Post AVQjFKdkX6cTGFG4Lg by shacker@zirk.us
(DIR) More posts by shacker@zirk.us
(DIR) Post #AVP3b17zMxUBsn6HFw by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-07T06:25:56Z
1 likes, 4 repeats
Best explanation I've seen of why the Paradox of Tolerance is no paradox at all. #philosophy
(DIR) Post #AVP4Su5LllXTg6YqUS by thomholwerda@social.tchncs.de
2023-05-07T06:35:38Z
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@shacker I'm not sure how deep this goes in other countries, but in The Netherlands there's this annoying tendency to try and engage with intolerance, as if they had a rational debate when they stormed the beaches of Normandy.Some people just should not be engaged. Some people are just too far gone and it's totally okay to treat them for what they are - nazis - and ignore them so we can focus our energy on the rest of us.
(DIR) Post #AVP6Tj4CQBzrhcXhdg by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-07T06:58:15Z
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@thomholwerda Very well said. It can be a tough to thread the needle sometimes, often when trying to figure out if someone is debating "in good faith" or just wasting your time by masquerading as a fair debater. But yeah at some point you realize there's no getting through, and just need to just let it go. As difficult as that is sometimes.
(DIR) Post #AVPZl7UnkGtR3sdEW0 by ainmosni@berlin.social
2023-05-07T12:26:20Z
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@shacker Good explanation, and I agree, but "Contract of tolerance" doesn't have the same ring to it.. :)
(DIR) Post #AVPZqSsJgXNSofBBce by woozle@toot.cat
2023-05-07T12:27:17Z
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@shacker Yonatan Zunger made this point in 2017: Tolerance is not a moral precept(see also Issuepedia)
(DIR) Post #AVPaizXeRmmJleVvJQ by Remittancegirl@mstdn.social
2023-05-07T12:37:09Z
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@shacker @thomholwerda The big clue is when they're hoping for your death.
(DIR) Post #AVPb2NsSBzcqkFUVcG by forschungstorte@mastodon.xyz
2023-05-07T12:40:39Z
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@shacker #Alt4You Text on Image:The Paradox of tolerance disappears if you look at tolerance, not as a moral standard, but as a social contract. If someone does not abide by the terms of the contract, then they are not covered by it. In other words: The intolerant are not following the rules of the social contract of mutual tolerance. Since they have broken the terms of the contract, they are no longer covered by the contract, and their intolerance should NOT be tolerated.
(DIR) Post #AVPb9hgQx5lmCRMJua by pbaesse@ursal.zone
2023-05-07T12:41:58Z
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@shacker @cstross very nice. Could you add a alternative text??
(DIR) Post #AVPbOVQYnmX2X2zbcW by graygoogirl@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T12:44:39Z
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@shackerI don't think this stands up to scrutiny. If the only reason to not tolerating intolerance is that it violates the social contract, then by extension we shouldn't tolerate anything that violates the social contract, which makes the people who set policies about what is socially acceptable able to dictate who should or shouldn't be tolerated. This is why queer folk have suffered ostracization and demonization for so long. You can't really divorce ethics from tolerance.
(DIR) Post #AVPcDJYyfkwKVL9o4O by ostrich@mstdn.social
2023-05-07T12:53:50Z
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@shacker This is a bad take. The social system that conditions your basic human rights on meeting a set of obligations is called fascism.
(DIR) Post #AVPe2IItDNJrJyVN20 by TammyGentzel@awscommunity.social
2023-05-07T13:14:15Z
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@shacker Love it.
(DIR) Post #AVPe2WAXfCxcK8htxo by kierkegaank@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-05-07T13:14:14Z
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@shacker been cassandra-ing this since i was a teenager
(DIR) Post #AVPh2S2fJ8ObO1gOAq by randynose@fosstodon.org
2023-05-07T13:47:55Z
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@shacker @william_shottsGood way to explain that... Tolerance = MUTUAL tolerance. For the Social Contract to work.
