Post AVFAnCvs3vzG4Eaotc by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
(DIR) More posts by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
(DIR) Post #AVDajs9d4FJnFTB8Mq by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-01T17:39:17.053809Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
The word “overpopulation” makes it seem as if the issue lies with the amount of human beings alive today, while in reality the issue is the unjust distribution of resources.
(DIR) Post #AVDajsmGkaE7BJFzay by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-05-01T17:40:47.735533Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik we are somewhat overpopulated in that we can't grow enough food without continuous production of industrial fertilizers (harber-bosch.)
(DIR) Post #AVDeKpMKiprh9mQxma by EvilSandmich@poa.st
2023-05-01T18:21:07.206163Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik > unjust distribution of resourcesI concur. Africans have 12 kids and I have one, therefor they should work (harder) to subsidize me so that I can have more.
(DIR) Post #AVEsbo3qOYbOZNjhPU by canusfeminacanis@mastodon.nz
2023-05-02T06:12:09Z
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@Erik Well, it's both....
(DIR) Post #AVEsbown6GYRJnRa3U by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T07:14:02.560574Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
No. We have enough food to feed the planet 8 times over. It’s distribution of resources, not amount of people. Wouldn’t it be awesome if the people running our economic system made you think the amount of people alive today are the problem, not them?Additionally, birth rates are deeply tied to wealth, so even to that extent the amount of people alive today is due to our broken global economic system.
(DIR) Post #AVEsbpTl7gvSy2ruRU by canusfeminacanis@mastodon.nz
2023-05-02T07:32:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik Erik, it is both. We do have the food and material resources to get through any number of crises, but the distribution is a whole other pathetic issue.Add to that the development of Agri practices to ensure land decreases in productivity and access .There are way too many people, too. Wild animals are suffering from too many people encroaching on their territory.It's never just one thing that causes problems.
(DIR) Post #AVEsbq62pLYCsmmU7M by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T07:50:30.431919Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
The entire population of planet earth could live in a US state like Wisconsin if they’d live in the density of New York City. Now imagine some walkable city superblock concept with plenty of greenery and nature and you got yourself a way to prevent any human interaction with most of nature at all.You are not giving any logical argument as to why you think there are too many people alive today. We have enough resources to feed them, yet hundreds of millions go hungry. We have enough resources to house them, yet billions are homeless.You truly think the issue lies with the people, not the distribution of resources?Humanity always had poor, always had hungry, always had homeless, no matter the amount of people alive. Yet you look at poverty, hunger, homelessness, etc. today and say the way to fix that is by reducing population size?The distribution isn’t a hard to solve issue. The issue lies within the capitalist incentive of our global economy to act in the interest of capital, not people. If our economy was focused on feeding people instead of making luxury products for the rich, we’d have zero people alive today still going hungry.Again, the monoculture nowadays commonly done in agriculture isn’t something humans have just decided to do - the profit motive forces each corporation and individual to do so. Additionally so much land is merely used to create food for animals, not people! Make veganism the norm, you can feed the world.Additionally, my argument that populations stagnate in growth the moment their country gets to a certain level of wealth (demographic change) isn’t discussed in your comment at all - by simply redistributing wealth we’d have a fixed, if not declining, number of people anyway.Now, veganism, zero homelessness, no poverty nor hunger, and redistristribution of wealth sounds a lot better than “decreasing population size” i.e. genocide.
(DIR) Post #AVEsbsTrxjnSHFwXWy by canusfeminacanis@mastodon.nz
2023-05-02T08:00:33Z
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@Erik You're the one arguing; I just know what happens when living beings feel crowded, and so agree with the point that yes, our distribution is inadequate, there are too many people for the planet.
(DIR) Post #AVEsbszQ4R29r6hjhw by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T08:03:42.566808Z
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No. If you imagine overpopulation as a literal feeling of “overcrowdedness” (which is a feeling you can sometimes have in car-centered infrastructure cities) then you’re not grasping the important aspects of it.The distribution of resources is inadequate. The resources planet earth could regenerate within one year could feed upwards of 20+ billion people. We do not need a degrowth in population, but a degrowth in our economy.
(DIR) Post #AVEsbtdpeBMNsRc0hM by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T08:35:43.029408Z
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@canusfeminacanis @ErikI don't know chief, I guess lower population would be easier, then again I have heard people (economics aside) saw how that could be a problem.I need to look more into it but it is very much an interesting topic I guess depending on what outcome you want the answer can vary extremely.@canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVEsvi4COK6hlpOPHk by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T08:39:21.184488Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikI think voluntary charitable work, smaller state could honestly help.I'm trying to live up to the former, by parting way with my savings I want to donate. 6K so far, just need to sit down, take a look at some charities (and we have some doing really good work here, I mean some kids making it into cricket teams and really good schools). I can go on about how huge the South African state is, but I would just be complaining - and they are not bad complaints but I ought to do something atleast.When I earn more I'll bump up the amount I put aside for donations. I won't find an excuse to not donate, I am priveleged enough to stay in my parents' house, I can save - least I can do is help my fellow South Africans. One child saved and given an opportunity is one enough.@canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVEyoNe4WDfs8H3ncG by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T09:13:43.323353Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I’m agreeing with you, people need to find a way to help others under the current system, I’m just saying the best solution would be systemic change so that poverty becomes impossible instead of having an economic system which incentivizes inequality.
(DIR) Post #AVEyoOJY20qqCuSvGS by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T09:45:14.300556Z
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@canusfeminacanis @ErikI agree with the first half but the system of capitalism is just human nature and we yearn for it. That doesnt mean I don't think good Judeo-Christian values shouldn't be taught in school, if anything education and the maintenance of a national curriculum is one thing I think the state should do, I thibk if we can return to tradition in that sense or just get back on track then we could maybe care more for one another.One thing that is perpetual in ZA atleast is, crime is bad, therefore avoid beggars, therefore we never can help them. I think this is wrong and I hope to change this, first step would be arming myself because in the case something goes awry I need protection but I want to be able to give bread to those who knock (and we do, but when my parents are home).I think the current system of economy is fine, infact I advocate for no social wellfare state, but rather private/private citizen. We can both do a lot, even if you disagree with how your heart of wanting to do what you can out of YOUR POCKET is the right idea.@canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVEzpliCco7F19Dafw by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T09:55:47.487069Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I don’t think capitalism can be called human nature - humanity has existed for like two hundred thousand years and capitalism for only 200.This video sums up that argument pretty well and suggests an alternative to what capitalism is: https://youtu.be/nbkMDb1jJCwAdditionally, even if capitalism was human nature it wouldn’t matter as dying of a preventable disease by the age of 7 was also human nature, yet we revolted against it.One can argue reproduction is “human nature”, yet buddhist monks exist that with determination revolt against many of such “human” desires.Many people always see the current system as perfect/normal/best, let us not forget that during / before the war for American independence against the British a majority portion of society argued that “true freedom” could only exist under a monarchy. I see the people who claim capitalism is God given human nature as very similar - no system is God given or “natural”, Homo sapiens is a versatile creature. Incentive structures can be created and destroyed shaping desires and behavior. “To look at people in capitalist society and conclude that human nature is egoism, is like looking at people in a factory where pollution is destroying their lungs and saying that it is human nature to cough.” Andrew Collier
(DIR) Post #AVEzz0CS82BYYblpEu by meso@asbestos.cafe
2023-05-02T09:58:22.590599Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@deavmi @canusfeminacanis @Erik i think you're simply equating a non-planned-economy with capitalism. and that's still wrong. to each according to his means to each according to the other thing
(DIR) Post #AVF0dZvmhTocxVK2ZE by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:05:11.216728Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs would be a rather socialist economy. A social market economy is still capitalism. Even if the government influences the economy or regulates, as long as the means of production are in private hands and a free market exists.I mean, the official definition (which usually isn’t something I care about) is: an economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit
(DIR) Post #AVF0jwczE8Tt5aZ6bg by meso@asbestos.cafe
2023-05-02T10:06:52.520194Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @deavmi @canusfeminacanis >A social market economy is still capitalism. yeah that's true. a socialist market economy is possible however.socialism/communism's definition is workers owning the means of production, so if the workers for example rule their workplace instead of a private owner doing that, then it is socialism
(DIR) Post #AVF0tWqfvcNK23XQPY by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:08:32.234099Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Yes! Absolutely. And I think that’s much better than capitalism and also fixes this issue systemically instead of relying on individualist consumer action for change.
(DIR) Post #AVF16IoFR91gFsUfaK by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-05-02T10:10:30.331198Z
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@Erik @canusfeminacanis The challenge here is that fixing these social and environmental problems as we see them today means fixating (pun intended) the current state of knowledge and enforcing solutions some people believe are correct today on all population.That has been already attempted, mostly in totalitarian regimes (because they were the only ones actually able to do such enforcement) and always failed disastrously as they missed some critical social or environmental dynamics.The thing is that in a dynamic system, if you try to control one particular variable, the system rarely complies. If you try to control against its current attractor, quite the opposite happens - continues to head towards the attractor, converging around the variable you control rather than adapting to your intentions.I’m not saying here that “inequality is good” or something like that, quite the opposite - I’m a huge believer in progress and social change. What the above paragraphs about dynamic systems mean is that any social change must start from changing the attractor, which in the context of the society can be approximated as a general attitude of the society.If the attitude of majority will be in favour of conserving space, energy and caring for others, the whole society will transform regardless of even extremely egoistic attitudes of some people. This objective requires an in-depth understanding of societal dynamic and the problem is that while in physics we’re well into 21st century, the social sciences are still kind of sitting in 19th century methods and concepts, which is precisely why we’re here where we are today.
