Post AVDSMBiHtet5KIaLUe by williampietri@sfba.social
(DIR) More posts by williampietri@sfba.social
(DIR) Post #AV8MHxhQUGf7Bnz5ai by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T01:59:57Z
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The clear message I am getting from Bluesky is that black people felt unsafe on mastodon. Black Twitter was a huge part of what made it special, and it's been notably absent on mastodon. I will be sad if mastodon loses to a less-open alternative because it couldn't figure out how to be welcoming to everyone.
(DIR) Post #AV8MIFUGLwpOMBxpZY by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:31:35Z
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Some of the responses to this tweet are extremely emphasizing that the problem is coming from inside the building.
(DIR) Post #AV8ZcgMnQLAkuzXsBs by stopthatgirl7@famichiki.jp
2023-04-29T03:57:32Z
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@seldo A lot of black folks got chased off the platform back when people were first looking for a twitter exit ramp - I know the first post I did saying I missed quote tweets, I had the Mastodon HOA showing up to lecture me about how bad they were and how Mastodon wasn’t like twitter. It’s like, we get it, you like your country club. A lot of old school Mastodon folks were so averse to any kind of change they ended up running Black folks, who tend to innovate social media spaces, off.
(DIR) Post #AV8Zch0942eEt1xIWW by andthisismrspeacock@tech.lgbt
2023-04-29T04:08:39Z
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@stopthatgirl7 @seldo The only thing I'm gonna add to this thread, and I'll probably regret doing it, is this:Long time Masto users will eagerly tell you about how this platform was designed by marginalized people and therefore has integrated anti-abuse and anti-harassment features.#Black people KEEP ON SAYING that these features are not enough and not working for them.I don't know how to fix this, but I'm 1000% sure it's a problem. And no matter what kind of non-cis-het-whatever person you are, if you're making excuses and not fucking LISTENING, that's a problem.#BlackMastodon #PleaseDontGiveUpOnUsYet #SomeOfUsWantToBeBetter
(DIR) Post #AV8ZchqbuycDVkVCIi by d2r2@masto.ai
2023-04-29T07:33:40Z
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@andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo Newbie here. Can you share what anti-abuse and anti-harassment features are integrated into Mastodon? Honest question. #BlackMastodon
(DIR) Post #AV8ZciJgAtrqxu6Pbs by andthisismrspeacock@tech.lgbt
2023-04-29T04:15:42Z
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@stopthatgirl7 @seldo Actually, no. You know what? Fuck that. Bomb me with excuses all you want. The fact is that for the entire time I've been on Mastodon, that's like 3 years now, #Black folks have been saying that our tools are not fucking working for them. Who are you gonna believe, Black folks or... your own random assumptions? If we, as Mastodon people, really believe we want to build this community, we had better fucking listen to what Black folks are saying. If they are being subjected to (and I've seen it) horrific abusive shit and Masto-admins can't or won't stop it, the next stop is the rest of (LGBTQ*) us so we better fucking take this criticism seriously.#BlackMastodon #Solidarity #MaybeNobodyElseCaresButIDo
(DIR) Post #AV8ZlQ8h7twJCD7GSW by edgeoforever@mastodon.world
2023-04-29T07:36:19Z
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@d2r2 @andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo blocking a person and an entire instance are good tools. Less than that, muting, less boosts visible.
(DIR) Post #AV8aepBdhaJOo3ucRk by d2r2@masto.ai
2023-04-29T07:45:28Z
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@edgeoforever @andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo Thanks. I guess I should have seen that. And it makes sense that given that Mastodon is decentralized, the tools to curb abuse should be (must be) decentralized, which blocking does, albeit after the damage has been done. I'm thinking that as or more important than blocking is boosting positivity and promoting community-focused instances. Is there a #blackmastodon focused instance, for example?
(DIR) Post #AV8eTpKDFO5Trmvwqe by edgeoforever@mastodon.world
2023-04-29T08:29:10Z
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@d2r2 @andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo not an instance that I could identify. Someone should start one. I understand is fairly simple if you know your tech. Another thing: there was an instance which turned Nazi. It was isolated by all other instances. Admins of each instance can make those decisions.
(DIR) Post #AV8f6CvLxGMA3tbhWi by d2r2@masto.ai
2023-04-29T08:36:04Z
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@edgeoforever @andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo I agree that community focused instances would be / are great. Ultimately, we'll all be our own instance. Setting up a server is easy. Managing it takes time and commitment. But that will change as tech develops. When our phones are more powerful than today's servers and the software is simplified, we'll all be our own instances and build our communities even more organically.
