Post AVTStRb1SVMHEnh1FY by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
(DIR) More posts by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
(DIR) Post #AVTRpgFQwSbhZDEi4O by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T07:16:36Z
1 likes, 3 repeats
Shout out to RHEL for doing what no other distro has the balls to do and finally mark X org as deprecated
(DIR) Post #AVTRpjodg1YCdGjMrQ by cristiioan@fosstodon.org
2023-05-09T07:23:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux meanwhile openbsd still considers xorg secure
(DIR) Post #AVTRplzLbBIxN3kwpU by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T07:24:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cristiioan OpenBSD has Xenocara fixing it's serious problems
(DIR) Post #AVTRxE2rgOdAPkxHSC by SRAZKVT@tech.lgbt
2023-05-09T07:42:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux based
(DIR) Post #AVTRyiW7sGhZD9Lwps by sanfierro@pony.social
2023-05-09T07:31:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux Does every X11 relying app work in Wayland in RHEL now?
(DIR) Post #AVTSFmB7W0XnUNf6yu by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2023-05-09T08:59:17.785232Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux >wayland is still a fucking shitty mess>"Let's force it on our users"
(DIR) Post #AVTSIWmvBznCcqehVI by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T09:20:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg Deprecated doesn't mean removed
(DIR) Post #AVTSaDqOMfO35HiSiO by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T07:21:54.670961Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux Of course Fedhat Linux wants this...cc @dcc
(DIR) Post #AVTStPxdXSG8AMG3Dk by mithicspirit@mathstodon.xyz
2023-05-09T07:22:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux I'd love to switch over to wayland if they had functioning hackable window managers (not Qtile because I have too many gripes with it).
(DIR) Post #AVTStRb1SVMHEnh1FY by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-09T07:43:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mithicspirit @BrodieOnLinux dwl, hyprland, river,labwc, sway, ect
(DIR) Post #AVTStVFXsIYUZLfvKS by mithicspirit@mathstodon.xyz
2023-05-09T07:56:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@10leej @BrodieOnLinux dwl is the closest of these of being hackable, but it's still lacking compared to offerings on X11.
(DIR) Post #AVTT1h6vexVXfjYDQW by mateu_protogen2K@piaille.fr
2023-05-09T07:44:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux The inconsistency of Japanese input kinda annoys me about KDE WaylandI should check to see what the situation is on Gnome or maybe even try a tiling manager :shibathinking:
(DIR) Post #AVTTD2zUeNreiXUDZo by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T09:31:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg There will come a time when we all migrate away from X11, it's going to happen
(DIR) Post #AVTTDOiDtH7c5LZjiC by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T09:30:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg Exactly the future is not today, there are things that get marked as deprecated and stick around for 5 years
(DIR) Post #AVTTPReqlTHIhCk5fE by picofarad@noagendasocial.com
2023-05-09T07:27:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux does rhel still use systemd?
(DIR) Post #AVTTPV0EKRA94NlhuC by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T07:49:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@picofarad It's the best option available so why wouldn't they
(DIR) Post #AVTTbtCACv2ZZnG58C by Man2Dev@fosstodon.org
2023-05-09T09:36:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux yes :ablobcatattentionreverse: finally :ablobcatneon:
(DIR) Post #AVTUFfdk1aM17R7vU0 by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T09:43:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg There will always be the exceptions but the migration to systemd is basically done, with the exception of gentoo no major distros offer anything other than systemd. And no one is taking away your choice, you're always free to compile the code yourself but when we get too a tiny group of people who still care about X11 why should the distro bother compiling it for you. Bash and zsh are a very different case, zsh is mostly a superset of bash with a couple of inconsistencies but no one is aiming for zsh to become the standard
(DIR) Post #AVTUdqIe2l9t85mkDI by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T09:47:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg Let's use a different example, should distros keep supporting mir when it's been mostly abandoned by Canonical. By your logic yes because it's supporting your choice to use it but I'm pretty sure we'd both agree that it's a waste of time. Today that isn't the case for X11 but it is going to happen in the relatively near future, I expect the shift to occur around the time GNOME finally drops X11 support.
