Post AVQFr8HTw2RfJDx2dk by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
(DIR) More posts by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
(DIR) Post #AVPxTUvoGsxNQvOXi4 by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T16:49:49Z
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An entirely unnecessary article, even with all the little nuances. Sociopaths are charming. Holmes has been rightly convicted of massive financial crimes. She perpetuated those crimes knowingly over years and lies to herself about them. She and everyone around her acts like she’s a teenager who doesn’t/didn’t know better. Does she deserve years of jail? That’s a question about the carceral state. But she can’t admit she lied and none of her enablers can either. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-interview.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
(DIR) Post #AVPxTVX22UjNIMoGjA by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T16:51:45Z
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@glennf With some notable exceptions related to repeat offenders, the entire concept of incarceration for most non-violent crimes is nuts from every angle.
(DIR) Post #AVPxqcOkfyZTFexOGu by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T16:55:56Z
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@lauren Yeah, I have no sympathy for her crimes, by putting her in jail for many years offers no value to society.
(DIR) Post #AVPxvXfzewaY3SMxzU by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T16:56:46Z
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@glennf Exactly. It only *costs* society.
(DIR) Post #AVPy4AuhezF640MlhA by jonhendry@iosdev.space
2023-05-07T16:58:23Z
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@lauren @glennf I’ll save my sympathy for the poor, not the zillionaires who tried to foist a faulty diagnostic system on society.The problem is that millionaires get too little jail time, not too much.
(DIR) Post #AVPyBtU0LnV2JuYi5A by jonhendry@iosdev.space
2023-05-07T16:59:45Z
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@lauren @glennf Is there any reason to think she wouldn’t do it again if she could just write a check?
(DIR) Post #AVPyGgt6bf3AhlaRwO by bigbee@techhub.social
2023-05-07T17:00:36Z
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@lauren @glennf If her actions at Theranos didn't get people killed, they could have, and she stole millions from investors. I understand your concerns about excessive incarceration in this country, but what penalty do you propose?
(DIR) Post #AVPyKSTK97Sx9ZKAF6 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:01:01Z
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@jonhendry @glennf What possible good does jail time do? It costs society billions in money and lost productivity. It's just animal revenge when violent crimes are not involved. Pure stupidity.
(DIR) Post #AVPyWoo2vxBZteuWtE by jonhendry@iosdev.space
2023-05-07T17:01:46Z
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@glennf @lauren Object lesson. That’s the value for society. Are future millionaire Stanford educated tech crooks smart enough to learn that lesson? Who knows.
(DIR) Post #AVPyWpLiuk7la6fQNk by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:03:26Z
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@jonhendry @glennf Studies have indicated endlessly that there is no teaching value there, since nobody expects to get caught. Same issue as capital punishment.
(DIR) Post #AVPycbsjtnFdYArqXw by jonhendry@iosdev.space
2023-05-07T17:04:38Z
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@lauren @glennf So, what, you’d have her write a check? How about Epstein? He doesn’t seem to have used violence.
(DIR) Post #AVPyptsuHCzX9JHcCu by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T17:05:09Z
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@lauren @jonhendry Prison time for non-violent offenders is about relieving us, not producing an improved outcome for the criminal or society. It reduces productivity, increases costs, etc. The best thing that can be done is barring them from industries in which they committed fraud and making them admit in writing (with penalties for later denying) the specifics they did. Massive community service has a far better result.
(DIR) Post #AVPytnMgSV0a5S4Ia0 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:06:50Z
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@jonhendry @glennf Huh? His behavior was violence by definition. Good bye.
(DIR) Post #AVPzrQyQpytc17A9Bo by bobwyman@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T17:18:28Z
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@lauren @glennf Incarceration for non-violent crimes may be nuts, but some would say that it is still better than all the alternatives.What, in fact, are those alternatives? How would you deal with a case like Theranos' fraud without putting some of the perpetrators in prison?
(DIR) Post #AVQ0Acof229oFPk9Am by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:21:57Z
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@bobwyman @glennf THAT is a discussion worth having that almost nobody wants to have, because warehousing people is so emotionally satisfying to most of the population, even knowing that eventually when these people get out nothing has been served to make society any safer, likely the opposite.
