-05-28T15:47:11Z
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@lauren Yeah, I feel like unilateral blocking needs to be available as an option but the option should only be used in very specific types of cases. It's a hard joint to carve.Re the first case, I'm not sure that a federated platform is more prone to this than a monolithic one?
(DIR) Post #AW7OurCoyfeFhydJmi by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T15:51:51Z
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@ruthan It's largely irrelevant how the others work (though in practice, they tend to have more carefully thought out processes and procedures) -- I assume Mastodon wants to be better than them.