Post AVMnsTRPMqfd2DZ8PQ by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AVMnXBlHu6Fe7ciN8K by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:16:31Z
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@deadsuperhero> How exactly is this decentralized, if everything just bubbles up to one centralized repository anyway?I'm still getting my head around the architecture, but maybe the BGS is a logical layer, rather than a specific server? Or maybe there's more than one BGS and users can choose one? Or maybe multiple BGS federate with each other? @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMnsHsGNB1PA22PbM by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:30:08Z
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#Bluesky is finally testing federation with "allow-listed servers".They're finally taking the step of decentralization.Many people will naysay this. But it's absolutely better that they move to decentralization than *not* do it.https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture
(DIR) Post #AVMnsIbHfn2BPf6Mm8 by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:34:28Z
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For those who are technically inclined, this is how federation through #Bluesky's AT protocol will work. It depends on three things:1. Personal Data Server (PDS) 2. Big Graph Service (BGS) 3. App ViewsThis seems quite different from how federation through ActivityPub works.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsJMQqUkRltA1GS by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:36:39Z
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For those who feel that #Bluesky's federation is complex -- and it is -- here's a simplified understanding.1. There's a big firehose of data2. It goes through the "prism" of app view3. Then there's a curated feed of what the user seesBasically, this whole thing depends on algorithms.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsK4OD3uTyDj7mS by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:42:40Z
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From a dev perspective, this will probably be a big problem.Right now, an ActivityPub server can be operated on a Raspberry Pi.You can deploy one inexpensively with minimal investment. Personally, I'm running multiple ActivityPub servers that serve many disparate needs.Starting up a BGS will probably be out of reach for most people.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsKqbJoTUNkHcvY by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:48:08Z
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AT protocol's method of federation isn't server-to-server.It's personal-data-server (PDS) to big graph service (BGS) to labeler / app view / feed gen.And I imagine the BGS *might* federate with other BGS.Yeah, not only is this complicated, the BGS could prove problematic.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsLcSRskumAfqWO by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:51:54Z
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I'm wondering how easy this is going to be.From both the description and diagram, it looks complex.And complexity usually means a whole lot of effort will be needed.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsMAqO2GGUolJ7Q by davidgarywood@social.davidgarywood.com
2023-05-05T22:53:26Z
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@atomicpoet “the marketplace of algorithms” has a big “debate me in the marketplace of ideas” tone to it, to me
(DIR) Post #AVMnsMfKYgeE1N1edc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:20:17Z
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@davidgarywood> “the marketplace of algorithms” has a big “debate me in the marketplace of ideas” tone to it, to meThe latter is a metaphor. The former is a literal marketplace, like an app store, where you can choose the filtering algorithms you want to use, and pay to access them (although there may also be gratis ones).@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMnsNXDKLkWiUEgcq by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T22:57:48Z
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So again, I'm glad that Bluesky is building out federation. Their decentralization efforts don't look like vaporware.Do I think Bluesky's method for federation is better than what's current on ActivityPub? No, I don't.And based on what they've revealed, I don't think AT protocol will win the "node battle" against ActivityPub.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsREZZbDOBpXr7o by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T23:20:32Z
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I re-posted this thread on #Bluesky, and they're not happy about what I have to say.
(DIR) Post #AVMnsTRPMqfd2DZ8PQ by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-05T23:27:58Z
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The response to this thread on Bluesky seems to be, “Saying that regular people should be able to afford a BGS is like saying they should afford to operate a web search engine”. Indeed, that’s what I’m saying. Funny enough, the Searx project makes this possible. https://searx.github.io/searx/
(DIR) Post #AVMnxgNggUcCcDJDxA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:21:19Z
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@davidgarywoodIf you like, we can debate whether “debate me in the marketplace of ideas” is a useful metaphor or not. But that's an entirely separate issue :)@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMo8PThrxYrNSEvA0 by davidgarywood@social.davidgarywood.com
2023-05-06T04:23:14Z
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@strypey @atomicpoet indeed !
(DIR) Post #AVMoSeCOqaPspCnJvE by og@allthingstech.social
2023-05-05T22:38:37Z
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@atomicpoet How can Federation be an algorithm?? ActivityPub isn't an algorithm!