(DIR) Post #AVF29p8vmH8jMJPXlo by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-01T18:36:21Z
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@Erik If you consider past centuries (Middle Ages), it did not make much difference to the world's resources whether wealth was shared evenly or other (it was very other). Even the rich could not do too much harm (ok, depleting the forsts around the Mediterranean WAS an effect of the Romans!), because mankind had not developed the technology to really harm in short term.Now, as we are so many, the same proportion of rich vs poor creates a problem: abundance is gone.
(DIR) Post #AVF29q5QGnvaHimFwO by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-01T19:21:11.958604Z
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The problem isn’t the people but the rich, then? Right? What you’re saying is that inequality in the past was worse or as bad as it is today, but back then, as there was “abundance” (even more slave labor in developing nations), it wasn’t affecting the depletion of global resources too much, right? So, my point still stands. If we would merely redistribute earth’s resources under a different, and much less unjust, economic system we’d have far more capacity for more people to coexist, a multitude of those alive today, as a matter of fact!Hence, the argument that the term “overpopulation” attacks the incorrect problem still stands, as it claims the population is the issue, not the distribution of resources which, if fixed, would mean the population was no longer the issue.
(DIR) Post #AVF29qiluVP4FlBgH2 by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-01T19:45:56Z
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@Erik The problem is that the industrial revolution has vastly increased the consumption of natural resources pp, as the cost of labor has tremendously increased vs the cost of resources.This is a blessing for many, however stressful for planet earth.To become sustainable, it is NOT sufficient to reign in the rich, but to become more modest for most in the "developed" countries.(Compared to those @ <$2,-/day, we ARE all rich, true!)
(DIR) Post #AVF29rWkufNykmZbBQ by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-01T19:49:59.259757Z
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100 companies are responsible for 71% of all CO2 in the atmosphere.It will be similar for the consumption of resources.Overconsumption is inherent to capitalism, just look at planned obsolescence and the amount of food thrown away.I’m all for postgrowth as economic growth has long been decoupled from people’s happiness or quality of life.My point is that simply hoping for people to become more modest is impossible, we need systemic change. However, I truly believe that our current level of prosperity can exist without any exploitation or consuming more resources than planet earth can regenerate (as the main reason we’re over consuming is our economic system, not something that people chose to do).
(DIR) Post #AVF29s7ygH9ycDzKCW by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-01T19:56:36Z
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@Erik I agree that our current level of HAPPINESS can be sustained without devouring the planet.But I also see that many won't voluntarily let go their cars etc.They DO choose that way.(Yes, advertisement supports such choice, but in the end, it is the individual who makes the choice!)
(DIR) Post #AVF29skGNvmiWxttsO by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T10:22:10Z
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@tropenfischBut what about our current level of freedom?@Erik
(DIR) Post #AVF2ajRN5UzFUWrp5c by hyolo@asbestos.cafe
2023-05-02T10:27:37.591966Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @meso @deavmi @canusfeminacanis what makes you think a free market can't result in equality and worker's control though? Left market anarchists argue that government-granted monopolies are where capitalism comes from
(DIR) Post #AVF2glAHabXeZpkSNU by meso@asbestos.cafe
2023-05-02T10:28:42.387254Z
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@hyolo @Erik @canusfeminacanis @deavmi that is what he believes, he was talking about social market economies which are just capitalism + welfare or whatever
(DIR) Post #AVF2wO1FPd4rQPyQKG by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T10:31:03Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik Freedom of what? Buying 60 kinds of soaps?Cars aren't gonna be 100% abolished anyway, since rural areas need them and they can be used for unusual travels or for transporting medium cargo for medium-long distances.The objective is to make so that one doesn't use or own a car because they don't need to, and make the remaining cars more eco-friendly.Also, still talking about cars, I argue that using them IS infringing on the freedom of others, mainly their freedom of not getting intoxicated with exaust and their freedom of not getting their houses (my house tbh) underwater (climate change)
(DIR) Post #AVF31tRc09maKvvnGK by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T10:32:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik I could also make your same argument about having the freedom for driving tanks to buy groceries
(DIR) Post #AVF3DgtuSplWuNnDMG by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:33:38.068302Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
The government sadly doesn’t grant monopolies their right to exist.Even if, who do you think buys out the government to do so?Technically, I agree with you, through many reforms that would limit or remove money out of politics, create incredible regulation and max. company sizes, create large oversight for collusion between the private sector and the economy, we could achieve equality and somewhat worker control over the market.However, realistically, corporations will defend their current corrupt system and will prevent such reforms from ever happening.Capitalism, so far, always resulted in monopolies, everywhere! It ain’t corporatism, it’s capitalism.I find a systemic change to the economy in which every corporation (or every corporation at a specific size) needs to be worker-owned / controlled in a democratic way, a far more long-term functioning alternative to capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AVF3QoLg5I31lw2N0q by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:19:20.297917Z
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But the attitude of the majority is already such!In Germany there’s a legal entity type that allows for democratic control (eG - eingetragene Genossenschaft / registered coop), which has the lowest insolvency rates, highest worker’s pay, least immoral decision making (usually local production only, no child labor, no slave labor, etc.)Give people democratic control over the means of production things will change systemically!What you’re saying is that individuals as consumers under our current capitalist market economy rarely CHOOSE to live more sustainably etc., but the issue is a far more systemic one. 71% of carbon emissions are created by 100 corporations alone, if we’d nationalize those companies and put them under democratic control we would’ve done far more for climate change than an individual choosing to use paper straws could’ve ever done.Climate change isn’t something one can solve through little steps one at a time, and our neoliberal policies atomizing and reducing people to consumers to “vote” with their wallet are enforcing that very wrong idea.People DO choose radical action against climate change or inequality. Our current system is just designed to not give them a voice and equates saving the planet to personally reduce ones quality of life.May I remind you that the “carbon footprint” was invented by British Petrolium as a distraction tactic to shift blame to consumers instead of them / a systemic issue?Or that Coca Cola switched from glass to plastic bottles only to the run ads about people being horrible for polluting the environment.Yes such systemic change needs majority support, but you must understand that a revolution ain’t easy to comeby, and even the French revolution didn’t have majority support - democracy didn’t have majority support.
(DIR) Post #AVF3QpB50BAGLM5Q8G by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-05-02T10:36:38.709939Z
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@Erik Well, the Green Planet Energy eG (former Greenpeace Energy) is an eingetragene Genossenschaft but I can’t see it having “least immoral decision making” if it’s been for years selling 90% Russian fossil gas while actively fighting competition from low-carbon nuclear power even outside of Germany, thus pleasing both Russia, fossil industry and climate change 😉we’d nationalize those companies and put them under democratic control we would’ve done far more for climate changeLook to your closest neighbour to the East: Poland coal mining is 90% state-owned and because of that it’s most susceptible to the democratic pressure of the people earning in the coal sector and willing to not only continue mining, but also continue all state subsidies etc. Democratic control doesn’t always mean “doing the wise thing”, it often means “doing the stupid thing because many people like it”.This part isn’t going to change without, once again, changing the attractor. So far the only way this has worked was through popular education and this is how we achieved massive progress in social, economic and scientific sectors over the 20th century. Right now we’re kind of going the opposite direction with all kind of superstition, anti-rationalism and pseudo-science being presented as just as reliable ways of thinking, on par with science and rationalism.@canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVF3ScNfYGBnEXpXfM by canusfeminacanis@mastodon.nz
2023-05-02T10:27:28Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @kravietz I hear you, Erik. But how people behave when they aren't supported in a community is different from how they behave when they are. The community is what starts the ball rolling.
(DIR) Post #AVF3Yhk2X75fb6CENM by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2023-05-02T10:38:27.448342Z
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@moffintosh @Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik Yeah, but driving an Abrams to Kroger or Publix would be so cool. :jahy_wow:
(DIR) Post #AVF3sKrvHdW4RyFD7o by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T10:41:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperSnekFriend @Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik I'm sorry but Mark 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(DIR) Post #AVF3u8dFkYKX4uF4oC by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:28:00.912546Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
In the French revolution and the American war for independence from the British the large majority believed that freedom could only be achieved under the god-given monarchy.Freedom is a term that constantly changes in definition, I believe future societies looking at our current time won’t believe that we are free.We oppress minorities, kill refugees, oppress LGBTQIA+, fund wars or coups.We may “elect” a government every four years, but for the rest of the time we are forced to work and participate under a dictatorship: corporations.You do not choose nor elect your boss. You have no rights in your company. Why? Why should you, and everyone else, be forced to participate in an economy you do not have democratic control over?I believe that is true freedom - freedom from work, freedom to choose who your boss is, freedom to not be forced to consume, freedom from capitalism - can only be achieved through democratic control over the economy.Once there are no economic incentives to oppress, subjugate, overthrow, coup, we will quickly realize how free humanity could’ve always been.