(DIR) Post #AVPkzuwrmFcXzD19Yu by GhostOnTheHalfShell@masto.ai
2023-05-07T14:32:08Z
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@shacker Agree. Bad faith actors cannot be negotiated with for the same reason. They are not bound by what they sign up for.Invoking violence on another does not need to be tolerated, ever.Vilification, defamation and blood libel, the bread and butter of the likes of Fox or DailyWire are also bad faith and for those claiming piety, false witness.They accuse the godless (left) of their own acts and as it turns out their own values. https://youtu.be/4Lg_Gh3-KUs
(DIR) Post #AVPmOHfJ4IQDLSzF9U by Kendry@toot.io
2023-05-07T14:47:52Z
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@shacker People do not understand the social contract. I say, "If you won't try to hurt me, I won't try to hurt you." Some guy hurts me. As far as my personally being restrained, in this situation I am back in the state of nature. I may fight back. The only thing that limits my actions are my bonds to my society, and my society says not to reply with any more force than is needed to protect myself. My society demands that I call the cops, not add a counter attack to a block.
(DIR) Post #AVPnjEdLdPjfyicncu by TrevP@mastodon.online
2023-05-07T15:02:51Z
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@shacker If you live in a society, opting out of the rules of that society is not an option. Conform or otherwise expect the backlash of the powerful. The degree of Tolerance of variations in thought and behavior with in a society is also set by the powerful. I don't understand what a social contract is - do they exist? I've not signed one.
(DIR) Post #AVPo6IyNfSF063Smwa by MeiLin@rubber.social
2023-05-07T15:07:01Z
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@shacker This should always be shared and reshared. Maybe everyone will have seen it eventually that way.
(DIR) Post #AVPpQla37BpiZEP3Ng by strangefreeworld@masto.ai
2023-05-07T15:21:53Z
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@shacker Someone I follow on The Bird Site calls America ‘a conversation about what we owe to each other’. Another way I have heard it said is all are welcome to the table but part of being at the table is respecting the validity of everyone else there. If you can’t accept someone *as they are*, it’s more likely a you problem.
(DIR) Post #AVPpfAyjTxBNONosKm by mamiofwind@kolektiva.social
2023-05-07T15:24:32Z
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@shacker it truly is the best explanation out there. i can't believe we still have to go back to a couple hundred years old ideas to solve moral-political riddles.
(DIR) Post #AVPs42GvBqRTXMJDUW by Crell@phpc.social
2023-05-07T15:51:26Z
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@shacker Since some folks seems to be debating what tolerance means, I will drop a link to Scott Alexander's excellent (if characteristically long) piece on the subject.The key part is the two parables at the beginning.https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/
(DIR) Post #AVQ0Lat6XdkvS73IVU by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-07T17:24:15Z
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@forschungstorte Thank you, added! Hopefully someday my Masto client Ivory will support Alt text during posting.
(DIR) Post #AVQ0eNkBdNqSBoq7qi by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-07T17:27:40Z
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@pbaesse @cstross Added.
(DIR) Post #AVQ0invKEzYqXi9tFg by gavinisdie@masto.ai
2023-05-07T17:28:23Z
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@shacker my brain was fried by the non Euclidean cube
(DIR) Post #AVQ7PDnx0OaShOJnyi by andrewblasco@masto.es
2023-05-07T18:43:21Z
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@shacker @forschungstorte I didn't read the alt text in the photo, sorry =/Have you tried Mona, IceCubes or other app? I think Ivory is falling behind in features...
(DIR) Post #AVQFKRemsJgBqWGX32 by gimulnautti@mastodontti.fi
2023-05-07T20:12:07Z
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@shacker @ileoo This is why punch a nazi still works.
(DIR) Post #AVQJXcNIjkI0fVciRc by ozofriendly@mastodon.au
2023-05-07T20:59:18Z
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@shacker utter guff :blobcatfacepalm:
(DIR) Post #AVQTYAdYLlroTL7xJ2 by arensb@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T22:51:27Z
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@shacker The way I like to look at it is: I don't want tolerance for its own sake. I just want to do my own thing without people bugging me about it, just like everyone else, and mutual tolerance is a way to achieve that. If someone doing their own thing involves making life miserable for someone else, we don't need to put up with that.