(DIR) Post #AVMoSeyxw1GTFpW6ca by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:26:50Z
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@og> How can Federation be an algorithm?? They're separate things. Federation is how posts travel between servers. Algorithms (in this context) is how they're displayed when they get there. 'Chronological ordering of posts by people I follow' is an algorithm. 'Everything on my server containing #ThisHashtag ' is another one. What BlueSky proposes is to make sorting and filtering algorithms a third-party service users can choose between at their end, and toggle on and off.@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMoZwnE76ReWJV74q by sam@queernerds.social
2023-05-05T22:51:08Z
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@atomicpoet One of the things activitypub has going for it is that the first time I read the spec I was like “ok I can imagine how I’d write something that generated a bunch of posts someone else could subscribe to”. AT is much harder to reason about and I’m not really seeing the benefit of that added complexity yet
(DIR) Post #AVMoZxj0eGfLPWXG8u by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:28:14Z
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@sam> One of the things activitypub has going for it is that the first time I read the spec I was like “ok I can imagine how I’d write something You'll love Nostr then:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110318756245227721@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMpCTP3Jnbsf9Z2Zc by TheVoyageur@mas.to
2023-05-05T23:27:53Z
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@atomicpoet I think competing distributed social protocols could become religious wars like the blockchain world.
(DIR) Post #AVMpCU2OxV5MdBySuG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:35:11Z
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@TheVoyageur> competing distributed social protocols could become religious warsI'm seeing signs as this as people here react to the BlueSky beta in a way that suggests they see it as a threat. Those of us who've been here for a while know that competing protocols is just part of the way decentralized stuff evolves. Before ActivityPub there were Diaspora, OStatus, Friendica's original protocol (LFRN?), and Zot. Software running those is mostly dead (or dying), or running AP.@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMpdIgxFb3VGFjJrM by markb@universeodon.com
2023-05-05T22:55:57Z
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@atomicpoet So Chris even as a techie I need to lean on your expertise here… is it possible that Mastodon and BS can co exist in a way that if my local news TV stations and local paper start putting content on BS it could be seen in my Mastodon feed?
(DIR) Post #AVMpdNCeTgmrFiagoy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:40:01Z
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@markb> is it possible that Mastodon and BS can co exist in a way that if my local news TV stations and local paper start putting content on BS it could be seen in my Mastodon feed?Possible, certainly. Will it happen, who knows? Probably. Bridges are already being written to enable users of AP software (eg Mastodon) to connect with users of AT software (eg BlueSky). It depends if BS is cooperative with or obstructive if such efforts. @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMq3FhH0YLlVBFnF2 by markb@universeodon.com
2023-05-06T04:44:43Z
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@strypey That’s kind of the feeling I have too. I really expected to see more traditional users of Twitter expand their content here but it really seems to have stalled. Now with BS becoming the new darling I fear it’s never going to happen and some kind of bridge similar to birdsite.makeup is the next best thing.
(DIR) Post #AVMq88sPnEIdnTnTAu by PDFlynn@universeodon.com
2023-05-05T23:48:04Z
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@atomicpoet IMO, this is the only part of the story folks should be looking at.This is Jack Dorsey, a founder and former CEO of Twitter. He has started a new social media forum almost exactly like Twitter called #BlueSky.You may find this background on Dorsey revealing.https://www.cnet.com/culture/neo-nazi-ad-on-twitter-prompts-apology-from-ceo/https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/jack-dorsey-twitter-nazis-are-here-to-stayhttps://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/twitter-ceo-jack-dorsey-rolling-stone-interview-782298/https://www.theverge.com/interface/2019/5/30/18645004/twitter-white-supremacy-research-nazi-ban-gadde-dorseyhttps://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Twitter-CEO-s-account-posts-racist-slurs-14402859.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=copy-url-link&utm_campaign=article-share&hash=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc2ZjaHJvbmljbGUuY29tL2J1c2luZXNzL2FydGljbGUvVHdpdHRlci1DRU8tcy1hY2NvdW50LXBvc3RzLXJhY2lzdC1zbHVycy0xNDQwMjg1OS5waHA=&time=MTY4MjczNTE4NzI0Mw==&rid=ZjI0MjEyMzgtNWY2OS00ZTU4LTgyZWItMWQxZmM4OGUyNDMz&sharecount=MQ==https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-ceo-says-holocaust-misinformation-does-not-violate-its-policy-1542904https://twitter.com/Sethrogen/status/1014168992376766470?s=20https://www.vice.com/en/article/8q8emg/white-supremacists-are-still-using-twitter-ads-to-spread-their-messagehttps://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/07/twitter-swings-the-mighty-ban-hammer/492209/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharehttps://acrobat.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A59e2c107-f824-3bb1-b1ab-9acf43b80a48https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/02/05/twitter-ceo-dick-costolo-finally-admits-the-obvious-we-suck-at-dealing-with-abuse/
(DIR) Post #AVMq89TdYq4devDCC0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:45:37Z
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@PDFlynnAT is a documented federation protocol. Source code is available. We can evaluate on technical merits without going down rabbitholes about one of the people involved.@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMqN2Y9b97KWDQKsS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:48:19Z
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@PDFlynnThis kind of gotcha "journalism"...https://www.cnet.com/culture/neo-nazi-ad-on-twitter-prompts-apology-from-ceo/... serves nobody except the publisher who gets clicks, the ad networks who get data from clickers, and the advertisers who get eyeballs.@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVMqms9OsvCHnMABhw by thull@mastodon.social
2023-05-06T00:20:14Z
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@atomicpoet @mike saying finally as if they've been around for decades.