(DIR) Post #AVQ0aNZeKA3iVK0Czg by timbray@cosocial.ca
2023-05-07T17:26:14Z
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@lauren @glennf What, then, is the appropriate sanction for people like the Sacklers and the Enron bandits and the crypto-thieves who steal the savings of the gullible? Fines are just a cost of doing business.Not a rhetorical question. (Disclosure: Viscerally I want to see people like the Sacklers and SBF doing time behind bars. But I’m not comfortable with the feeling.)
(DIR) Post #AVQ0v7pO3ylZkXFw48 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:30:24Z
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@timbray @glennf If as a society we can't come up with solutions that don't involve caging those kinds of criminals at enormous monetary and opportunity cost to society, we have failed as a society. But then, that's not exactly headline news.
(DIR) Post #AVQ1KaBblSA2wPmxma by timbray@cosocial.ca
2023-05-07T17:34:53Z
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@lauren @glennf For the moment, I’m stuck with calling for jail time for big-money scum, because our existing sanctions clearly fail to deter them. But I’d sure love to hear proposals for alternatives.
(DIR) Post #AVQ1SjRhDo5lyYCRTE by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:36:25Z
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@timbray @glennf Massive asset forfeitures relative to their wealth could be a starting point.
(DIR) Post #AVQ1UZ7mZBtqXnl9G4 by bruceg@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T17:34:59Z
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@timbray @lauren @glennf Make the fines proportional to wealth (or income) rather than a fixed amount or capped amount. Iirc Norway does that for speeding fines - they’re scaled to your income so rich folk don’t get to treat it as a minimal expense.
(DIR) Post #AVQ1UZjiIAF0RRVRNg by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T17:36:41Z
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@bruceg @timbray @glennf Yep.
(DIR) Post #AVQ1sJl1LvvJplRGme by video_manager@mstdn.social
2023-05-07T17:41:01Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf MUCH BINGO!!Fines should be *proportionate*, not fixed amounts.
(DIR) Post #AVQ5YhYtXRqdgefWme by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T18:22:16Z
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@lauren @bobwyman The most effective thing seems to be requiring people to perform service (not their own choosing of what service; that's widely abused) and give up income and assets. Home detention is an industry and a badly run one that's designed to collect fees and is full of faulty reporting and abusive behavior.
(DIR) Post #AVQ5itLGawTD7P9ZHk by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T18:24:05Z
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@lauren @timbray It's far easier to claw their wealth back than to ensure convictions. The reason people like that often don't face charges is that it can cost tens of millions of dollars to prosecute with no sure outcome. Civil cases with significant outcomes relative to realized wealth coupled with civil regulations that allow them to be barred from positions in companies (particularly publicly held ones, etc.) is a more reliable punishment.
(DIR) Post #AVQ8nql9vIhyQ5JuoC by timbray@cosocial.ca
2023-05-07T18:56:44Z
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@glennfPardon my cynicism but given the structure of global finance it is relatively easy for the seriously wealthy to conceal their wealth and/or place it beyond the reach of the jurisdiction where they live.@lauren
(DIR) Post #AVQ8nrVx7K8elDDHkG by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T18:58:41Z
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@timbray @glennf True. But additional sanctions might be designed to limit their options in ways that would make it difficult for them to actually *use* that hidden wealth in any practical ways for their day to day lifestyles.
(DIR) Post #AVQ9kJfqZvN2tLiMIy by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T19:09:11Z
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@lauren @timbray The point isn't "rich people may commit crimes and continue to be rich.” That already happens. The question is: is imprisonment for some period, particularly lengthy, something that benefits society except as retribution? For non-violent criminals, prisons exist for *our* desires.
(DIR) Post #AVQAfr17HYpioG6DBI by timbray@cosocial.ca
2023-05-07T19:14:19Z
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@glennf @lauren There is a coherent argument that imprisonment benefits society by deterring others from similar behaviour. Of course, this has been used by our patriarchally-abusive society to bludgeon intersectionally oppressed people with no benefit to anyone except for the prison-industrial complex.But… against the wealthy-plunderer demographic, deterrence might work?Today, about the worst thing the Sacklers of this world might fear is having to move to Spain or Switzerland.
(DIR) Post #AVQAfre6wa1clCLLxg by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:19:35Z
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@timbray @glennf I have not seen evidence to support the theory that prison is *actually* a deterrent to such crimes, nor for capital crimes for that matter. If you can point me to well built studies showing such effective deterrence, that would be welcome.
