Post AW5NEA50RMu7WS8RUG by kendraserra@dair-community.social
(DIR) More posts by kendraserra@dair-community.social
(DIR) Post #AW5NDXOUH0JXXZwwwC by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T14:52:10Z
0 likes, 4 repeats
Are you just catching up on the bonkers story about the lawyer using ChatGPT for federal court filings? This is a thread for you.
(DIR) Post #AW5NDZL12sj3ZOLCnw by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T14:56:13Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Our dramatis personae - some lawyers in federal court, in a lawsuit over a personal injury on an airplane. Bartholomew Banino (BB) represents the airline. Peter LoDuca (PL) and Steven Schwartz (SS) represent the injured person. Here's the docket (via @questauthority) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/mata-v-avianca-inc/?filed_after=&filed_before=&entry_gte=&entry_lte=&order_by=asc
(DIR) Post #AW5NDbfeN8Q4ny0iFE by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T14:59:18Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
The case is in federal court, and they're arguing over whether it should be there or in state court. The airline has filed its motion to dismiss on Jan. 13. On Jan. 18, the plaintiff asks for more time to reply (#19). The judge gives it to them. (#20).
(DIR) Post #AW5NDf2RqpRFFXhShE by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:01:38Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
On March 1st, PL files that reply/opposition to the motion to dismiss. It cites a bunch of cases in support of its argument! They seem quite convincing - there's some state courts holding that state courts can decide international airline accidents. (See pages 4 and 5). https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368.21.0.pdf
(DIR) Post #AW5NDgp3DbuUmZRn5k by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:03:45Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
The defendants file their response. In it, there's a footnote where they flag that they can't find the cases that PL cited to, or they don't say what PL said they said. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/24/mata-v-avianca-inc/
(DIR) Post #AW5NDinLstjutsfSim by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:05:48Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
On April 11, the court orders PL to produce copies of the cases. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/25/mata-v-avianca-inc/ Likewise, on April 12, the judge asks for another case. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/27/mata-v-avianca-inc/(This is not necessarily so unusual - some judges have local rules requiring litigants to attach unpublished cases to filings to save the court from having to go find them.)
(DIR) Post #AW5NDkoUNdpz9zDOls by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:06:47Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
PL asks for an extension. He's on vacation. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/26/mata-v-avianca-inc/Now...this seems a little odd to me. People should be able to take breaks, but really, you need more than a week to produce a copy of cases and an affidavit?
(DIR) Post #AW5NDmbnhmsOjDIIGu by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:08:58Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
The judge gives PL more time (and apparently rope to hang himself). We're now up to April and docket number 28.
(DIR) Post #AW5NDoU4jTswXph9VY by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:13:27Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
On April 25, PL files a response. It's amazing. First, he says, he's attached the copies of the cases that he previously cited. (We'll come back to that.) Second, that he couldn't find one of the cases that was cited by the court in one of those opinions. Third, that the opinions are excerpts - that the attachments "may not be inclusive of the entire opinions but only what is made available by online database."It's notarized by Stephen Schwartz. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/29/mata-v-avianca-inc/
(DIR) Post #AW5NDqEuCqwHzMc48m by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:18:20Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
PL then attaches the "opinions." Let's take one of them: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368.29.1.pdfFirst of all, this doesn't really look like a court opinion, formatting wise. There's no date.
(DIR) Post #AW5NDs67IV65kgW4ie by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:19:15Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
And it's supposedly an 11th Circuit opinion. On page 2, it says "Before Jordan, Rosenbaum, and Higginbotham, *Circuit Judges." One issue. Higginbotham isn't an 11th Circuit judge. There is a Patrick Higginbotham who is a federal judge. He served on the 5th Circuit, and took senior status before either of the two other judges (who are real) took office. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Higginbotham
(DIR) Post #AW5NDtzoEvExdha4AK by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:20:43Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Now, weird stuff happens in the federal courts, so it's not totally out of the question that someone might sit by designation or something else funky is happening. But still, that's very strange!(Call back to when I went on @alex and @emilymbender's Mystery AI Hype Theater and talked about how the types of errors that generative AI makes are different in kind from the type that humans make.)
(DIR) Post #AW5NDvs5GcFVSJyvOy by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:24:31Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
But also, this case is basically perfect. Like tailor made for the fact pattern of PL's case! Amazing that there's circuit level precedent that lines up with the lawyer's argument so cleanly. The other ones are also pretty weird. There's parts that are in quotes (page 7)? There's a Texas state court referring to an 11th Circuit ruling as if they had made it (page 5)? https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368.29.4.pdf So there's some stuff that should make a lawyer curious, in short.