(DIR) Post #AV8fbT6hpuxnEJp8Hg by pmroman@home.social
2023-04-29T08:41:44Z
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@edgeoforever @d2r2 @andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo I been here for a short period of time, so excuse my ignorance... what's exactly the problem?
(DIR) Post #AV8vl9stl8cfm40Xb6 by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:07:02Z
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@seldo I’m certainly curious how/why. There is a lot of “this is how it is” crap here but I figured that was mostly me following the more nerdy audience.
(DIR) Post #AV8vlAmCRWrIXZshnM by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:08:46Z
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@StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke has been talking about it a lot but basically: open, vicious racist harassment and inadequate moderation.
(DIR) Post #AV8vlBVZip9eoJ6wWO by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:12:03Z
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@seldo @mekkaokereke as opposed to…Twitter. Cmon now I don’t really get that. And I also just don’t get the constant need for others to intervene. Use the moderation tools and block.
(DIR) Post #AV8vlCDX5OJh0dg32O by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:14:27Z
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@StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke this is an extremely white guy response to the problem.
(DIR) Post #AV8vlCrwf8dv1yaK1o by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:17:32Z
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@seldo @mekkaokereke I’m sure it is but I am LGBT so not full top of the privilege chain lol. It just doesn’t make sense to me when the alternative is there still being used while also advocating for literal Nazis and we’re sweating little details because the other one isn’t perfect.
(DIR) Post #AV8vlDUEMnGewiUthg by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:18:11Z
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@StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke the level of racist harassment against black people is not a "little detail".
(DIR) Post #AV8vlE8dwXasy3PAh6 by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:20:25Z
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@seldo @mekkaokereke it’s worse than Twitter?
(DIR) Post #AV8vlEo7SKlr2goILI by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:21:44Z
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@StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke yes. Much worse.
(DIR) Post #AV8vlFUIvUVz9WXz60 by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:25:23Z
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@seldo @mekkaokereke that strikes me as very odd and also disappointing. So, how does blue sky improve that? You know, where there are no tools or moderation from what I understand?
(DIR) Post #AV8vlG3Op0aUuMy0nY by DDJavanne@disabled.social
2023-04-29T04:29:23Z
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@StevenBarnhart @seldo @mekkaokereke Steven, I think a better question is how does Mastodon improve so that Black people feel safe.
(DIR) Post #AV8wIlFFsHBjCbUJ8a by StryderNotavi@aus.social
2023-04-29T02:35:32Z
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@seldo @StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke Is this on particular instances? Given the proactive and transparent approach I've seen towards moderation from the instance admins I've conversed with, as well as the explicit choice to avoid having search and implementing quote tweeting precisely because they're vectors for harassment I'm quite surprised to learn something like this wasn't dealt with.
(DIR) Post #AV8wIlpPhq6z0kPBUu by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:36:34Z
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@StryderNotavi @StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke I too was surprised and deeply disappointed to recently learn both how serious and how invisible the harassment was to white people because of how reply visibility works on mastodon.
(DIR) Post #AV8wImXN4PH1D4yI0u by alwayscurious@infosec.exchange
2023-04-29T03:19:36Z
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@seldo @StryderNotavi @StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke Harassment is disgusting and completely unacceptable. That Mastodon has gotten worse than Twitter is extremely disappointing. What changes could be made to stop the harassment?
(DIR) Post #AV8wInPboketvILbYO by jdp23@indieweb.social
2023-04-29T04:30:44Z
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@alwayscurious It's not that Mastodon has *gotten* worse than Twitter. https://techpolicy.press/the-whiteness-of-mastodon/ looks at the long history of Mastodon's whiteness.[For those who were #onhere in late November, if you haven't seen that post before it's very likely a sign that you're not following many Black people -- or people who boost Black people]As for what changes, @mekkaokereke has a good post on what allies can do as individuals to help. https://indieweb.social/@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io/109454206897441903@seldo @StryderNotavi @StevenBarnhart
(DIR) Post #AV9LZZurkIY7qM4Cga by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-04-29T02:27:12Z
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@StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke so far it has done it by being invite only. Remains to be seen if it can stay safe. This competition is only just starting.
(DIR) Post #AV9LZag0v0GOCa7rAu by barney@mas.to
2023-04-29T02:46:27Z
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@seldo @StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke Also, I think the sentiment you observed was not that Mastodon is worse than Twitter for the Black community, but that Mastodon is worse than Bluesky (so far).That's awful. I want to stay here, and I want Black Twitter to come here with us.I guess it's up to all of us to make this a welcoming community for everyone. I hope I can learn how to do that. I'm following #BlackMastodon, boosting posts, and reporting every example of racist harassment I see.