(DIR) Post #AVTVULFKELZEAOGYRk by stanford@social.arclight.pro
2023-05-09T09:57:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux What is going on in the comments here? :blobcatneutral:First of all, there is no need at all for Redhat and Linux bashing in general.Also, depreciation doesn't mean it will go away right now. It just means they want to discontinue support for it in the future once support for it isn't required anymore.Whoever wants to stick with X11 is free to do so. (And probably isn't using RHEL anyways)
(DIR) Post #AVTYHobW4CkbJgMdhg by RedCyberLizzie@tech.lgbt
2023-05-09T10:28:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux if you run an Nvidia GPU, you cant use RHEL cause wayland on nvidia crashes toast notifications and much higher cpu usage compared to xorg. Seems like a bad move imo
(DIR) Post #AVTaGDycxbULL0XkqO by stanford@social.arclight.pro
2023-05-09T10:50:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg @BrodieOnLinux I can fully understand that an organisation like Redhat just wants to support one display server.Having legacy support just for the sake of it, doesn't really make sense.But to be fair, I don't really understand the extent of this discussion.It is one distro we are talking about. The whole point of the various distros is that each one expresses itself differently, using different software defaults for different use cases.I don't complain about ubuntu using snaps. I don't like snaps but its ubuntu. If they want to use them, they are free to do so.Like you are free to use Arch with OpenRC and X11.And to be fair, whoever is using RedHat has completely different requirements for their OS than most of us and having the freedom to choose from a broad options of display servers is clearly none of them.
(DIR) Post #AVTbqg8xoYe94gKCP2 by deathbybandaid@mastodon.deathbybandaid.net
2023-05-09T11:08:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux THIS. This is a milestone.
(DIR) Post #AVTcuIOu8EX2Y94N1s by stanford@social.arclight.pro
2023-05-09T11:20:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benaryorg @BrodieOnLinux Mh.. okay.I am personally in strong favour of making Wayland the default.But even this depends a bit on the distro.Xorg is just missing some features required for a modern-day desktop.But removing it doesn't make sense right now.There is so much software in the repos right now, much stuff that has a very limited use case.I kinda assume that any actively maintained software has the right to be part of the repo.So, I can't imagine of any reason to remove Xorg just for some sort of Ideological reason actively. But I also don't really see this coming for other distros.But again, for RHEL, this is something which makes sense, as they are required to provide full support for both.
(DIR) Post #AVTcvGyQvGbQPi9ajo by mrscientific@mastodon.social
2023-05-09T11:20:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux If more people start deprecating xorg, then hopefully those proprietary apps will start caring more about xdg portals, even if their app itself runs in xwayland
(DIR) Post #AVTdU264E6AkPRIcKG by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-09T11:26:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mithicspirit @BrodieOnLinux like what?
(DIR) Post #AVTnbLGSML1TQQHaim by CodingThunder@mastodon.social
2023-05-09T13:19:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux I think this is a very bold decision at this point. Wayland is far from stable at the moment. Most things work just fine, but a lot of things need to improve. KDE experience is buggy IMO.
(DIR) Post #AVTrlUKPul58FUEFRg by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T14:06:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@elias I'd like alt text features to become more standard
(DIR) Post #AVTtX9LDLaZB0ptO7s by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-09T14:26:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@elias Pulling text from an image is dead simple especially when talking about clean fonts so it wouldn't be too hard to do
(DIR) Post #AVTvEwk9e8l8dZ0Q7M by mithicspirit@mathstodon.xyz
2023-05-09T14:45:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@10leej @BrodieOnLinux awesomewm, qtile, and xmonad are all more hackable in that they're a lot more convenient to reconfigure imo.
(DIR) Post #AVU7t2vNHfK2qA8ovA by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-09T17:07:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mithicspirit @BrodieOnLinux how so?
(DIR) Post #AVU9HsgeaEcqHcf5Si by mithicspirit@mathstodon.xyz
2023-05-09T17:23:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@10leej @BrodieOnLinux the "reconfigure, recompile, and reinstall" worflow in dwm/l are too cumbersome for me personally. They're fine for something like dmenu where I configured it once ages ago and haven't touched since, but I mess around with my window manager config too much for that to be convenient.
(DIR) Post #AVUNTEVPCYSSUohwCe by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T07:25:12.879395Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan OpenBSD is also submitting their patches upstream.
(DIR) Post #AVUNTHEr2Y08yLzGK0 by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T07:26:45.736987Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan and infact wayland is not secure
(DIR) Post #AVUNTI9vcLefpMgqHY by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T07:27:32.156133Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@dcc @BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan Elephant in the roomhttps://github.com/Aishou/wayland-keylogger
(DIR) Post #AVUXhbEeULqgaSMQ6K by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T07:30:59.913325Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dcc @BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan Even though the author of this keylogger admits it's more of a Linux problem than anything. Linux just really isn't secure, it's a myth unless it has heavy customizations to lock it down like they do in MacOS and Windows Server.OpenBSD tackles all these problems without expecting the user to be an expert (Linux, Windows) or spying on the user like Apple.