(DIR) Post #AVQTcZlSrtPJYvvd2W by mysturji@mastodonapp.uk
2023-05-07T22:52:16Z
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@shacker A+
(DIR) Post #AVQUnf27ifyR2hZPZA by staidwinnow@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T23:05:29Z
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@shacker But the intolerant and the tolerant never agreed to any contract. The social contract we do follow is that the tolerant tolerate the intolerant. It survives because we currently do not have that many that are intolerant.That's the other part of the paradox. A tolerant society that doesn't tolerate the intolerant, is by definition, intolerant.We only hear of the first part: "Tolerating the intolerant leads to the destruction of the tolerant."
(DIR) Post #AVQXkyzdLvSbwNougK by pbaesse@ursal.zone
2023-05-07T23:38:37Z
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@shacker @cstross Thanks a lot mate
(DIR) Post #AVQZMmCfS95rESVBT6 by Ferles@meow.social
2023-05-07T23:56:39Z
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@shacker excellent!
(DIR) Post #AVQdxo3Tvk8fVU7Ndg by peedee@mstdn.social
2023-05-08T00:48:10Z
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@shacker I agree in principle but I"m not sure how this works in practice. What does it mean to say that "intolerance should not be tolerated"?
(DIR) Post #AVQjFKdkX6cTGFG4Lg by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-08T01:47:22Z
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@peedee it means there is no place at the table for neo-Nazis, that there is no obligation for us to let them air their laundry in our face. We don’t need to allow both sides equal airtime, when one side is intolerant.
(DIR) Post #AVQwM2BGrTVVRRSoZE by KraftTea@mastodon.social
2023-05-08T04:14:13Z
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@shacker *nods*If you come to my party and take a dump on the floor, suffice it to say that you have broken the social contract, written or not.As such, you will be invited to practice your civil liberties... somewhere else.
(DIR) Post #AVQx4hxYtEQVl4Lyls by rood@aus.social
2023-05-08T04:22:17Z
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@shacker you're not including the classic problem heroes face: what about the lesser abilities of innocent bystanders? They didn't ask for the villain vs hero contest in a way that's dangerous to bystanders. When the hero is intolerant of the villain, and no limits are required the hero falls into the trap of being a very fallible hero. Communist East Germany for example. Or the USA's use of nuclear weapons on a civilian population. You're delving in murkier practices because of rage and dragging every innocent bystander down because of a territorial war with a villain.Seems nuts to me!
(DIR) Post #AVR2iTUIcCSeEDRovo by dadbod@pdx.social
2023-05-08T05:25:30Z
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@shacker This implies that everyone has the same definition of social contract and actually abides by it. People’s actions over the last few years regarding Covid has shown that social contract is almost nonexistent.
(DIR) Post #AVRKMztpE86VYVIP32 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2023-05-08T08:43:18Z
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@shacker @forschungstorte Wow, it doesn’t? That’s unconscionable. What’s the deal, @ivory?(I just downloaded the app to test but I’m not going to subscribe just to see whether or not it allows accessible toots or not as posting is a premium feature.)PS. Thanks for adding the alt text in. Will boost now.
(DIR) Post #AVRMeSaG231hLkb7lg by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-05-08T09:08:52Z
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@shacker The Zunger article, for those who would like to read the whole thing (which you should if you haven't - there's a reason I have it pinned on my profile) 👉 https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376
(DIR) Post #AVROrx46DLhzYi7Ji4 by alexelcu@social.alexn.org
2023-05-08T09:33:44Z
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@shacker Paradox of tolerance is indeed not a paradox, but that's because the world does not function based on first principles. So yes, tolerance is a "social construct" (AKA culture).The rest does not follow, for the same reason: this isn't math or an actual contract governed by the law.And we need to watch out for the mental gymnastics we pull that justifies because the internal conflict we feel may be our conscience trying to tell us something.