(DIR) Post #AVMqmss4CqvU1t3rKS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T04:52:57Z
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@thull> saying finally as if they've been around for decades.They've been around for years and had more funding than any decentralized social web startup since Diaspora. Probably more than all fediverse software put together. Putting up a beta without even finishing the federation protocol, let alone their implementation, is kind of embarrassing. Particularly because it also meant their moderation system was unfinished.@atomicpoet @mike
(DIR) Post #AVMqyRGcfA0FtO3a0e by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-06T04:54:58Z
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@strypey @thull @mike Specifically, Bluesky has been around since 2019. It’s one year younger than ActivityPub’s validation by the W3C.
(DIR) Post #AVNNeKm6O8TcS7nmvA by TheVoyageur@mas.to
2023-05-06T11:01:09Z
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@strypey @atomicpoet I wasn't around this space when different protocols started federation. What did they technically do, have servers able to serve and request data in both protocol request formats?
(DIR) Post #AVNn0Dud55XeOUKD8S by PDFlynn@universeodon.com
2023-05-06T15:45:16Z
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@strypey I humbly disagree sir.
(DIR) Post #AVNn7G0NhNCquaMxdI by PDFlynn@universeodon.com
2023-05-06T15:46:30Z
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@strypey One of the people involved? He owns the company.
(DIR) Post #AVNpXoqD0AlMOIP9Ie by thull@mastodon.social
2023-05-06T10:54:21Z
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@atomicpoet They literally only even have employees since 2021. It's an invit-only beta with <100.000 people. There's no "finally" here. They are right on pace.
(DIR) Post #AVNpXpNsyxhY4kA2nA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T16:13:45Z
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@thull> They literally only even have employees since 2021... or to put it another way, they finally got employees in 2021 ;)But none of this changes the fact they've rushed into production before finishing a full working prototype. Which suggests the marketing department is in charge of the release schedule, not the engineering department :/So whether or not they're on schedule is kind of beside the point.@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO1oUWN0FjFk5qF6W by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T18:31:12Z
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@TheVoyageur> What did they technically do, have servers able to serve and request data in both protocol request formats?Initially there were distinct networks. Then some of the apps started implementing other protocols, particularly Friendica, Hubzilla, and SocialHome, leading to a hybrid network. Around that time, reps from as many apps as possible were brought together in a W3C process that led to the AP spec. Most apps implemented it.Is this a fair summary @deadsuperhero?@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO4h9yjHVAnrlIngG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T19:03:31Z
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@PDFlynn> I humbly disagree sirAbout which bit?
(DIR) Post #AVO5zNqCZzoe1hZDxA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T19:18:01Z
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@PDFlynn> He owns the companyEven if true, unless this gives him magical powers, it has no bearing on the technical merits of the BlueSky software or the AT Protocol. One correction to my last post, apparently not all BlueSky source code is available (yet?).Secondly, Dorsey is the major funder since Titter pulled out and he sits on the board, but he is not the CEO (@arcalinea is). I've yet to find solid evidence for who owns the company. Can you link me?
(DIR) Post #AVOe4q2aYdplNN8LL6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-07T01:39:59Z
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@TheVoyageurI forgot to mention the IndieWeb, which is another network again with its own set of minimalist protocols connecting personal websites into a social web. Some of them started linking into the fediverse too around the same time, through AP bridges like BridgyFed.Is that a fair description @snarfed.org? @deadsuperhero@atomicpoet