(DIR) Post #AV9LZbGshvko2vNIdk by davidaugust@mastodon.online
2023-04-29T09:29:23Z
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@barney @seldo @StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke it is likely events have overtaken this conversation: Bluesky has un-mitigated racism already.One example: https://mastodon.social/@atomicpoet/110277868319866639
(DIR) Post #AV9LZbsoQu5xwZ7alM by barney@mas.to
2023-04-29T14:47:29Z
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@davidaugust @seldo @StevenBarnhart @mekkaokereke I'm not on Bluesky, but I've read that they are rushing to deploy blocking. So that's good.I don't know whether Bluesky's centralized moderation team is more or less likely to be effective than the Fediverse's community of admins. However, it's my understanding that Jack picked Musk to take over Twitter, touted Musk as some kind of brilliant visionary, and made the Twitter deal happen. I definitely do not trust Jack.
(DIR) Post #AV9R1tIVmNRRphRl6O by edgeoforever@mastodon.world
2023-04-29T17:33:07Z
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@d2r2 @andthisismrspeacock @stopthatgirl7 @seldo maybe this one : hachyderm.io
(DIR) Post #AVDSM1Qu7R2ZRUNK0e by scott@carfree.city
2023-04-29T02:46:41Z
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@StevenBarnhart this is a really frustrating response and illustrates exactly the kind of dismissiveness that makes it so unwelcoming. Listen more. You were given a link to someone who's written about the problem extensively so "not getting it" is on you, just be quiet if you don't have something helpful to contribute here please.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM39xhOg0nWSosa by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:49:06Z
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@scott I won’t be quiet it is my process for learning. You don’t have to reply or even pay attention. There was no dismissal it was asking questions to learn more. The ONE person linked is not enough as they seem to be negative about literally everything they say.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM3gZk8lSQfiriK by scott@carfree.city
2023-04-29T02:51:17Z
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@StevenBarnhart oh that's rich. So first you deny racism exists on here then when someone shares their experience you blow it off because they're being "negative." Maybe getting regular vicious racist replies just for existing on Mastodon while Black is an experience that is... negative? Just a thought!
(DIR) Post #AVDSM4ALxQaFv1ee80 by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T02:52:38Z
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@scott please leave the examples to actual Black people experiencing them. They don’t need you to speak for them. Also am not sure where I ever denied racism existed wtf.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM4fY5RXNTmFYki by mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io
2023-04-29T03:22:58Z
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@StevenBarnhart @scott No, we do.What Scott is doing is fine. The rest of the Black folk on here see comments like yours constantly, and don't engage, because it's exhausting to respond, and there are so many of you. And because even if we respond to homework demands to "prove it!" that never turns into any meaningful action by the people demanding that proof.So we greatly appreciate people like Laurie and Scott. It doesn't change your mind, but it does show Black folk support.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM5Cs5YBz97qAgy by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T03:59:05Z
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@mekkaokereke @scott if you get exhausted at people who don’t understand asking questions to understand and just maybe be able to help or improve, I don’t know what to tell you. But virtue signaling and complaining are definitely easier so keep at it!
(DIR) Post #AVDSM5n1v77ExGl33I by scott@carfree.city
2023-04-29T04:04:05Z
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@StevenBarnhart The answer is nothing. Say nothing instead of being yet another "helpful" virtue signaling racist.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM6R5WB9sxVV2US by StevenBarnhart@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T04:08:00Z
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@scott say nothing. Yes, take your own advice. Wouldn’t want to exhaust you. Please stop harassing me now before I have to report you.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM6ylUy64dxFvyy by scott@carfree.city
2023-04-29T04:09:12Z
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@StevenBarnhart Stop trolling Black people on here. You think it's so annoying to hear me, one person, talk back to you, imagine being Black and getting 15 "helpful" white people demanding explanations and proof of racism every day like you're doing.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM7YvKX1KS6AoLI by Setok@attractive.space
2023-04-29T13:01:23Z
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@scott I don't feel @StevenBarnhart, or anyone else, is stating #racism doesn't exist (even here). It's just more difficult to fathom how it could be more prevalent here than Twitter or anywhere else, and not covered through blocks and other moderation.I've seen many discussions like this and frequently they just end with "You're white, you don't get it, screw you", which honestly isn't very helpful when trying to understand the issue. Often people ask questions to understand, not dismiss.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM84TREG21ww0WG by williampietri@sfba.social
2023-04-29T15:50:57Z
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@Setok @scott @StevenBarnhart You generally see that when a white person is engaged in tendentious, argumentative behavior. The "change my mind"/"prove it to me" routine.The unfortunate truth is that racism is common, enduring, and obvious. So too is the white effort to deny that. A lot of white people work hard not to see racism. There is almost never a point in trying to be "helpful", because they don't want help seeing the problem. They want to silence the threat to their world view and their ego.If you care to learn more, here's a good paper going into the details of it: https://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/view/249
(DIR) Post #AVDSM8jayL9Q5UAqcC by Setok@attractive.space
2023-04-29T16:13:22Z
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@williampietri @scott @StevenBarnhart I’m the last person that would say racism doesn’t exist. I’ve seen it personally. I would just find it surprising that it would be particularly prominent in Mastodon (especially compared to other social networks). Mastodon to me seems, if anything, particularly woke. I’m sure it exists here too, but I feel the response has often been anything but helpful when someone has asked about it.