(DIR) Post #AVUXhby1le92rBaepM by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T07:32:43.696340Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan aka the os its self needs to be secure, a display server is just a display server
(DIR) Post #AVUaGcgtGjTx92OgO8 by cristiioan@fosstodon.org
2023-05-09T08:11:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @BrodieOnLinux I have used Linux, OpenBSD, FreeBSD/HardenedBSD and Qubes OS. While OpenBSD provides good security out of the box, using it practically is a lot harder than configuring Linux for almost the same level of security. Note: I'm not a security expert, that is just my conclusion after playing around with them
(DIR) Post #AVUaGdLepA5lBTTEvo by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T08:17:05.833263Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cristiioan @dcc @BrodieOnLinux > using it practicallyThis is a meme at this point, I don't believe you or you're mad about wine or vscode.Setting up OpenBSD is so much easier that FreeBSD, Arch or Gentoo combined. The only reason other distros like Debian, Ubuntu are easier is because they ship an already configured desktop system.Plus OpenBSD command line, sysadmin stuff is a breeze, and those manpages are god tier.cc @dcc
(DIR) Post #AVUaGe3GD2yDMhs3tY by cristiioan@fosstodon.org
2023-05-09T09:31:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @BrodieOnLinux I had a hard time configuring all my stuff on openbsd when I was using it compared to even freebsd(which was pretty hard). I do know how to do configs, as I even compiled gentoo from start before. The poiint is that doing what most users would do a laptop/desktop on openbsd can be a lot harder than on almost all other alternatives.
(DIR) Post #AVUaGemHVeyzcKw14K by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T22:25:32.966106Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@cristiioan @dcc @BrodieOnLinux Hard is a misnomer, modern Linux has changed so much about how to setup a system, whereas OpenBSD is still doing everything the old school way and Linux used to be much more similar. I find with FreeBSD, I have to do way, way more tinkering and configing to get a nice desktop setup.
(DIR) Post #AVUakaLWYCNkYogr2W by whynothugo@fosstodon.org
2023-05-09T10:13:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux @charlie_root @dcc @cristiioan This is a ridiculous proof of concept. It needs all the privileges of the client that’s being “attacked” to work. If you’re capable of doing that, your also capable of running a build of Firefox with a key logger built into it.
(DIR) Post #AVUakbNKixQJkiXoUy by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T22:30:58.435386Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@whynothugo @BrodieOnLinux @dcc @cristiioan Even if keyloggers dont work in wayland (which they do) xwayland and your browsers are always going to add attack surface. Not running a root shell in tty or in a terminal is a safe bet. Usage of 2fa and programs like keepassxc instead of the browser to store passwords, etc.
(DIR) Post #AVUamjy5kNG6ywl27U by SRAZKVT@tech.lgbt
2023-05-09T16:53:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux that's outside of what wayland protects against. Wayland protects between processes, what is between processes and libraries is not something wayland worries about, and is the responsability of other projects.
(DIR) Post #AVUamkgl4IzJDTehk0 by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-09T22:31:24.571673Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@SRAZKVT @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux I already said this earlier in the thread
(DIR) Post #AVUtHgScdVzwFtwVFY by picofarad@noagendasocial.com
2023-05-09T19:34:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux 1.4 million lines of text in the systemd source vs 1721 in init.Dunno, i eschew systemd whenever i can. Unfortunately lots of academic and research software wants to run on ubuntu or debian, so i've picked up a few tips and tricks to working with it.I much prefer the simplicity of tossing a script in /etc/init.d/ and using that to control an individual service. systemctl and all of the various logging facilities (if that's the word) it incorporates feel "slower" on like HW.
(DIR) Post #AVUtHh2mT4vC42rNbs by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-05-10T01:58:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@picofarad Apples vs A firetruck. You're not compairing the same things at all.
(DIR) Post #AVV1noTVAsc60kBYcy by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T03:34:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux based red hat
(DIR) Post #AVV3i231zsnUHIAv1k by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T03:37:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux This is extremely stupid because it is not the fault of Wayland itself. Wayland is only one part of a secure system. By using Xorg you are making any sandboxing efforts effectively moot, unless you want to use xpra or virtual machines.
(DIR) Post #AVV3i2t8s8TssuYXFg by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-10T03:55:27.270542Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@gerwingle @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux > Wayland is only one part of a secure system.What are the other parts?> By using Xorg you are making any sandboxing efforts effectively moot, unless you want to use xpra or virtual machines.Chrome and Firefox have their own sandboxing independent of X11, I don't see your point. Xorg runs rootless in most distros now, and Xenocara has privsep built into it.