(DIR) Post #AVRRnDJEgvEuLzd5Wq by vincent@hoot-n-tea.art
2023-05-08T10:06:29Z
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@shacker Finally! I'm tired of sharing this everywhere every time someone brings up the tolerance paradox. It's refreshing to see it somewhere else. Thanks, fediverse stranger!
(DIR) Post #AVRWFN9g4tBcoaqDlA by alexanderhay@mastodon.social
2023-05-08T10:56:24Z
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@shacker Never let your principles get in the way of what is right.
(DIR) Post #AVRWL4ErK04rssyqLQ by Qbitzerre@unbound.social
2023-05-08T10:57:26Z
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@shacker yeah all you've got to do is define tolerance.
(DIR) Post #AVRYeCS9ClTylrRl4q by HelenGraham@mastodon.world
2023-05-08T11:23:18Z
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@shacker Overall I agree ,But there also needs to be a balance between tolerance of something that only detrimentally affects a minority of people if the impact of toleration is detrimental to everyone else .Eg some folk like to drink and sing loudly in public places ,walk around naked ,let dogs run around uncontrolled etc ,its not being intolerant to expect them to do things like that only in designated places
(DIR) Post #AVRYj7rtg6J002q83c by peedee@mstdn.social
2023-05-08T11:24:11Z
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@shacker I'm sorry but I don't find this to be a helpful answer, for a few reasons. First, most of the intolerant people I encounter are not open neo-Nazis. Second, i don't encounter any IRL, it's all on internet. Third, I don't decide who gets airtime. So how do I "not tolerate" intolerant people who present theselves under various guises (concerned about children, reverse-discrimination, traditional values, etc) who enter venues where I'm not the gate keeper?
(DIR) Post #AVRZDyV0YvfRv1qMTI by matiu_bidule@mamot.fr
2023-05-08T11:29:44Z
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@shackerSame story by Xkcd
(DIR) Post #AVRaa9xUjkUbmiJIx6 by abcderian@techhub.social
2023-05-08T11:45:00Z
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@shacker best sentence I ever read: " if toleration is taken to the point of tolerating the destruction of those processes by which toleration is itself guaranteed, it becomes intolerable."
(DIR) Post #AVRgU0JOI3Frqx048G by luana@tech.lgbt
2023-05-08T12:51:05Z
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@shacker Having tolerance as a contract makes it something optional, one can just not accept the contract and then they can be intolerant - meaning that intolerance wouldn’t have to be stopped, just wouldn’t be protected
(DIR) Post #AVRgyASb7fk011gp6W by electrafish@social.electrafish.tech
2023-05-08T12:56:29Z
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@shacker It is a clever phrasing that gets around the contradiction of a "tolerant" society still holding some views as wrong. However, in practice this redefinition of "tolerance" seems more like sophistry. Too often, people touting tolerance take a "my way or the highway" approach to enforcing their view, even if those they disagree with aren't pushing any policy change. 1/2
(DIR) Post #AVRw7qk2n0lj4FvOoS by mcg@social.lol
2023-05-08T11:38:08Z
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@aral @shacker @forschungstorte @ivory It supports it on iOS. Updated… also supports it on macOS.
(DIR) Post #AVRw7rLGYcXivhL7pY by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-08T15:46:23Z
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@mcg @aral @forschungstorte @ivory It is *not* supported on iOS. I filed a bug report and they acknowledged it. They’ll get to it. This is the entirety of their Share Sheet currently.
(DIR) Post #AVRxFiu5uko51twauW by mcg@social.lol
2023-05-08T15:58:58Z
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@shacker @aral @forschungstorte @ivory This looks like it supports adding descriptions during posting. This was the statement made.