(DIR) Post #AVF3u9KV9kvPF2TcDg by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T10:42:19Z
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@ErikDo you believe we should be free to speak (except for threats of violence), believe, love (those of a similar age bracket), move (except into private areas), etc?@tropenfisch
(DIR) Post #AVF4JYBPtAUlYxL6Dw by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2023-05-02T10:46:55.594089Z
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@moffintosh @Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik I'm stupid when it comes to tanks, so I'll trust your judgement. :naruhodonotes:
(DIR) Post #AVF4LEH0sqlcOQl2O0 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T10:47:12Z
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@ErikWhen I speak of freedom, that is what I am referring to.No amount of "bUt DeFiNiTiOnS ChAnGe" is going to change that.I know that definitions are relative to time period and culture. I've been reading #AlbionsSeed and find the sections on "freedom ways" particularly interesting.@tropenfisch
(DIR) Post #AVF4RYhTqkrFU29i40 by LukeAlmighty@gameliberty.club
2023-05-02T10:48:17Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperSnekFriend @Hyolobrika @moffintosh @tropenfisch @Erik Also, it is the only safe way to travel through Detroit.
(DIR) Post #AVF4d5qkwO7NTqziHw by Curvin@poa.st
2023-05-02T10:50:27.729376Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperSnekFriend @moffintosh @Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik That would be the first tank ever created.
(DIR) Post #AVF4mDBB3lAMontV3o by zombiecide@polyglot.city
2023-05-01T18:51:08Z
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@Erik I read "overpopulation" as "if everyone consumed like me society would collapse immediately. I want other people to die so I don't have to stop consuming all the things"
(DIR) Post #AVF4u7IYoCDmtb7Jb6 by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:51:28.847714Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I love how Detroit is always brought up as “crime city” when southern states have much higher crime rates.
(DIR) Post #AVF6Bddxu2fA5d31Ps by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:07:53Z
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@SuperSnekFriend @Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik It's a WW1 British tank. The fact that it has 2 cannons an just driving it around wakes up the entire block makes it obviously superiorhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMKh-V34vFU
(DIR) Post #AVF6hvkE8hE1UnNI7k by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2023-05-02T11:13:44.479931Z
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@moffintosh @Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik >That mechanical cacophony as the Mark I rolls down the streetNow that is what you call mechanized hell beast. :miku_wow:
(DIR) Post #AVF6uKij6bx2QpaS36 by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:50:51.190970Z
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When I speak of freedom I speak of the ability to actually do the thing you’re talking about.It’s great if my government has a paper that says I’m allowed to move or work wherever or as whatever I want, but if I do not have the financial ability to do so then I am not truly free.In Germany education is free, even higher level education. That is freedom, that is the freedom of education / being educated.In the United States higher level education can easily cost $70k USD per semester, most people take loans anyway.That isn’t freedom. If I am born into a poor household the I am not free to be educated nor travel nor do many things my laws allow me to do!Freedom to me means ensuring that everyone at least has all their basic needs covered and can afford many of the luxury goods! I don’t want theoretical freedom, I want real freedom.
(DIR) Post #AVF6uLDZFwcZyU157Y by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:15:52Z
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@ErikThat's a good point but: if "freedom" means having the means to do something and not just being free from authority forcing you not to do it, doesn't that imply that everyone has the right to use other people's property to, say, speak? That would mean that, say, a Nazi could draw swastikas on your car or house, if they don't have one, and you would have to let them.Also, if the government guarantees "freedom" to do these things by having total control over the economy (which is what you think?), then they necessarily have a lot of control over society, which is antithetical to freedom.Imagine if there were no private forums or SNSs (not necessarily for-profit ones, just private), only a government-run one. How could you ensure freedom of speech online in case the government goes bad?Also, like you said, everyone has a different view on what freedom is. So, if there is just one entity in charge of the space in which you exercise that freedom, you are necessarily beholden to their views on the matter, even if they are not your views. Whereas, otherwise, you can pick and choose.@tropenfisch
(DIR) Post #AVF75r1XLJFBnvsYUq by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:18:03Z
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@moffintoshI wasn't talking about cars@tropenfisch @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVF7PBXtGcxExCEJFY by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:21:31Z
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@moffintosh"Freedom" needs to be actually defined. Otherwise people can just put "freedom to" or "freedom from" or "freedom of" in front of a sentence and claim that they have a right to it.>freedom? What about my freedom to enslave others? What about my freedom from insults wherever I go? What about my freedom to kill people I don't like? Checkmate lolberts@tropenfisch @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVF7i48t15k1UkXNLs by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T11:21:03.300791Z
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What? You’re completely arguing in bad faith and drawing conclusions from things I’ve never said.If the government passes a law or has basic freedoms to allow people certain things, they should also ensure everyone is capable of financially doing that thing, otherwise it’s not a law, it’s a privilege.Right to shelter? Privilege if housing can’t be afforded. Right to food? Privileged if the poor can’t afford it. Right to live in dignity? Well, guess what the poor can’t afford to do.It doesn’t mean that random new laws get passed that allow Nazis to do whatever you were arguing.The government and corporations are still separate entities, democratic control doesn’t mean state control. Democratic Socialism is easiest thing to switch to from our current society.
(DIR) Post #AVF7i4e596h93V8Hya by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:24:57Z
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@ErikI'm not arguing in bad faith, thank you. I just don't know anything about your particular brand of socialism.>ensure everyone is capable of financially doing that thingOkay. You're specifically talking about money, not a general assurance of ability. Got it.@tropenfisch
(DIR) Post #AVF7iko8O7gvoq9uTY by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:42:23.287490Z
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Average doesn’t mean all.Additionally, the only reason people stick to their jobs so much is because under capitalism you have the choice between having a job or perishing.If a universal basic income were to exist, or all of these coal miners were offered a pension, or training for a different job (such as the installation of solar panels or other green energy), then many more would choose to no longer work in that sector.You can’t really say people don’t want to do good if you’re systemically forcing them to do the bad thing!Same with automation, automation would happen much faster under socialism as the profits would go to the workers - not the company owners. A machine doing your job would no longer mean you using it, but rather you getting the same or more pay whilst having to work less. That is real progress.Capitalism actively stifles innovation and progress by having automation be against the interest of the people, so people revolt despite a machine doing your job day and night being much better than you having to do it.See, people would choose differently under a different system! We need to institute a different economic system without the profit motive, you’ll see everyone freely choose to do the right thing.
(DIR) Post #AVF7ilP0B3BLfBPLwO by canusfeminacanis@mastodon.nz
2023-05-02T11:07:03Z
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@Erik @kravietz You got one of the central points:conservatives tend to view people as immoral. Progressives don't. Results will, surprisingly, coincide with who's doing the beholding.Given decent options, people will do the right thing. They don't need strong-arming, they need better options.
(DIR) Post #AVF7ilx28WP7MjKWzA by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-05-02T11:24:43.063800Z
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@canusfeminacanis This split between conservatives and progressives could be explained by the belief in universalism prevalent among the former, while progressives focus more on diversity. From social and biological point of view, the belief in universalism (“everyone has the same values”) is a reductionist approach, while statistical diversity reflects the real world of biology much more accuratelyThe funniest part is that, of course, the very presence of this split (conservatives vs progressives) is also manifestation of this diversity. Conservatives, in line with their particular perception of the society, thus tend to position themselves as “correct”, while those who disagrees as “incorrect” 🤷♂️The logical consequence of the diversity is that a postulate like “given decent options, people will do the right thing” is, in statistical sense, incorrect: social diversity guarantees that there will be some people who will outright reject “the right thing”, and each of them may have different reasons for that, including completely irrational ones.Not that it changes the practical side much: the primary question is how to determine “the good thing” for all of the behavioural clusters in society (like “progressives” and “conservatives”), but then also how to accept the fact that there will be still some cluster that will reject any idea of “the right thing”, whatever it will be, and the society needs to live with them as well.@Erik
(DIR) Post #AVF7qGobmaxZ7Fxrua by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:26:26Z
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@moffintosh>Freedom of what? Buying 60 kinds of soaps?See second paragraph of https://berserker.town/@Hyolobrika/110298801960473085@tropenfisch @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVF8DipxlRz6gVmTtA by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T11:29:33.058461Z
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I’m not even arguing “the good thing for all”, I don’t even think we need to determine that. I believe if you let people democratically choose under an economic system where the means of production are democratically controlled, they will, more often than not, choose the moral action.If already everyone’s basic needs are taken care of, there’s no longer any hunger, any homelessness, etc., I think the progress of society from that point on will be much easier, hence trying to get to that point should be priority number one, realistically! What to do from there can be figured out once it is achieved and realistically doesn’t need to be our concern!However, thank you for your very philosophical contribution. I think your analysis is still very much correct, it’s just not the general direction that I was thinking this discussion to be going.