(DIR) Post #AVQAxDfOKCODylDZLM by ChrisBoese@newsie.social
2023-05-07T19:21:38Z
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@timbray @lauren @glennf Esp when most “punitive” fines are a rounding error for the super rich
(DIR) Post #AVQAxEV9Dln2ZHQu12 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:22:48Z
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@ChrisBoese @timbray @glennf They're not a rounding error if they're tied to the persons' wealth, as is done in some other countries. The richer you are, the bigger the fine.
(DIR) Post #AVQB8sCJyHjKryB3uS by ChrisBoese@newsie.social
2023-05-07T19:24:50Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf That would be great, but it is rarely done in the US, where most fines are barely a slap on the wrist
(DIR) Post #AVQBHNrg7MwjOqa22S by timbray@cosocial.ca
2023-05-07T19:26:25Z
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@lauren @glennf Granted, and I’m not sure I believe in the argument I’m making here. Genuinely in searcher mode. But, having said that, I have to point out that such a study would be effectively impossible given that rich people are jailed for financial crime so infrequently that you’d never get statistically useful numbers.So… maybe we should give it a try?
(DIR) Post #AVQCOy7nnn9Bq7Ip6W by gulovsen@cryptodon.lol
2023-05-07T19:38:57Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf Even if it's not a useful deterrent in some cases, the fact that they can't continue to commit their crimes while in prison is a good enough reason to send them there IMO. I'm not going to advocate for not giving jail time to people who knowingly steal millions/billions of dollars and who would still be able to lead lives that are better than 99.9% of the population if they were sentenced to something other than jail.
(DIR) Post #AVQCaR1gghigf2uTmi by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:41:06Z
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@timbray @glennf That seems like a chicken or egg problem. There are already theoretically long prison sentences on the books for many high level financial crimes. And there have been notable high level long prison sentences. All that seems to have accomplished is having other high level crooks work even harder to avoid being caught. Since rich people can afford better lawyers, they will always tend to have more positive outcomes, and there is no obvious way to change that without hitting equal protection provisions. This country is medieval when it comes to prisons. The percentage of people in jails and prisons who are mentally ill is staggering. The jails and prisons have become the "cage them rather than treat them" modality straight out of Bedlam's chains.
(DIR) Post #AVQCh2Hn4OcZxQacAS by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:42:17Z
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@gulovsen @timbray @glennf Gives you that visceral satisfaction, eh? Even at the enormous costs to society. How nice.
(DIR) Post #AVQD5qLWbBSeAOAJW4 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:46:45Z
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@gulovsen @timbray @glennf More to the point, there are ways other than cages to prevent people from repeating their crimes in this sphere, especially financial crimes that depend on resources to begin with. Step One, remove most of those resources.
(DIR) Post #AVQDhWTQvrnVXNpcA4 by gulovsen@cryptodon.lol
2023-05-07T19:53:14Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf The pretrial shenanigans of SBF showed me that imposing even the most common sense restrictions on people becomes a negotiating point - so much so that even the DOJ was willing to give SBF access to things the judge thought was too much. I would expect the same sort of thing to happen during sentencing. Without jail, the sanctions imposed for these sorts of crimes would simply become a "cost of doing business." We can agree to disagree - but I'm for jail here. 😁
(DIR) Post #AVQDkV6SU6LM9hVNXE by gulovsen@cryptodon.lol
2023-05-07T19:54:05Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf Yes. It's called justice, and justice is expensive.
(DIR) Post #AVQDmLUrAjb2wNnTOK by vecrumba@historians.social
2023-05-07T19:50:03Z
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@timbray @lauren @glennf Jail time *is* the (virtually unexplored) alternative.
(DIR) Post #AVQDmM2t8CoodvieR6 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:54:22Z
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@vecrumba @timbray @glennf They're already on the books. It doesn't stop those crimes. No evidence at all to suggest it does or would, because the culprits don't expect to be caught in the first place! I realize cages are attractive as retribution, but there's zero evidence that they act to reduce future crimes of these sorts. No evidence I've ever seen.
(DIR) Post #AVQDxOaC2RsdhIYuJM by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T19:56:27Z
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@gulovsen @timbray @glennf Justice? Justice for whom? What about for all those people filling the prisons who are certifiably mentally ill? You know why they're there? Because it's cheaper to throw them in cages there than build mental health facilities. And when they eventually come out, they're often more mentally ill than ever. Justice?