(DIR) Post #AVRxfdSglojhgGTtnk by ivory@tapbots.social
2023-05-08T16:03:39Z
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@shacker @mcg @aral @forschungstorte Yes we don't have alt text support in the share sheet yet. It's on our list of things to add. We recommend adding media from within the app compose view which does allow you to add alt text.
(DIR) Post #AVRxiuyc6ftMs3ylFI by potatogunkelly@infosec.exchange
2023-05-08T16:04:12Z
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@shacker @forschungstorte
(DIR) Post #AVRxs41Nqe0dWqdTma by potatogunkelly@infosec.exchange
2023-05-08T16:05:53Z
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@shacker @mcg @aral @forschungstorte @ivory
(DIR) Post #AVSeWkvVwV0sFtyb0y by ivory@tapbots.social
2023-05-08T16:01:34Z
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@aral @shacker @forschungstorte We support adding alt text in posts. We have since the beginning.
(DIR) Post #AVSeWletDnJEWdCpk0 by Fairaday@mastodon.social
2023-05-08T20:00:34Z
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@ivory @aral @shacker @forschungstorte Yeahp. Ivory has been my Masto app since release and I alway add alt text. You just tap the photo after attaching it. Maybe they just don’t realize the workflow.
(DIR) Post #AVSeWmNuWPK0mGGmum by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:03:53Z
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@Fairaday @ivory @aral @forschungstorte Well of *course* I know I can add alt text *after* posting, but that’s not what I’m talking about. This stuff has to be frictionless if we want it to happen.
(DIR) Post #AVSecfimD1tBqfq6c4 by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:04:59Z
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@Fairaday @ivory @aral @forschungstorte A workaround for a bug or missing feature is not a solution, it’s a workaround.
(DIR) Post #AVSerLQ7y9g5EM73su by maxheadroom@hub.uckermark.social
2023-05-08T16:13:15Z
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@ivory @aral @shacker @forschungstorte I can definitely confirm that this work in #Ivory since the beginning. Using it all the time ... find it quite conveniently implemented actually.
(DIR) Post #AVSerM99GlgrTzB13g by dharrison@mstdn.ca
2023-05-08T16:16:46Z
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@maxheadroom @ivory @aral @shacker @forschungstorte Seconded. The statement that that Ivory does not support alt text is quite unfair.For Scot - you add alt text by long-pressing the image thumbnail on the compose screen before you post, and choose Add Description.
(DIR) Post #AVSerMkN2NSrLQak4m by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:07:37Z
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@dharrison @maxheadroom @ivory @aral @forschungstorte Of course I know how to do it from within Ivory! I’m talking about adding all text while posting an image to Ivory from the share sheet. That is the missing feature that Ivery acknowledges. Going back to the post and adding alt text afterwards is a workaround, not a solution.
(DIR) Post #AVSezWlFgkpGigtahV by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:09:06Z
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@maxheadroom @ivory @aral @forschungstorte This is the entirety of the provided UI, with no option to add alt text during posting from the share sheet.
(DIR) Post #AVSf4hQnReCDGCnHsm by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:09:58Z
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@potatogunkelly @forschungstorte Right, that’s all I’m talking about, the share sheet. Because that is the only way my image posts originate.
(DIR) Post #AVSfDlxrxWa7vWadSS by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:11:41Z
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@ivory @mcg @aral @forschungstorte For sure, that is a workaround that works, but unfortunately, there’s no way to access images in the Lightroom mobile app from there. I’d have to export from Lightroom to Apple Photos, and then post directly from with the I Ivory app - quite a workaround.
(DIR) Post #AVSfIAtNDmCIOdaOqu by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T00:12:29Z
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@mcg @aral @forschungstorte @ivory That is not a screenshot of the share sheet, that is a screenshot of posting from within the Ivory app itself.
(DIR) Post #AVSg4uw1L3vz5y4BXM by mcg@social.lol
2023-05-09T00:21:17Z
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@shacker @aral Correct. The original issue was “support Alt text during posting”. Which Ivory does support. Sharing via share sheet is something else.