(DIR) Post #AVF8uY8XQLOhwxtIwq by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:38:25Z
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@Hyolobrika @Erik @tropenfisch doesn't that imply that everyone has the right to use other people's property to, say, speak??Also, if the government guarantees "freedom" to do these things by having total control over the economy (which is what you think?), then they necessarily have a lot of control over society, which is antithetical to freedom.As opposed to that control being shared by billionares, corporations and the goverment that they control via money and infiltration?A goverment, even at the current state, has a democratic mandate, which is even streghtened when money gets out of the way. Orivate buisnesses are basically inherited monarchies.Imagine if there were no private forums or SNSs (not necessarily for-profit ones, just private), only a government-run one. How could you ensure freedom of speech online in case the government goes bad?The same thing we do now when a goverment goes bad and corporations cave in because they want to keep making money. But I think you should also consider why govs go bad and how that can be fixed at a system level.Also, I reiterate that democratic accountability is stregthened without big money around, as above.So, if there is just one entity in charge of the space in which you exercise that freedom, you are necessarily beholden to their views on the matter, even if they are not your views. Whereas, otherwise, you can pick and choose.We're already in that situation now, with monopoly capital having control of the state. Might as well seize it so at least it's the people picking and choosing for themselfs instead of billionares choosing for them.
(DIR) Post #AVF90SJrxtvre60WQK by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:39:29Z
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@Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik Cut it because it was too abrasive
(DIR) Post #AVF9jgN0ZWWyFp2cbo by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:47:39Z
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@moffintoshHow was I abrasive?
(DIR) Post #AVF9xPLgea7hW9y5CK by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-02T11:50:02Z
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@LukeAlmighty @Hyolobrika @moffintosh @Erik Safe in Detroit?? 🤣 Several years ago, a colleague from the Detroit area has moved to our Vienna, Austria, office for 3 years, including his family with 3 kids aged 3-7.Before he returned, I asked him about the most impressive experience here in Vienna:"That I can have my kids travel on public transport unaccompanied, at any time of the day, without concern."I would rate such experience a lot closer to freedom than the "freedom" (= need) to drive.
(DIR) Post #AVFA9oUT0H4Yy4zS9A by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:52:23Z
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@Hyolobrika No, I, my phrase, was abrasive
(DIR) Post #AVFAFlJDkEKWq3ZBLc by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-02T11:53:25Z
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@Hyolobrika @Erik Talking about freedom, Immanuel Kant has made a crucial point with his "categoric imperative":ONE person's freedom cannot go beyond limting another person's freedom.And before anything else, freedom stands for freedom from harm (through others).
(DIR) Post #AVFAMIPFbQnVE2VDTU by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:54:38Z
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@moffintosh>?That has been resolved.> As opposed to that control being shared by billionares, corporations and the goverment that they control via money and infiltration?Just because I'm arguing against your proposed solutions, doesn't mean I'm in favour of the status quo.> The same thing we do now when a goverment goes bad and corporations cave in because they want to keep making money.Revolution? A solution of last resort, not a general solution for peacetime.Voting? Not an ideal solution, either. The minority who lose a vote should be able to have their own spaces run by their own rules, not just have to accept defeat.>We're already in that situation now, with monopoly capital having control of the state. Might as well seize it so at least it's the people picking and choosing for themselfs instead of billionares choosing for them.Or why not seize it and remove corruption?@Erik @tropenfisch
(DIR) Post #AVFAdF1VQxI1ekTasa by PapaPole@bae.st
2023-05-02T11:57:37.597730Z
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@zombiecide @BlinkRape @zombiecide @Erik its strange that all the people who are really concerned about overpopulation are almost always supporters of universal healthcare. its almost like they think a government committee should decide which people live and die instead of natural selection.
(DIR) Post #AVFAnCvs3vzG4Eaotc by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T11:59:29Z
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@tropenfischI think something similar for freedom to act.Every adult* should be free to act, but not to restrict others freedom. But restricting freedom to restrict freedom is fine. But restricting freedom to do the latter is not. And so on ad infinitum.*if I didn't specify "adult" I would be justifying paedophilia if the child "consents"@Erik
(DIR) Post #AVFBKmxd8ATxMbQcgy by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-02T12:05:30Z
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@Hyolobrika @Erik Why should only adults have the freedom to act - as long as they stay within the range defined by the Categoric Imperative CI?
(DIR) Post #AVFBagXqkhiy6AwxOq by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T12:08:23Z
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@Hyolobrika @Erik @tropenfisch Just because I'm arguing against your proposed solutions, doesn't mean I'm in favour of the status quo.What is your proposal then?Revolution? A solution of last resort, not a general solution for peacetime.Reformism was already attemoted by south-americans and eurooeans in the second half of the last century.The former got couped and shot, the latter half compromised and moderated itself to achive nothing, half was destroyed by outsourcing to the "third world".Voting? Not an ideal solution, either. The minority who lose a vote should be able to have their own spaces run by their own rules, not just have to accept defeat.The current state of things is a specific class minority ruling over the other minorities AND the majority though.Or why not seize it and remove corruption?Well that's basically a synonym. The only way to remove corruption is to keep money the hell away ftom politics and public administration, and given that capitalists regularly try to put it in to influence it and take control, the only way to keep corruption out is to remove their class
(DIR) Post #AVFCDduiT7xxERDopM by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T12:15:26.774552Z
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@canusfeminacanis @ErikI don't know if we "revolted", so to speak, we just saw it was natural and looked for a cure. I don't think that says much.I think we do that with anything, and under any system - capitalism however has atleast sped that up, and don't get me wrong with some research subsidies from the government - I am not totally against that.@canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVFCEvDDdghtAhUD8S by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-02T12:15:37Z
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@moffintosh @Hyolobrika @Erik If you want to remove the roots of corruption, you need to remove power (over people) => go for anarchy.Honestly, I'd be in favor for anarchy, if I had just the slightest hope it could work:- too many happily rely on others' to decide- even if 90% of the world went for anarchy, the remaining 10% could easily overturn itSo we need to have a ruleSo we need to deal with corruptionSo we need to strive for the least disappointing form of ruling.
(DIR) Post #AVFCKZ1H417G50ac6q by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T12:16:44.562557Z
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@canusfeminacanis @ErikIt becomes less freer a market if the government influences it - for better or for worse by definition.@meso @canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVFCNO8PzPoRBqHI2a by meso@asbestos.cafe
2023-05-02T12:17:15.529587Z
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@deavmi @canusfeminacanis @Erik and?
(DIR) Post #AVFCRhqGf0XDT9qZxQ by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T12:17:58Z
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@tropenfischChildren have a limited freedom which I haven't fleshed out yet, for the reason stated in the footnote.@Erik
(DIR) Post #AVFCV8hRGF27dSM2Ge by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T12:18:38.951215Z
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@canusfeminacanis @ErikWell I definately can disagree with crony capitalism. I won't defend that, an example being ZA where the state overpays private companies for their services.That goes against my minimal state principles. That's more corruption than pure capitalism but I am against it whatever we call it.@hyolo @meso @canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVFCWmvTBaragVhgIa by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T12:18:57.618740Z
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@canusfeminacanis @ErikSorry for my slow replies. Was working, on lunch now.@hyolo @meso @canusfeminacanis
(DIR) Post #AVFCawNhyN9lAVtMUi by dhfir@suya.place
2023-05-02T12:19:41.660108Z
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@Hyolobrika @tropenfisch @Erik >freedom to act must be restricted to adults, otherwise a form of fake consent I'm aware is bullshit might be imposed on them.honestly that argument is bull and it feels like you're half aware of it.
(DIR) Post #AVFCf3ZZB59sd8Ovse by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-02T12:20:26Z
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@tropenfisch @Hyolobrika @Erik If you want to remove the roots of corruption, you need to remove power (over people) => go for anarchyYou pretty much summed the issues with anarchism.However I shall ask corruption into what? Currently we see a state as corruot because it doesn't serve the general population and is instead infiltrated and controlled by capital.However, if capital is removed, who is left to corrupt the state? The people themselfs? Swaying it to favour the people?
(DIR) Post #AVFD57HM1KmzecJCqm by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-02T12:25:06Z
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@Hyolobrika @Erik Children have limited UNDERSTANDING of what it takes not to harm others. Fortunately, they are also quite limited in their ability to inflict harm.If parents take care of children, they will of course limit their practical freedom to act, to achieve the balance of "freedom to self" vs "freedom to others".But that has nothing to do with any general limitation of their freedom to act - as they grow to understand the boundaries, their practical freedom will expand.
(DIR) Post #AVFDNpmfI55Qtdsahc by tropenfisch@mastodon.green
2023-05-02T12:28:31Z
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@moffintosh @Hyolobrika @Erik What do you mean: "capital is removed"?I have recently accompanied two refugees to a city office and later told them that the officer had been REALLY kind. The immediate reaction: So we should bring her a present!(I quickly explained that this was an absolute no-go here)=> This is where corruption begins, with no "capital" involved.