(DIR) Post #AVDSM9KojwvPwvaZdI by williampietri@sfba.social
2023-04-29T16:30:17Z
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@Setok @scott @StevenBarnhart Yes, white people often find the existence of racism surprising. I imagine you can work out some reasons why.Barnhart apparently blocked me for "virtue signalling". (Which I think is funny; way down in the comments is a bad place for that.) But his example here is useful. His response is a very common one for white men in discussions of racism.Are you beginning to see why people aren't "helpful" to argumentative jerks and white skeptics? It's because they don't want help. They may perform interest or neutrality a bit, because that fools credulous whites (and maybe themselves). It's a waste of time and energy to help them.I see a lot of white people expecting black people to educate them. That is, to do free labor for white people to make up for white ignorance of white misbehavior and harm. I don't think that expectation is "helpful". Do you?
(DIR) Post #AVDSM9q0rxsXVgBUG0 by Setok@attractive.space
2023-04-29T17:14:42Z
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@williampietri @scott @StevenBarnhart I’m not surprised to find the existence of racism. I would just be surprised it is more widespread here than other social media, given the type of people who frequent Mastodon. So it’s reasonable to want evidence of such a claim. Again, not that it exists, but that it is particularly widespread here.
(DIR) Post #AVDSMAV8P4lvZDQKLw by williampietri@sfba.social
2023-04-29T17:21:37Z
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@Setok @scott I note that your "reasonable to want" sentence is heavily abstracted. What I think you're actually saying in this context is, "it's reasonable for random white men to expect/request/demand evidence of black people's experiences of racism from black people". With a possible side of "and if they don't get it, performing continued disbelief is justified". Did I get that right?
(DIR) Post #AVDSMB8845xpW9fT8K by Setok@attractive.space
2023-04-29T17:32:45Z
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@williampietri @scott I guess it’s up to you and others if you can be bothered to respond to those requests. I just frequently find usually in these discussions people get accused of privilege or whatnot without really replying. I do think it’s fair to assume that Mastodon would not have more racism than elsewhere. Happy to be wrong about that, if that is demonstrated to be true, but I think one shouldn’t assume claims will just be accepted on hearsay.
(DIR) Post #AVDSMBiHtet5KIaLUe by williampietri@sfba.social
2023-04-29T17:35:01Z
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@Setok @scott You didn't answer my question, Kristoffer. Perhaps you missed it?
(DIR) Post #AVDSMCPtHXlXVWzASO by Setok@attractive.space
2023-04-29T21:23:50Z
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@williampietri @scott the ‘Did I get it right?’ question, you mean? I thought it was rhetoric. But obviously my answer would be no.
(DIR) Post #AVDSMCw9LbZP7a4vjs by williampietri@sfba.social
2023-04-29T21:29:32Z
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@SetokOk. That's not obvious to me. How would you expand your very abstract statement to be about the situation at hand?@scott
(DIR) Post #AVDSMDVFF7dusQUxRQ by Setok@attractive.space
2023-04-29T21:52:09Z
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@williampietri @scott I’m struggling a bit to figure out what you are referring to. The situation at hand is that it has been claimed that Mastodon is particularly racist compared to other social media. That may be the case, and it would be good to understand it, but it would also need evidence in order to disect the situation. Bluesky might be protected due to it being closed and with 100s of times fewer users. Difficult to gauge longer term.
(DIR) Post #AVDSMDz1SPSiMmQjr6 by williampietri@sfba.social
2023-04-29T22:15:10Z
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@SetokYou claim I that when I tried expanding your very abstract statement to make it concrete that I got it wrong. This post is the one I'm talking about: https://sfba.social/@williampietri/110283253183790228If I got it wrong, how would you expand it correctly?