(DIR) Post #AVSgPJpiTdX46jqVpw by lkanies@hachyderm.io
2023-05-09T00:24:57Z
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@shacker @ivory @mcg @aral @forschungstorte I highly recommend the Linky app for sharing — it supports alt text, plus some other great features
(DIR) Post #AVSk0LX3QGxZxDSrYW by Fairaday@mastodon.social
2023-05-09T01:05:17Z
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@shacker @ivory @aral @forschungstorte it’s not after posting. It’s after attaching the image to the post, before publishing. Admittedly, took me a second to figure it out. Like… so many people complain about software when there isn’t an instruction manual. I’m guilty of it too. Just provide feedback to TapBots that it could be more obvious.
(DIR) Post #AVT9uynESCjn3CkeZs by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T05:55:39Z
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@Fairaday @ivory @aral @forschungstorte The workaround you guys are suggesting is this: 1) Post from Lightroom via the Share Sheet2) Open the Ivory app, find the post, edit it, add the Alt textThat IS after posting
(DIR) Post #AVTC7uFmqIase2Op9c by jhall@techhub.social
2023-05-09T06:20:22Z
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@shacker Can't you say the same of virtually any intolerant view?"Racism is tolerant of the in-group, so it's okay""Sexism is tolerant of the in-group so it's okay.""Classism is tolerant of the in group so it's okay."
(DIR) Post #AVTRXjZTqaJkf53VIG by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T07:23:09Z
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@mcg @aral I ONLY post images from Lightroom Mobile via the Share Sheet. That is ALL I'm talking about.
(DIR) Post #AVTU3Um8apSjwqFTFY by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T07:20:53Z
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@lkanies @ivory @mcg @aral @forschungstorte Excellent, thank you, will give it a try.
(DIR) Post #AVTU3WAHQYMuG0YGWG by lkanies@hachyderm.io
2023-05-09T07:59:12Z
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@shacker @ivory @mcg @aral @forschungstorte I’ve been using it longer than I’d like to admit. I especially love that I can select text in a browser and share it via mastodon (or the twits) and it will post a link, with a screenshot of the text, with alt text. And you can add alt text toImages from therehttps://apps.apple.com/us/app/linky-for-twitter-and-mastodon/id438090426I never use any app’s share sheet to post any more
(DIR) Post #AVTXRPADPNPhM9bSZk by Fairaday@mastodon.social
2023-05-09T07:27:07Z
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@shacker @ivory @forschungstorte I’m not talking about Lightroom at all.Open IvoryTap the horn buttonWrite your post, attach an imageTap image, add alt textPublish postIn this case, it’s an integration with Lightroom that’s failing your workflow.
(DIR) Post #AVTxrPGgEzNo17gc9w by potatogunkelly@infosec.exchange
2023-05-09T09:51:03Z
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@shacker @forschungstorte cool! Is it worth editing the original post to say that then, since it looks like it’s generating a lot of unneeded side traffic?
(DIR) Post #AVTxrQIUPkQND1XZcO by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T15:15:11Z
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@potatogunkelly @forschungstorte Did I say otherwise at some point? Not sure I want to dig through this mega thread. Let it be.
(DIR) Post #AVTxw06xCVwdRUKN4C by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T15:16:05Z
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@Fairaday @ivory @forschungstorte That is not the workflow I use or am talking about. I only post from Lightroom.
(DIR) Post #AVTy57FK2hLsB3aX3I by shacker@zirk.us
2023-05-09T15:17:44Z
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@Fairaday @ivory @forschungstorte And it’s not Lightrooms fault - Ivoty supplies it’s Share Sheet to iOS. Look, Ivory has acknowledged it, has said they will fix it . Enough!
(DIR) Post #AXjAdMmufc9V5ctBhY by toby1kenobi@fosstodon.org
2023-07-15T19:03:14Z
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@shacker I think this is an oversimplification of the article that other commenters purport this to summarise. The text in this image implies that following this simple principle leads to making good choices about who to tolerate and who not to tolerate, but it doesn't work...