(DIR) Post #AVFEa7rC1NVsNVQFEW by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T10:05:44.575279Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
I opt out of both. The control state needed to redistribute and limit where we can live is more dangerous the any other disaster that we might face (if any)
(DIR) Post #AVFEa8nKXE19Hocfqq by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T10:07:31.853793Z
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Democratic control over the means of production and redistribution is much better than having no control at all (or the neoliberal idea of “voting with your wallet” which is fundamentally unfair as individualist consumer action is the least effective method and it is always an unfair vote due to some people’s wallets holding billions and other’s having a few scraps).
(DIR) Post #AVFEa9mIsWn4Kv9MtE by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T10:29:30.509841Z
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We do not have the voting with your wallet idea, that is capitalism, which is in many ways the opposite of neoliberalism. Currently, companies survive mainly by using government to get special treatment and kill competition. But more fundamentally, real capitalism is the only system in a free society. What you describe requires near total government control and has never gone remotely well.
(DIR) Post #AVFEaARQPdgSOSOCzA by canusfeminacanis@mastodon.nz
2023-05-02T10:47:04Z
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@gvs @Erik Here's the problem with voting with your wallet: other factors enter in. I loathe our local supermarket, but it's close. I don't have a car. I have no alternative except for the limited bus service here. It stops running before I can go downtown.I really hate the Coca-Cola company. Regrettably, some of their products are far better than the alternatives, particularly in the sugar-free category.Humans are complicated.
(DIR) Post #AVFEaCjZt7OPVKtjYe by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T12:05:15.173568Z
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Not really, it works just like that. The location of the store is in this case it's appeal to you and you don't hate Coca Cola enough to buy either other brands or not drink cola at all.
(DIR) Post #AVFEaH4Hm4KkwicKOG by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T12:11:10.927861Z
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Individualist consumer action is the least effective method to bring change. Additionally “voting with your wallet” isn’t what the means of production being in private hands means, it also means corporations being able to invest billions without you having any control over it.Pharmaceutical corporations have no incentive to research life saving medicine, only medicine that saves lives in paying countries.Think of Juicero. Hundreds of millions of dollars invested - no one needed it. It was a meaningless tech product funded by corporations that have no idea how to allocate resources efficiently.Democratic control over the economy fixes all of the mentioned problems and gives people, as well as their will, a voice!
(DIR) Post #AVFEaHbFnUhmay2emG by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T12:15:56.406215Z
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Democratic control over the economy is a long way of saying communism. It gives control to bureaucracies who not only do not allocate resources well, but in the process tend to kill millions.More to the point, what is your democratic control going to do if I don't want to move to megacities or hand over the business I've build for over 10 years?
(DIR) Post #AVFEaINosvYN1alRTc by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T12:24:31.425352Z
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No, it’s a long way of saying socialism. Here are some definitions:Communism: A term describing a stateless, classless, moneyless society with common ownership of the means of production. “Communism” can also describe the revolutionary movement to create such a society.Socialism: An umbrella term used to describe social ownership of the means of production. Social ownership can include common ownership, state ownership or collective ownership. “Socialism” can also refer to an intermediate and transitional form of society between capitalism and communism featuring a Dictatorship of the Proletariat (sometimes referred to as “lower” or “the first phase of” communism).Means of Production: An all-embracing term that describes every non-human material factor involved in the process of socially useful production.Bourgeoisie: The capitalist class; the ruling class in capitalist society. The social class which owns the means of production and exploits hired labor. The buyers of labor power. This class is made up of a very small minority of the population.Proletariat: The working class; the class of people in capitalist society who, deprived of any ownership of the means of production, must sell their labor power to the capitalists in order to survive. The exploited class; the producers of surplus value.Exploitation: Exploitation is making use of some vulnerability in another person in order to use them to attain one’s own ends at their expense. Marxists specifically use the term to refer to the expropriation (theft) of the labor of a worker (via the extraction of surplus value) by the owners of the means of production. Capitalists make their profit from exploitation.Dictatorship of the Proletariat: A state of proletarian rule where the working class organizes to democratically control the means of production, defend against bourgeois reaction, and create the material basis for a gradual transition to communism. “Dictatorship” in this sense does not mean rule by one individual; Marxists view any state as being under the “dictatorship” of a class. This term is the antithesis of the “Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie” that exists under capitalism where the minority class rules society.State: The state, in Marxist terminology, is a mechanism for class rule. It is the primary instrument of political power in class society, consisting of organs of administration, and of force. A state of one kind or another will exist as long as social classes exist.The business you’ve built isn’t of much concern, one could imagine an economic system where only businesses of a certain size need to be democratized.Additionally democratically controlled ≠ state-controlled. A democratic economy doesn’t need centralized control, it’s very much possible to plan an economy even with individual corporations acting under democratic control.Capitalism kills hundreds of millions, whilst socialism increases quality of life, life expectancy, access to medicine, etc.: Economic development, political-economic system, and the physical quality of lifeRead the abstract: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.76.6.661Or download the entire PDF here: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.76.6.661Here is a nice section of the conclusion that I think summarizes it perfectly:Socialist countries provided a higher daily per capita calorie supply as a percentage of requirement than did the capitalist countries at a similar level of development. The difference between capitalist and socialist countries averaged 12 to 15 percent. Nutritional supply of all socialist countries exceeded the 100 per cent requirement.
(DIR) Post #AVFEaIyKhAlCqpqbOC by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T12:35:39.289023Z
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They are mostly the same.Secondly, we do not have capitalist countries today, we have neoliberalism, which has private ownership of production but government control over them (Mises made a good point in control vs ownership). Beginning with control over the currency supply.
(DIR) Post #AVFEaJeABeDkwZQ0ae by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T12:40:22.282314Z
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No, communism and socialism are very different.Socialism implies having a state. Socialism can exist even without a classless society. Socialism exists in a world with money!Democratic socialism is possible as socialism is merely an economic system, not a political.The German Supreme Court even checked whether a socialist economy was possible with Germany constitution / basic law and it is! Perfectly is in almost every EU country.Communism requires the abolishment of a state, socialism can perfectly continue to exist with our current forms of government.
(DIR) Post #AVFEaLvbhlMY1Fay3c by w@arachnid.town
2023-05-02T12:41:35.529046Z
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@Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs No it can't. At that point you're still renting from the government, workers don't actually own the means of production.
(DIR) Post #AVFF6b2753L08J0tEG by Cara@miruku.cafe
2023-05-02T11:31:51.255Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik@social.uden.ai I am free to choose my boss, I am free not to work, I am free not to consume, I can do all of that and I bear the consequence of each of those decisions, as every free man should. Laissez faire world, capitalism, is freedom.
(DIR) Post #AVFFsE7tYBaEzNQhii by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T12:48:47.432825Z
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The company type eG (eingetragen Genossenschaft - Registered cooperative) exists within Germany today. It requires the corporation to be run democratically. If the German government passes a law that each private company type (meaning GmbHs, UGs, AGs, etc.) are converted to eGs, Germany’s economy would be socialist, as every worker working for a particular company has democratic control over it, and the government continues to work as before.Now, if you think of a specific implementation of socialism, where everything is seized / expropriated by the state (which the worker still democratically controls) even that means “owning” the means of production. I’d be for a separate election for the economy involving lots of directly democratic actions, but again, those are specifics.What I’m mostly also arguing is that: currently the workers control nothing, under socialism workers have direct control over the economy. Even if everything is merely seized by the state, not all states are dictatorships, Germany ain’t, for example. Since you democratically control the government you democratically control the economy, it’s a huge leap forward considering the current state is having zero control.
(DIR) Post #AVFFsGNDCD1XxSbxs8 by w@arachnid.town
2023-05-02T12:56:11.474415Z
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@Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs Modern voting systems are hardly democracy. Direct/liquid democracy is really the only practical solution, but at that point there isn't much of a state to make decisions really.
(DIR) Post #AVFIVm9bAdxNj2DFA0 by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T13:09:25.061920Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Communism cannot exist without state, it ends the moment people are again free to own their stuff. Anarcho communism is a logical impossibility as you require the state to prevent private ownership.Socialism suffers much of the same issue. Most EU countries are more socialist the capitalist, essentially having a central bank precludes capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AVFIc9PXc8PZari3Lk by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T12:56:32.224239Z
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However, as an arachno-communist I know you aren’t satisfied with “better than capitalism”, so I agree with you. The abolishment of the state, class, and money need to follow. There are procedures and steps for that in place that I am not qualified to talk about lol.