(DIR) Post #AVV4gsSeFsXqD3Addo by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T04:06:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan This is untrue, xenocara still lacks GUI isolation and many basic security features that Wayland includes by default,https://isopenbsdsecu.re/mitigations/missing_features/
(DIR) Post #AVVCHFfQ9VuEHmR7tA by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T05:01:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux Any userspace application can keylog, bypass the firewall, and basically have an easy sandbox escape. This means that flatpaks, bwrap, and firejail are effectively useless for applications that can connect to your desktop's X11 socket. Using Xorg negatively affects your system's security massively. Sandboxing apps in Xorg is akin to locking your door, but leaving a massive hole in your house right next to it.
(DIR) Post #AVVCHGJ7ltfIGv0pm4 by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-10T05:31:26.515127Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@gerwingle @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux I fail to see how wayland would stop any of that either, also your argument implies the machine is already exploited and it's game over at that point. Good thing we use open source software and trusted sources. I see what your trying to do here, spread FUD about X11 in order to push wayland fanboyism, it's obvious. It's security theater and parroting of misinformation.
(DIR) Post #AVVbSW7foCBPMU7UrA by ProfessorCode@fosstodon.org
2023-05-10T10:13:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux @elias Can't you already do it?
(DIR) Post #AVVivW67gDXtMSAapc by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T03:42:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperSnekFriend @BrodieOnLinux Xorg is more of a mess than Wayland. "Shitty" is quite a broad word too. I'd argue Xorg is more "shitty" than Wayland because Xorg lacks basic GUI isolation, good multi monitor support, improvements to it's featureset, developers maintaining the damn thing, actually good vsync that prevents screen tearing, I could go on really.
(DIR) Post #AVVivWhLRpJtDtaJqi by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2023-05-10T11:37:21.319015Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@gerwingle @BrodieOnLinux Xorg: Does what I want it to do.Wayland: Doesn't do what I want it to do.Therefore Wayland is shit.
(DIR) Post #AVW4Il16TXXHKUkGrw by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T15:24:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperSnekFriend @BrodieOnLinux What is it you want to do? Have an accessible rootless keylogger? Have worse multi monitor support? Have an easy sandbox bypass?
(DIR) Post #AVW4IlfA4bZvKjUGJ6 by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2023-05-10T15:36:52.510769Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gerwingle @BrodieOnLinux >Have an accessible rootless keylogger?*Doesn't download and click on ObamaBidenBBCGayPorn.mp4.bat*Ez!>Have worse multi monitor support? >Wayland can do fuck all on MORE MONITORSLmao!>Have an easy sandbox bypass?Sounds like a skill issue.*Drags files from Dolphin to Firefox-clone in KDE**Xorg allows one to recognize the other**Wayland does not*Wayland a shit!
(DIR) Post #AVWQ1zyjnC75nl3KPg by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T15:29:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux Linux itself is not secure but there are mitigations that one can put in place (using Wayland, sandboxing applications, etc) if you sandbox an application properly then it likely can't do much. However on Xorg, as I said, it's a massive sandbox escape, basically a gaping hole, so most of the sandboxing in flatpak and bwrap that would mitigate this is almost entirely moot. As far as "trusted open source applications" I don't want my web browser to have direct access to my home directory, or really any application. Sandboxing and Wayland isn't everything though, if you want a complete guide possibly check out madaidan's Linux hardening guide: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/guides/linux-hardening.html
(DIR) Post #AVWQ20hP77qI2Hx02C by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-10T19:40:13.169695Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@gerwingle @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux > if you want a complete guide possibly check out madaidan's Linux hardening guideNo, I just use OpenBSD :open_pepe: Nice handwaving statements 👋
(DIR) Post #AVWYd5TL85uzBgYxF2 by gerwingle@mstdn.starnix.network
2023-05-10T20:43:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux https://isopenbsdsecu.reStill doesn't solve Xorg's security faults either(No Xenocara doesn't include GUI isolation)
(DIR) Post #AVWYd6CiPODLSPnBy4 by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-10T21:16:37.764069Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@gerwingle @dcc @cristiioan @BrodieOnLinux This guy has never heard of pledge and unveil 🤣cc @dcc
(DIR) Post #AVWYhE1vFngwt4iBge by dcc@annihilation.social
2023-05-10T21:17:25.795054Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlie_root @gerwingle @BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan im already in the thread lol :alex_lol: , also :a_openbsd:
(DIR) Post #AVWYkxzSpZZkIdLV44 by charlie_root@annihilation.social
2023-05-10T21:18:04.453785Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dcc @BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan @gerwingle I never check that shit :chad_2: