Post AW2FUUlBw8gDBgGTdQ by potatomeow@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by potatomeow@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AW28LY59W7c3ClO8Qa by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-26T02:52:53Z
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When John Mastodon removed server choice from the onboarding process in the official #Mastodon app, he was only kicking the can of user confusion down the road. What happens when Alice asks Bob "what's your Mastodon address", and Bob replies "@Bob_is_here" and Alice asks "OK, but on which server"? Bob may have no idea a choice of servers exists, because he never consciously chose one. How might he feel when he realizes he had a choice, but the simplified onboading took it away from him?#UX
(DIR) Post #AW28jr8SKSgjFPWYIi by edendestroyer@masto.ai
2023-05-26T02:56:40Z
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@strypey the #fediverse is a radically different #internet culture that should not have its intricacies be hidden from the public. People need to learn its fundmanetal nature, this happens with all new social cultures on the internet. Hiding its core nature only centralizes and undermines the fediverse.i hate website boy
(DIR) Post #AW2FUUlBw8gDBgGTdQ by potatomeow@fosstodon.org
2023-05-26T04:12:54Z
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@strypey agreed. most people do not have the concept about server or hosting or multiple frontend clients.it's as simple as: [twitter] <~~> [people talking on the internet]so some user education / social engineering is necessary.
(DIR) Post #AW2YC48M5nlsWX1cUS by spla@mastodont.cat
2023-05-26T07:42:21Z
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@strypey it's not removed, you can choose any server, "Pick another server" button is there.
(DIR) Post #AW2yBPR40OLn6n7iAC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-26T12:33:43Z
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@spla> "Pick another server" button is thereHas it been there the whole time? Or has it been restored due to the backlash? In either case, m.s was made the default, and some server admins were so upset with this they were threatening to defederate m.s. I was just musing on the rationale given (simpler onboarding) and whether it made any sense.
(DIR) Post #AW2yFZ0OMoJZwmd3PU by spla@mastodont.cat
2023-05-26T12:34:24Z
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@strypey yes, it was there the whole time.
(DIR) Post #AW2yYMGHyIFlvS1hQm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-26T12:37:51Z
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@counterinduration> Most people have email accounts.Most people also have letterboxes. That doesn't mean they bring concepts from snail mail into the way they think about every newer communication medium. @potatomeow
(DIR) Post #AW31TmK5wqf9AUJYye by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-26T13:10:39Z
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@counterinduration> People don't need to understand the federation aspect of fediverse in any way that is different to how they understand federation in emailI agree but you've complete missed my point. @potatomeow
(DIR) Post #AW49fHtFus4F34ifwG by hirad@mastodon.hirad.it
2023-05-26T15:46:25Z
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@spla @strypey It used to be pick my own server. They changed it to pick another. It’s still not gonna change much. User who doesn’t know anything, would think for joining #Mastodon, he/she must use the purple button.
(DIR) Post #AW49fNfIRgSyxWEc0u by spla@mastodont.cat
2023-05-26T15:52:21Z
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@hirad many media articles were publishing that is hard for new users to choose what server so this is a thing to help them.@strypey
(DIR) Post #AW49fOTzPD13Ujx61o by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-27T02:17:00Z
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@spla> is hard for new users to choose what server so this is a thing to help themHow does making the choice for them help them make a choice?@hirad
(DIR) Post #AW4CCzthWGL900869w by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-26T02:56:37Z
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@strypey yes, we (the many #FOSS communities) have to embrace the engineering principle of "make it as simple as possible... but *no* simpler" that, for example, all the proprietary corporations have failed to adhere to (which is why we have virulent digital viruses propagated by computer users who've been trained to believe they don't need to learn a damn thing, & any requirement to understand something new is a failure of the vendor who should give them their money back).
(DIR) Post #AW4CD0n0CeZllW0GMC by DrCuriosity@cloudisland.nz
2023-05-26T03:00:15Z
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@lightweight @strypey There is a lot to be said for "as simple as possible, but as complex as necessary".The interfaces I have the most trouble with tend to be those that have been grossly oversimplified, by someone who has made assumptions about a user's needs that don't match up at all with what I'm actually trying to do.
(DIR) Post #AW4CD1eB0x6uQQsjEu by isaacfreeman@cloudisland.nz
2023-05-26T21:50:58Z
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@DrCuriosity @lightweight @strypey I started replying to this, but I think it’s more of a blog post than a reply, and I’d need to set up a blog.TL;Can’t-Read;Not-Actually-Published… I think it’s legit to set someone up quickly on a server so they can see whether Mastodon is for them first. The UI challenge should be to help people find the right server and switch painlessly _after_ they’ve decided to stay.
(DIR) Post #AW4CD1qwFVJp40qv8C by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-26T03:10:39Z
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@strypey this practice, of course, serves big proprietary vendors well, and keeps the market from making informed tech decisions.
(DIR) Post #AW4CD2d9MFspTXPQHI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-27T02:45:32Z
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I'm hesitant to get into this debate again; the last time it turned into a heated hellthread. @isaacfreeman > I think it’s legit to set someone up quickly on a server so they can see whether Mastodon is for them first.Fair enough. So pick one at random from those (formerly?) listed at joinmastodon.org. Or set up onboarding servers, where all accounts are automatically deleted after x weeks. Or... or... or...(1/2)@DrCuriosity @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AW4CD3dBdbVUZwQxyS by isaacfreeman@cloudisland.nz
2023-05-26T21:54:45Z
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@DrCuriosity @lightweight @strypey To that end, I think the problem isn’t starting people on mastodon.social, it’s keeping them there. It should be clearly indicated that it’s a starting server, not where you stay forever.
(DIR) Post #AW4CPg8QJ78zTH3xEO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-27T02:47:53Z
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@isaacfreeman There's loads of servers people could start off in while they evaluate whether Mastodon (and the fediverse in general) are for them. But there's no good reason for m.s to be that server. One of the biggest, with a reputation for patchy moderation, which can only get worse with so many newbies funneled into it. It's even not a representative sample of the fediverse experience.(2/2)@DrCuriosity @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AW4K3QIFKBKVbNYXOi by isaacfreeman@cloudisland.nz
2023-05-27T04:13:29Z
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@strypey @DrCuriosity @lightweight No argument here. Having one large instance dominate others is a failure mode for a federated system.I think it would help a lot if there was a set of designated onboarding instances instead of one big one. That alone would normalise for beginners that having multiple instances isn’t scary.
(DIR) Post #AW4LesMi14d3Kn4APQ by isaacfreeman@cloudisland.nz
2023-05-27T04:20:03Z
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@strypey @DrCuriosity @lightweight The main thing, though, is to minimise the friction involved in moving instances. This would help people migrate out from the onboarding servers easily, and when the barrier is low enough there’ll be some positive social pressure: you’ll be taken more seriously if you graduate from your beginner instance.
(DIR) Post #AW4Let4JOxVVW1SzNA by isaacfreeman@cloudisland.nz
2023-05-27T04:23:18Z
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@strypey @DrCuriosity @lightweight If moving once becomes a normal part of the onboarding process, I think it’ll leave people more comfortable with federation. And later on if there’s moderation drama, they’ll be more confident to vote with their feet and move again rather than bail on Mastodon altogether.I think improving the process of switching instances is at least as important as fine-tuning the initial arrival experience.
(DIR) Post #AW4LetgF7vqfPfDHUm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-27T04:31:20Z
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@isaacfreeman > improving the process of switching instances is at least as important as fine-tuning the initial arrival experienceYes! But the latter is the low-hanging fruit. Focusing on it allows folks to procrasti-work, avoiding the much thornier issues that need to be resolved for full account migration to work.(1/2)@DrCuriosity @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AW4M36HJwImTR264XY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-27T04:35:49Z
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@isaacfreeman Off the top of my head;* full account portability needs to avoid break the server-level moderation model of the 'verse* a way of addressing posts independent of the domain name of the instance it was posted on.* migration needs to be possible between *all* instances, regardless of what software they run, not just Masto>Masto. That requires a) a standardization process and b) John Mastodon to care about consensus-based standards again(2/2)@DrCuriosity @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AW6M2J9kxjGlOz6Jt2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-28T03:45:07Z
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@isaacfreemanAlso relevant to the amount migration discussion:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110416727604092100@DrCuriosity @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AW6cHDfVFOHxzY5AY4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-28T06:47:06Z
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"Some other instance software projects are working on allowing post migrations too..."https://rys.io/en/index.htmlI hope all the other ActivityPub implementations come up with a standard method (ie FEP) of migrating accounts between two instances, including posts etc. If it works with existing Mastodon code, that will give people a way out of Masto. If John Mastodon wants people to migrate in, as well as out, he'll need to support the standard.(1/2)@isaacfreeman@DrCuriosity @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AW6cpfvegKNnUC4EHA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-28T06:53:20Z
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@isaacfreemanIf he didn't support the account migration standard, most likely more people would leave Mastodon instances than migrate to them. If he did, it would still be no harder to move an account from Mastodon to an instance running different software. Either way, the dominance of Mastodon development over fediverse evolution would be greatly reduced. Without having to rely on John Mastodon to do the right thing.(2/2)@DrCuriosity @lightweight