(DIR) Post #AVFIcA2XH9bTXnxC88 by dhfir@suya.place
2023-05-02T13:27:08.843689Z
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@Erik @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs >arachno-communist
(DIR) Post #AVFJ0AagsZ4GCdNTxA by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-05-02T13:31:28.457199Z
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@icedquinn @Erik who knows if that's even true. We've decided to go the path of pouring industrial fertilizers on our crops and I've heard people claim there is no other way to achieve comparable yields, but it seems to me that a real study to compare the long term yield of a particular plot of land could be if not using industrial farming practices vs using those practices has probably never been done. It's an assumption because "fertilizer increases yield".There is also an absolute shit ton of food that ends up being wasted because it either isn't of high enough aesthetic quality or just can't be distributed before it spoils. Smaller farms that are closer to the demand might be able to better suit the needs of a local area even if they produce less just because it isn't tossed into a wasteful distribution network.
(DIR) Post #AVFKB2kqSDht2SsO2K by fynhv@friendica.opensocial.space
2023-05-01T17:49:12Z
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@Erik Not only the unjust distribution, but also the overuse of mostly the rich countries.
(DIR) Post #AVFKB3ZXPkFxZgas3E by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-01T19:59:56.993066Z
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Overuse that happens through a capitalist system. No store nor individual just decided they wanted to throw away so much food or begin the meaningless cycle of meat hunger (producing food for farm animals which, if directly fed to humans, could feed the entire planet 8 times over), but were forced to do so when acting in their own best interest.We need systemic change and can’t, or rather shouldn’t, just hope that people will stop consuming so much. That isn’t how it works when our entire economic system is built around consumption.
(DIR) Post #AVFKB4BT8ib7TKLAAq by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-05-02T13:44:38.123770Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @fynhv meat is a much more dense source of nutrition than corn, wheat, rye, or soy (common feed crops). The problem is not that we keep cows. The problem is how centralized the whole farming system has become and how much extra input is required for a large scale farm to operate. There are cattle farms that graze the cattle on natural grasses rather than relying on a feed lot. That meat turns out to be healthier for you too.We are omnivorous animals. Every inch of our body from the placement of our eyes to the organization of our digestive tract suggests we are predators. Arguing for the entire species to become vegetarian or vegan seems to be against nature. I for one will choose eggs and meat over bugs and soy any day. That said I raise as much of my own food as I can in my current situation, and I'm always looking for ways to improve that or supplement it without relying on the food distributed from farms that conduct business in ways I do not approve of.
(DIR) Post #AVFKCelgbdnXE22TEO by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T13:44:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dhfirYou have no evidence that I am lying about what I believe. Communicate in good faith please.@tropenfisch @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVFKHvlepV4ZOdXZ5M by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T13:34:30.330324Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I did not misspell a thing, @w is a spider (webb).
(DIR) Post #AVFKHwPMRspdNm7GyG by dhfir@suya.place
2023-05-02T13:45:54.469609Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs dammnit, here I was tring to remember what that spider friend's username/instance were again so I could cc them.
(DIR) Post #AVFKJwKhhOmjjEtIvY by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-02T13:46:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dhfirThis conversation is getting tiresome. Muting the thread.@tropenfisch @Erik @moffintosh
(DIR) Post #AVFKqAKRCNkUP08Iu8 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-05-02T13:52:06.193565Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @canusfeminacanis > Now, veganism, zero homelessness, no poverty nor hunger, and redistristribution of wealth sounds a lot better than “decreasing population size” i.e. genocide.sounds utopian to me but hey :shrug: I think you ignore a lot of human behavior thinking that if you just take stuff from people group x and give it to people group y then all the worlds problems are solved.
(DIR) Post #AVFNHxTilk1gZ3r6Rs by w@arachnid.town
2023-05-02T14:19:09.755083Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs @dhfir This is misinformation (I am an arachno-communist, however.)
(DIR) Post #AVFQkk8ZkWq9RrNkqu by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T12:25:34.038814Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Lmao, don’t worry. Being terminally online is only something I can afford doing whilst traveling on the train, I don’t expect any functioning member of society to be able to replicate my behavior.
(DIR) Post #AVFR2MmNKhWWDWOxUm by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T15:01:31.452384Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikI have an idea, what if the socialist-minded folk just form a co-op toghether. Then both sides are pleased. It's legal anyways, then they can control it.Freedom for everyone, the co-op can run democratically, whilst I could still work in a conventional company or be said conventional company's boss.@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVFR9fsOjEVPTNhfH6 by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-02T13:21:05.651127Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
I'm not advocating abolishing money, I'm advocating we abolish *fiat* money. Money is whatever two contractual partners agree on.That could be gold, bitcoin, monero or seashells.
(DIR) Post #AVFRA7adgqwBQPbsTw by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T14:50:52.207664Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
> profile picture is a spider > Name (“webb”) a reference to spider's homes > constantly posts pictures of themselves as a spider online> tfw “not a spider”
(DIR) Post #AVFRAAJNZTuhrkYdUm by w@arachnid.town
2023-05-02T15:00:10.997155Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs @dhfir > constantly posts pictures of themselves as a spider onlineI literally don't. I represent myself as a generic guy without eyes. I have never drawn myself as Webber. Other people have, not me. I just think he's a based character (and also he's historically important.)
(DIR) Post #AVFRAp73sBQEPQ6sUK by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T15:03:03.767523Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @gvsThis goes hard@w @canusfeminacanis @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVFRNVUe85JbKBBoNE by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T15:05:20.567323Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikGuys I am lost how did this socialist vegan fedi revolution turn into veganism.Smh, vegans have become more annoying than socialists, maybe this is our common ground @Erik (god please dont be vegan ;))@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @dhfir
(DIR) Post #AVFRXyiwJ1NAsRrtFw by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T15:04:21.617990Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I think we can all agree on one thing:Monero is good. Money shouldn’t be no government’s or anyone’s business.
(DIR) Post #AVFRYyJvI8CXuodms4 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T15:07:25.672316Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikYes we defs agree (and vegan bad ;))@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVFRao4GNhPahGBtI0 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T15:07:45.559709Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikWait, it should be my business but like in private if that is what you are saying@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVFSfYWLiCbZsf9kZ6 by dhfir@suya.place
2023-05-02T15:19:49.697377Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik he says, while sitting on an instance run by and named after the most infuriating vegan on fedi.
(DIR) Post #AVFY7ngNQyEAmc8NCS by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T15:06:08.798026Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I’m not a vegan (yet ;)
(DIR) Post #AVFY80LaLaJw3tVS64 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:20:59.366857Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @Erik😩😩😩😩@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @dhfir
(DIR) Post #AVFYACS0JkGQBBYUz2 by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T15:09:46.123202Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Yeah, bad choice of words.YOUR money should be YOUR business, and no third entity (government, corporation, or person) should be able to have oversight over, or be able to view your spending without your consent.
(DIR) Post #AVFYAeO4Rxkqp5vkjw by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:21:27.872746Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikAgreed@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVFYBieg4GFqLiCwmu by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T15:15:25.526476Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
Digital money should function like paper currency in every positive way.Sure there might be “good” reasons for the government to trace the spending of a criminal or whatever, but to set up a huge surveillance network that puts everyone in a panopticon merely for a few edge cases isn’t the way. Additionally, we know governments and companies easily abuse that ability even when such oversight was granted with good intentions.If someone is capable of logging into your PC and seeing your wallet, there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent them from seeing your balance, as with paper currency. As long as that isn’t given, no third entity should have any degree of oversight over your personal spending. If no bank can guarantee that, we need systems in place that make oversight impossible, such as Monero.
(DIR) Post #AVFYEKMArhi9rEnSRE by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:07.344698Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikAmen@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVFYFZebTZClah0lM0 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:20.801754Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @dhfirI know ;)@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVFYGDJO1s06aTONpw by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T15:21:04.884509Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Real
(DIR) Post #AVFYGDs7whn2KDe7zE by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:27.568513Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikReal@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @dhfir
(DIR) Post #AVFYGbHQumhMvMfA7k by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:32.265551Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikReal@canusfeminacanis @dhfir @gvs @w
(DIR) Post #AVFYHSF805LXBYzZOC by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:41.721171Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikReal@canusfeminacanis @dhfir @gvs @w
(DIR) Post #AVFYIItKFsOkTICPGS by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:50.382697Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikReal (hi @alex)@canusfeminacanis @dhfir @gvs @w
(DIR) Post #AVFYIja71Q4XFWPwZ6 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:22:55.503934Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @ErikReal@canusfeminacanis @dhfir @gvs @w
(DIR) Post #AVFYSh9usqK4dEukXA by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:23:56.086257Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deavmi @dhfir @Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs @w Well he isn't infuriating because of the vegan reasons
(DIR) Post #AVFYShnyTuMidTejyK by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:24:43.483326Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @colinsmatt11I like Alex. He is a topg.@dhfir @Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs @w
(DIR) Post #AVFYwBTHGJyX2e21VA by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:25:39.452730Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deavmi @Erik @canusfeminacanis @dhfir @gvs @w I don't hate Alex mainly because he's vegan.
(DIR) Post #AVFYwCD0WIYTKTQXmS by dhfir@suya.place
2023-05-02T16:30:03.776047Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colinsmatt11 @w @deavmi @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik honestly I first got pissed at him over cryptocurrency nonsense.