(DIR) Post #AVQEsH7mRNpn4XOWC8 by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T19:41:30Z
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@timbray @lauren It's still all about you, though, not about outcomes. You're not answering that question even if you're asking ones! Show Holmes be in prison? Prison is a terrible institution. In the US, one of the most incarcerated nations, maybe 75%-90% of people have no good reason to be in there—doesn't help them or society. Why would I want to add someone if it only makes me feel like I'd had retribution?
(DIR) Post #AVQEsHmXzoRb6yT4jo by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:03:37Z
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@glennf @timbray @lauren With wealthy people, and people with wealthy friends, financial penalties are essentially useless, “the cost of doing business”. Depriving an individual of their personal liberty is the only outcome that would be meaningful, and provides some aspect of *potential* equality across social strata. One can argue that we should eliminate incarceration altogether, but if we are going to have it, the wealthy should be subject to it as well.
(DIR) Post #AVQEsIPtdVv550sV4S by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:06:41Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray Show me any evidence that the long (sometimes VERY long) sentences imposed for any previous major financial crimes have had any impact whatsoever on the rate of future major financial crimes. And if your response is "there aren't enough of those to have had an impact", my response would be that all they do is drive more resourceful crimes, because they will never expect to get caught for those major financial crimes.
(DIR) Post #AVQF0BxpVkcPNrW0Lw by glennf@twit.social
2023-05-07T19:17:14Z
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@timbray @lauren The evidence shows it doesn't deter. https://www.vera.org/news/research-shows-that-long-prison-sentences-dont-actually-improve-safety#:~:text=A%202021%20meta%2Danalysis%20of,because%20incarceration%20destabilizes%20people%27s%20lives. https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence etc etc etcWell studied, well examined with large cohorts. We put people in prison because we want to. Violent criminals may need to be there to protect the rest of us.
(DIR) Post #AVQF0CgUpgLbcOPfyS by AccordionBruce@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T20:04:10Z
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@glennf @timbray @lauren I have a hesitant theory that putting rich white people in prison might encourage #prisonReform in the United States #MarthaStewart: 2 Years In Prison Inspired Me to Fight for Justice Reformhttps://time.com/4948746/prison-sentence-justice-reform/?amp=trueBut I do not trust that putting more people in prison would actually target that cohort
(DIR) Post #AVQF0DSLxkd20ontZI by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:08:08Z
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@AccordionBruce @glennf @timbray And that was generally viewed as a "celebrity prosecution" and penalty, which is another whole discussion point.
(DIR) Post #AVQF3t7JWfGy5aiJQe by bobwyman@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T20:08:44Z
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@lauren @glennf In theory, the incarceration of some should deter others by instilling a fear of the consequence of being caught and convicted. Even if incarceration has no direct benefit, some say it provides an indirect benefit.But, since we imprison so few fraudsters and white-collar criminals, potential criminals tend to worry more about a loss of reputation than imprisonment. Nonetheless, dramatically increasing white-collar incarceration rates is undoubtedly not the answer.
(DIR) Post #AVQF9GFewIoLHuBBAW by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:09:45Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray I’m not sure why we should distinguish *financial* crimes from just “crimes”. Wealthy people shouldn’t go to prison because it will just make other wealthy people cleverer about their crimes?
(DIR) Post #AVQFJ9RD7xHj3FIYmO by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:11:33Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray I'll return to my original premise -- prison should in most cases -- with some notable exceptions -- be reserved for violent crimes.
(DIR) Post #AVQFS0alNy8GDqzROC by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:13:13Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray Are you familiar with how various other countries deal with these kinds of crimes? It's instructive.
(DIR) Post #AVQFdGFdVNyJySTQMi by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:15:12Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray Why? As I said, for the wealthy financial penalties are meaningless. Depriving them of their personal liberty is the only meaningful outcome I can think of. If you have some other appropriate, equitable remedy, I’d love to see it.
(DIR) Post #AVQFes5qILYXd2f0z2 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:15:21Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray It's also important to realize that unlike in most other countries, prisons are an *industry* here, in many cases a FOR PROFIT industry with enormous political clout to impact many aspects of the justice system.