(DIR) Post #AW5NDxaQtDJmm9jrAO by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:26:05Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
On April 26, the day after the affidavit with he cases is filed, BB, the lawyer for the defendant, files a letter with questions. They literally can't find the cases anywhere else. The docket numbers don't line up. And the federal reporters (sort of like a DOI, for my non-lawyer readers) turn up a different case. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368.30.0.pdf
(DIR) Post #AW5NDzLyJwwIFszKu8 by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:29:08Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
[NB: I did not intend this to be this long but whatever, we're all nerds here.] On May 4th, the shit really hits the fan. The judge issues an order to show cause why he shouldn't issue sanctions on PL for citing cases that don't exist and then swearing that the copies attached on April 25 are real. (Dkt #31)
(DIR) Post #AW5NE19He5yhp74EPA by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:31:11Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
This is one pissed off federal judge. "Six of the submitted cases appear to be bogus judicial decisions with bogus quotes and bogus internal citations."The judge called (or probably had his clerks call) the 11th Circuit and confirmed that the decision wasn't real. He also points out that the internal citations are also to "bogus" cases. The full order is here: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/31/mata-v-avianca-inc/
(DIR) Post #AW5NE30qiQQ5bX8WXI by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:35:59Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
On May 4th, SS admits what happened (which you probably already figured out, even if you missed the header toot). It was ChatGPT. The declaration here is just too amazing not to provide you with it directly. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368.32.1.pdf
(DIR) Post #AW5NE4mO9A2b5GO0H2 by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:39:13Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
It turns out it was SS, not PL, who prepared the filings. PL just filed them, and in his own declaration, pleads ignorance. Editor's note: My dude, you did have reason to doubt the authenticity of the case law. These were weirdass print outs that don't look like real cases and if you had literally plugged any of them into Westlaw or Lexis, you wouldn't have found them. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368/gov.uscourts.nysd.575368.32.0.pdf
(DIR) Post #AW5NE6alPLvkhmxkQq by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:43:04Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
The federal judge...is not mollified. (Nor should he be.) On May 26 (yesterday), he still orders the two lawyers to show cause why they, and their law firm, should not be sanctioned. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63107798/33/mata-v-avianca-inc/I suspect that a significant part of the ire is about the doubling down on the cases in the April 25 filing. If they had come clean then, I feel like the judge might be more lenient.
(DIR) Post #AW5NE8J71x021cigCG by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:46:56Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
Oh, and remember how Steven Schwartz notarized the documents back at the end of April? Judge wants him to show cause as to why that wasn't fraudulent. So first of all, PL basically lied in his affidavit, since SS was the one who produced the cases. Also I'm no NY notary expert, but I bet you're not supposed to change the date on your stamp by hand.
(DIR) Post #AW5NEA50RMu7WS8RUG by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:52:02Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Anyway, hearing is set for June 8th. I suspect popcorn will be a must. Thanks for reading!While you're here, check out the episode of Mystery AI Hype Theatre where I talk about why this is exactly the problem with generative AI hype in law. I think at about 30 minutes we talk about this problem. https://peertube.dair-institute.org/w/o6sb7f7RwapWBJd9VC61t4
(DIR) Post #AW5RfCE8xqDHolYW8m by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-05-27T17:13:08.458396Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
But why would you use ChatGPT for this when there are real case law search engines?
(DIR) Post #AW5lN27LoKTsKmzkqO by AnnemarieBridy@mastodon.lawprofs.org
2023-05-27T16:19:32Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@kendraserra Great thread! Federal judges are generally pretty reluctant to sanction lawyers, but I cannot imagine these guys will not be sanctioned. They should be suspended from practice in whatever jurisdiction(s) they’re admitted in. Just unreal. I expect this one will show up on all the PR syllabi next fall.
(DIR) Post #AW5lOXWkW33Y2UaqqO by luis_in_brief@social.coop
2023-05-27T17:33:30Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@AnnemarieBridy @kendraserra yeah, absolutely going to be the leading case in every ethics CLE outline ASAP.
(DIR) Post #AW71Macbpfm7TxO0nI by emilymbender@dair-community.social
2023-05-27T15:45:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Thank you for this amazing thread @kendraserra ! It's bananas that anyone would think using ChatGPT for legal research was a good idea. But reading your expert analysis of the situation is a treat :)
(DIR) Post #AW71MbPAv6chua6nUe by Seruko@mstdn.social
2023-05-27T16:48:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@emilymbender many smart people are totally credulous when it comes to technology film flam. Things seriously smart people earnestly believe that are absolutely 180 degrees off from the truth: LLMs are AI (in any sense of the word), LLMs think, LLMs make decisions, LLMs can hallucinate, LLMs are new technology which will only improve.Absolute bonkers bullshit. Wishful thinking, learned helplessness, enormous gullibility, with a huge helping of underlying christian eschatology.
(DIR) Post #AW71McGLjP9qZUzGNM by PJ_Evans@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T19:37:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Seruko @emilymbender I keep telling people who claim any kind of learning or intelligence for AIs that they're computer programs, and can't do anything but follow the instructions in the program.
(DIR) Post #AW71Mcu3LmuuYdYyGG by djdesign@mastodon.social
2023-05-27T20:46:17Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@PJ_Evans @Seruko @emilymbender and in this case, they've obfuscated to the user what the program is intended to do.A human "asking a question" of an LLM is doing so with the expectation of an answer (a logical assumption, but wrong). An LLM doesn't treat that input as a question to answer, but as a prompt to generate text. No part of its programming cares whether the generated text correctly answers the question posed.
(DIR) Post #AW71XVgaWYDfMLSFUG by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-28T11:30:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SerukoNo one can be an expert on everything. So we have to rely on pop-sci and folk knowledge for most things (including you).@emilymbender
(DIR) Post #AW71iAK6I3zCI117ho by airtower@queer.af
2023-05-27T17:48:49Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@kendraserra This is not just the problem with "AI" (it's a misnomer) in law, it's the problem with it in about everything. I hear about people being excited about "AI in medicine". Doing what those lawyers did in medicine could easily get people killed. The problem is that things like ChatGPT make it easy to generate a load of plausible sounding nonsense, while showing (or even just noticing) that it is nonsense takes actual work. Automated Gish Gallop, basically.
(DIR) Post #AW720JOxHBKBeqwNxg by diceynes@coolsite.win
2023-05-28T11:35:26.504668Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@PJ_Evans @Seruko @emilymbender People in charge of these types of technologies try to get money for their projects. That's one of the reason they get hyped so much in the media.
(DIR) Post #AW72ckeGQAVVAPQlAO by OldeHippi@mindly.social
2023-05-27T23:13:01Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@kendraserra Stupidity is so popular these days I often wonder if it is a pandemic...