(DIR) Post #AVFZIpme3vhSRHtJc8 by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T16:31:06.076854Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dhfir @w @deavmi @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Nose-eaters' zipzaps? Or something else
(DIR) Post #AVFZIqH8Ea5Pxq9f8K by dhfir@suya.place
2023-05-02T16:34:09.289344Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colinsmatt11 @w @deavmi @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik ??? he posted a link to an article and claimed that crypto could solve the problem in question.I read the article and, at the end, found an explanation for why cryptocurrency was not a viable solution for them.I decided that this man was, quite clearly, some manner of imbecile.
(DIR) Post #AVFfH2HlD2GYMIyFeK by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T17:41:02.914358Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @dhfirI must say crypto is just better fiat but it isn't pegged to anything useful.A gold certificate would be more useful.@w @colinsmatt11 @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVFhZ47zIWotC47mzo by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-05-02T17:42:27.344720Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@deavmi @dhfir @Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs @w Honey is the superior currency than anything else.
(DIR) Post #AVFiQyc01QaHivrwlE by w@arachnid.town
2023-05-02T18:15:57.996199Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@littlefox @Erik @canusfeminacanis @gvs @dhfir Webber isn't even a furry, he's symbiotic with a spider (hence him saying "we" often.) The only fair argument for him being a furry is that he's technically in a constant state of being vored.
(DIR) Post #AVHPNET3cRWQvc6j7A by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-02T13:00:26.706460Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Well, then we agree. The current way the government functions sucks (yet it sucks less in Germany as there’s no gerrymandering or an electoral college), we either need incredible reforms (more direct democratic legally binding decision making on every level + getting all money out of politics) or a new system entirely (anarchism, etc.)I still believe that socialism can work today even with the horrifically incompetent government we have, but I would obviously still want that government to be reformed/changed. If we’d have socialism there wouldn’t be any corporations bribing government officials to do dumb things.
(DIR) Post #AVHPNF9F5bGZ2RqPrs by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-05-03T13:52:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik > If we’d have socialism there wouldn’t be any corporations bribing government officials to do dumb things.erich, the socialism will work for sure this time!i have the growing suspicion that you occasionally drop in "anarchy" into your sentences as means to sound hip for the girls. either you want armed thugs robbing people (which you do if you support socialism), or you don't.@canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVHPlpH4QN3u23EBea by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-05-03T13:56:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik > Even if everything is merely seized by the state, not all states are dictatorships, Germany ain’t, for example. every state is a dictatorship.> Since you democratically control the government you democratically control the economy, it’s a huge leap forward considering the current state is having zero control.the amalgamation of state and economy known as fascism! @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVHRjtjn3ioBCgrz7Y by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-03T14:13:40.195036Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I sent this comment to all my friends. This is a really good copypasta.
(DIR) Post #AVHRjuJwtHjR0pmrTs by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-05-03T14:18:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik well, it's a public post? happy that you and your friends have the day brightened by me :)@canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVHSWejzbaBSsjDKdM by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-03T14:15:40.137304Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
You are very smart! If there is one thing that defines fascism it’s the fact that the state has control over the economy (trust me, do not look into history and see Germany’s blooming free market between 1933-1945)!I mean, how would I know any better, I only run a holocaust remembrance museum in Germany.
(DIR) Post #AVHSWfZOWTIhS9GNkm by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-05-03T14:27:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Erik if government officials replaced all those uncomfortable for the government is free market, sure. then, germany wasn't even fascism but national socialism. fascism was in italy.i suppose if the market was state controlled the whole story would have turned out completely different!> I mean, how would I know any better, I only run a holocaust remembrance museum in Germany.that's like saying operating an art museum makes you a good artist while all it may do is making you a good curator. which is fine, but a completely different set of skills and expertise.be sure to forward the whole thread to your friends!@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVHSc7cbechftzMiga by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-03T07:46:13.260574Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Crypto like monero has value because it is private and can be quickly transported regardless of distance. Gold and silver remain the proven stores of value, but they aren't conventient to pay with in a global economy
(DIR) Post #AVHSc8Lyvv02AiaxPc by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T14:28:35.959236Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@canusfeminacanis @gvsHow is it not convenient to pay with gold?You get a certicate exchange it for the amount of gold. That is how it was done in the past and also far back in history as well.It also has intrinsic value, production value.Crypto doesn't, neither does FIAT. Crypto could only if it was backed by something but it isn't.@w @colinsmatt11 @canusfeminacanis @Erik @dhfir
(DIR) Post #AVHTqUaXA5V38joQL2 by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-03T14:35:00.296746Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I don't understand. If you agree that state control over the economy is facism (it is), why to you advocate socialism which requires the state prevent private ownership?
(DIR) Post #AVHV5TrwDaSFCtfDcm by Erik@social.uden.ai
2023-05-03T14:46:20.521774Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
State control over the economy isn’t fascism.A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.There are many aspects to fascism, governmental control of a CAPITALIST FREE MARKET ECONOMY is one of them.Socialism is the complete opposite. If you truly think there’s no difference between socialism and fascism you should begin questioning why fascists first came after the socialists and communists.
(DIR) Post #AVHV5UX3khLdGQu3ii by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-03T14:49:30.447963Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Government control and free market economy are mutually exclusive...100% free market would have 0% government control which does not exist at the moment. The degree to which markets are free is the only discussion and for example in the EU, that is a low number.
(DIR) Post #AVHW0NjPi3uag6oE9A by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2023-05-03T15:06:36.376441Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Nobody hates socialists more than other, different socialists.The Trotskyites and Stalinists are both unquestionably socialist, but all Trotskyites were executed by the Stalinists.The "two minutes of hate" against Emmanuel Goldstein in George Orwell's 1984 was specifically based on the intense hatred of Trotskyites by Stalinists.Therefore, the argument that fascists couldn't be socialist because they hate other socialists is a bad argument.
(DIR) Post #AVHXdLWPxV6B4asEzo by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-05-03T15:24:51Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Erik Because they didn't like the competition in totalitarian market segment.@w @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVHXgzugF0n9DHxoBs by fcktheworld587@social.linux.pizza
2023-05-03T15:25:31Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sj_zero @w @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs @Erik if you need reasons that fascism is not socialism, look to Daddy Fascism, himself - Mussolini.
(DIR) Post #AVHa9lioHdORVPG4jQ by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2023-05-03T15:53:07.294757Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Well yeah, former socialist Mussolini created his new socialism with blackjack and hookers so he had to come up with reasons why his socialism totes isn't like their socialism.Here's a great video on the topic that has many references to primary sourceshttps://youtu.be/v-VZJnLZvIQ
(DIR) Post #AVHad0Ix8wxl8E6WdU by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T15:58:24Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sj_zero @w @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs @fcktheworld587 @Erik Fascists: we are not socialistsSocialists: they are not socialistsLolberts: they both use the color red and think that individualism is cucked: they're obviously the exact same
(DIR) Post #AVHalVcgaQsia2OE3k by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T15:59:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gvs @canusfeminacanis @Erik Who do you think makes the gov act this way, if not the people with the biggest wallets?
(DIR) Post #AVHbEUF4nck4hCAFFI by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:05:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gvs @canusfeminacanis @Erik Democratic control over the economy is a long way of saying communism.YesIt gives control to bureaucracies who not only do not allocate resources wellProoaganda muchbut in the process tend to kill millions.Source: the black book of communism. You know, the one dismissed by it's authors which counts dead nazi soliders as victims and injects 20 thousand here and there to reach a cool numberMore to the point, what is your democratic control going to do if I don't want to move to megacitiesDude did you even think about this question for more than a sec before writing it?or hand over the business I've build for over 10 years?Who built it? If it's only you and you alone, there's a discussion to be made in your favour, but if you have employees, they have a right to own what they have produced and worked for to it's fullest
(DIR) Post #AVHbHEeTDk49DBLvQe by fcktheworld587@social.linux.pizza
2023-05-03T16:05:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sj_zero @w @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs @Erik there are similarities, but the particularities to the manner in which things are organised play important roles in power dynamics on a systemic level. I understand the argument, but it is ultimately wrong
(DIR) Post #AVHbNdR3zKERoZ8K9I by fcktheworld587@social.linux.pizza
2023-05-03T16:06:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@moffintosh @sj_zero @w @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs @Erik fr
(DIR) Post #AVHbNxeunXCCXJlfW4 by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2023-05-03T16:06:52.286135Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
The German fascists called themselves socialist. It was right in their name.