(DIR) Post #AVQFh1H780bAgVxOW8 by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:15:52Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray Could you provide some examples?
(DIR) Post #AVQFr8HTw2RfJDx2dk by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:17:39Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray I agree the incarceration industry is appalling, although they’re not making their money from holding Elizabeth Holmes and Bernie Madoff.
(DIR) Post #AVQFwKQ8ECguPITUpM by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:18:40Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray Google is your friend on this one. There are myriad articles on the criminal justice systems around the world. EU countries are of particular note, while the U.S. is right up there with the most repressive regimes around the world.
(DIR) Post #AVQG6V1pdtBOCexV3Y by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:20:26Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray Ok, although I don’t find “Google it” to be particularly conducive to conversation.
(DIR) Post #AVQGCxlNijI73lLWaW by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:21:41Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray I know, but my time is limited when it comes to providing reference services when self-service is available.
(DIR) Post #AVQGW6UPV60hcrXEQq by michaelgemar@mstdn.ca
2023-05-07T20:25:03Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray I guess that wraps up our discussion, then.
(DIR) Post #AVQGvbNJo0jwehNONM by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-07T20:29:44Z
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@michaelgemar @glennf @timbray For now anyway. Have a good what's left of the weekend.
(DIR) Post #AVQHQWdvRw4WxKtDuK by bobwyman@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T20:35:04Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf US DOJ seems to think incarceration doesn't do much to deter crime. Their National Institute on Justice wrote:- The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment. - Incarceration is an ineffective way to deter crime. - Police deter crime by increasing the perception that criminals will be caught and punished. - More severe punishments do little to deter crime. - No proof that death penalty deters crimehttps://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
(DIR) Post #AVQIhWQ7d9Kv8u6MPA by AccordionBruce@mastodon.social
2023-05-07T20:49:34Z
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@lauren @glennf @timbray TruthIt occurs to me that It’s such a rarity for rich white people to go to prison within our carceral state that they are almost all celebrities
(DIR) Post #AVQVAPvW3G50qoKYfA by rjcc@mastodon.xyz
2023-05-07T23:09:08Z
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@lauren @glennf it's better for violent crimes?
(DIR) Post #AVQn0CcYSwTFrXjyz2 by JoeBeam@mastodon.social
2023-05-08T02:28:58Z
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@lauren @glennf the only reason she is not in jail yet is because she is a white woman. There are plenty of people of color and other marginalized people who shouldn’t be in jail at all! Do something about those people before saying those entitled white collar criminals shouldn’t do jail time. Pretty thoughtless statement.
(DIR) Post #AVQo8bnSqVnuDPPpVA by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-08T02:41:47Z
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@JoeBeam @glennf Keep reading the thread please. It's long.
(DIR) Post #AVQpfe5bRXEiptDVmy by JoeBeam@mastodon.social
2023-05-08T02:58:56Z
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@lauren @glennf I have, there are a lot of injustices in this world, but sending a white woman to jail for her crimes is not one of them.
(DIR) Post #AVQvQB2jkmLe8EsqlU by jemal@jemal.contact
2023-05-07T22:49:08Z
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@lauren @vecrumba @timbray @glennf nearly all nonviolent criminals should be on house arrest. Jail doesn’t deter, doesn’t reform, doesn’t make anyone whole. Taking people away from their community and putting them where they will be subject to state-sanctioned abuse is, frankly evil, harmful to them and society at large, and it ought to sicken us.
(DIR) Post #AVQvQBfNR7Fy44xhzc by vecrumba@historians.social
2023-05-08T03:59:19Z
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@jemal @lauren @timbray @glennf P.S. A criminal executive should NOT be on mega-mansion "arrest".
(DIR) Post #AVQvQCFXGgBDsDsaLw by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-08T04:03:23Z
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@vecrumba @jemal @timbray @glennf The U.S. methodology is right up there with the worst of the tyrannical countries of the world. On the other hand take a look at how the EU and Scandinavia handle crime at all levels. Vastly more successful. But the U.S. is into cruelty and revenge. It always has been. Part of the national ethic.
(DIR) Post #AVcUvGRHrMjRXqm3bU by KalofXeno@mapstodon.space
2023-05-13T18:03:00Z
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@lauren @timbray @glennf not sure why they are having tiling issues. It’s not that hard