(DIR) Post #AVHbOQCChMSd2fYeI4 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:06:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dhfir @w @colinsmatt11 @deavmi @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik lmfao
(DIR) Post #AVHbYOjuy2dLQC5Idk by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:08:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deavmi @w @colinsmatt11 @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik @dhfir Gold value isn't nearly as stable as it's propped up to be. And even then just pegging money to it won't stop inflation. See any inflation case before the gold standard being abandoned (ex: Weimar Germany)
(DIR) Post #AVHbZ5Upzz7Y1sMMbY by fcktheworld587@social.linux.pizza
2023-05-03T16:08:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sj_zero @w @moffintosh @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs @Erik Hitler has stated explicitly that he did this simply because socialism was popular in Germany at the time; that would grant them additional popularity among people who didn't understand the distinction; and that National Socialism was not, in any way, socialism
(DIR) Post #AVHbj1qQQmPBbDCIm8 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:10:42Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I have an idea, what if the socialist-minded folk just form a co-op toghether. Then both sides are pleased. It's legal anyways, then they can control it.We europeans tries that in the second half of the last century. In a capitalist market economy, coops risk extinction 90% of the time, as the capitalist can offshore production and have access to venture capital
(DIR) Post #AVHbrQDRhdnJVBy1qq by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:12:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@moffintoshSo they get outcompeted and fail?@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVHcDRvG2QtnALxn9M by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:16:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sj_zero @w @canusfeminacanis @bonifartius @gvs @fcktheworld587 @Erik He clarified every singke day of his life that his "socialism" wasn't anything like anyone else used the term. He even privately decried that he shouldn't have used the word in the party name.
(DIR) Post #AVHcdFkxtTMExlSAF6 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T16:20:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Often. It's cheaper to offshore the work to slave child miners in congo than pay an employee his full wage.With that advantage (and financial capital), private companies can outcompete cooperatives with lower prices and by investing more in machinery to produce more and/or better commodities.It's not a case that the sectors where cooperatives are still around are sectors which are difficult to automate or offshore, like supermarkerts, art restoration, managing state archives (like in my mother's case) etc
(DIR) Post #AVHibc6ASHw7OvyKDQ by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-03T14:31:49.968249Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I added in a global economy. I can pay someone on the other end of the globe in minutes with Crypto. That is harder with gold. But I do agree on the value, Crypto is not backed by anything but trust and fiat is backed only by government violence
(DIR) Post #AVHihStHbQJma5jf1s by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T17:28:52.274662Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@moffintosh @w @colinsmatt11 @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik @dhfir Yeah, but it’s still inherently valuable that is my point. It can actually be used to produce a good, a good which someone may very well value. Conductors and many more.That’s what really matters to me.
(DIR) Post #AVHilUlSZsbdYDzwXo by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T17:29:35.986639Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Well, then your coop should try harder.Stop giving up and put effort into your own ideas that don’t infringe on tax paying individuals or their liberty to trade. That’s my take. Most people, sadly are lazy.
(DIR) Post #AVHng88XmMObhB3ZCK by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T18:24:36Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Boy sure I can outbit using child slave miners in congo
(DIR) Post #AVHtIm6q6ssiRWVQau by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-05-03T19:27:34Z
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@fcktheworld587 for something "not socialism" they did a large amount of socialist things like subsidized vacations for good boys, medals for having many children for the state, collectivized recreational programmes etc. guess it's pure coincidence.@sj_zero @w @moffintosh @canusfeminacanis @gvs
(DIR) Post #AVHton3G8sTCdF666K by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T19:33:26Z
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@bonifartius @fcktheworld587 @sj_zero @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs medals for having many children for the stateSource?subsidized vacations for good boys, medals for having many children for the state, collectivized recreational programmesAlready scratching the bottom of the barrel? Is that all you have? A couple of completly ideologically irrelevant practices?By your standard, a table and a bird are the same thing as they have at least one flat surface and stand on pole-like slim structures when on the ground
(DIR) Post #AVI4gq5M4scxDiUMue by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:35:15.511592Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I don’t see how child slave labor aligns with liberty. Try grasping harder, that isn’t what I said under my points.
(DIR) Post #AVI5fzy1x3uNX6E3xQ by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T21:46:18Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Coops under capitalism aren't viable because they get outcompeted by capitalists who use vrutal tactics such as child labourThis isn't what I was talking about
(DIR) Post #AVI5lNnGnDl2sRlBYW by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:47:17.262622Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I believe in civil liberties which implies I don’t believe in child labor. If you didn’t know, now you do :).With that in mind. go ahead and co-op.
(DIR) Post #AVI5qvboUozbCX2tSS by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T21:48:16Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I don’t believe in child labor
(DIR) Post #AVI5tuRxGI1wTWr8HA by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:48:49.814754Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik These reactions are funny chief ngl
(DIR) Post #AVI5v0uKjn8QnEekwy by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T21:49:01Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I mean I don't belive in gravity either by I'm talking about the real world, not libertarian Narnia
(DIR) Post #AVI5wl6ST90OM79xqK by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:49:20.775592Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik ?
(DIR) Post #AVI6Hap5swncYOyL9U by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T21:53:06Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Capitalists will use brutal tactics such as child labour whatever you like ot or not, which makes coops non-viable for most stuff, as they get outcompeted
(DIR) Post #AVI6Kr3bz2R9lvJmpE by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:53:40.693319Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I am a capitalist and I don’t believe in child labor being legal anywhere. What is your point now sir?
(DIR) Post #AVI6Xv5OJf9G20Ne3U by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T21:56:03Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik ...am I just being trolled?
(DIR) Post #AVI6ZlQbC9qienBBwG by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:56:23.929790Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I am being sincere man, we may disagree but I am being sincere. I am not trying to dupe you.
(DIR) Post #AVI6eqAB18sen4v1Zg by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T21:57:18Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik https://berserker.town/@moffintosh/110306953890673004
(DIR) Post #AVI6ievUjmxR6As95s by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-03T21:57:58.537878Z
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@moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I am lost now, are we still conversing?
(DIR) Post #AVI77Hja6PkEPQ2h1c by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-03T22:02:27Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Dude you can't moderate capitalism for long. It has a structural need for growth.Ask any european left-wing party: we tried for 30 years, and all we got was capitalism just exploiting the "third world" more at first and then a massive kick in the balls with Thatcher and the rest. Social services and welfare that was built in that period has been dismantled for the past 40 years
(DIR) Post #AVIACRDoYSaL92Kfyq by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-05-03T22:36:57Z
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@moffintosh @gvs @canusfeminacanis @Erik the people with the biggest psychopathic egos and smallest consciences. Under capitalism they use lawyers and police to harm and kill you. Under communism they use gunmen directly.Capitalism has to make a profit. That imposes some slight restraint on the amount of evil it can do - too much evil stops being profitable. If all the customers are dead.... no profit.Communism will continue to do harm well past that point.
(DIR) Post #AVJ3WlDnOvIwRY1kKu by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-05-04T00:56:56.670137Z
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@deavmi @moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Oh Minnesota is passing a bill making it child labour practically legal. Dome others states are supposed to have something similar as well.
(DIR) Post #AVJ3Wm00Vfrwr4aFU0 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-04T08:56:56.546397Z
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@colinsmatt11 @moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I heard of this
(DIR) Post #AVJ5PUHw9xiRo6ck2S by gvs@rebelbase.site
2023-05-04T09:01:10.718629Z
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There are capitalists that support that yes, in practice under socialism that is often also the case. To put this entirely in one camp is unfair.
(DIR) Post #AVJ5PVaPKm5JpgH0T2 by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-04T09:18:00Z
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@gvs @w @deavmi @canusfeminacanis @Erik There are capitalists that support that yes, in practice under socialism that is often also the case.Boy you just made that up to play the "both sides" card
(DIR) Post #AVVJzTObAbxdHkbM7U by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-10T06:57:56.651147Z
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@colinsmatt11 @moffintosh @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik I mean this isn’t weird
(DIR) Post #AVWFyWlOxSJymYWMT2 by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-10T17:47:40.112664Z
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@moffintosh @canusfeminacanis @moffintoshI'm in the third world boy. I'm exploiting by my coie government not my capitalism.Look uo Tripartite alliance and Load shedding, educate yourself sir. I LIVE in a third world country.@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVWGpJv9RBsaIbFrZQ by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-10T17:57:12Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik How has that anything to do with my comment above?
(DIR) Post #AVWHMKXW9qGZm4wOQa by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-10T18:03:03.293745Z
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@moffintosh @canusfeminacanis @moffintoshYour reference to Europe somehow abusing third world contries when the reason my third world country is, well third world, is because of our own leadership posts independence, NOT Europe.Cry more.@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVWNKFDfZAxuQ72tAO by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-10T19:10:01Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik Dude I'm quite sure my country (italy) personally invaded your area in 1936 and colonized it. And that still doesn't take into consideration "neocolonialism".Also, how any of this is relevant to "you cannot contain capitalism, as it needs to grow"???
(DIR) Post #AVWQD1gHnrm6GbgFcG by deavmi@gleasonator.com
2023-05-10T19:42:20.392051Z
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@moffintosh @canusfeminacanis @moffintoshMans failing to read.No Italy tried invading Ethiopia. Your knowledge of your own countries military history (for colonialism) and Africa in general is showing.The door is right here mate, I'll show you out.(And it is relevant, I just explained)@w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik
(DIR) Post #AVWa377PjNQZmEHVpI by moffintosh@berserker.town
2023-05-10T21:32:35Z
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@deavmi @w @canusfeminacanis @gvs @Erik No Italy tried invading Ethiopiatried instead of didimplying we didn't succedOk Mr. Troll, but you explicitly said: is because of our own leadership posts independenceYou yourself said that you were, in fact, at a certain point in time, conquered and obtained indipendece at a later point in time.