Post AV8OpPeRmcglLTfYFk by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AV8MFnYxCiGTAizQmW by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T04:59:57Z
1 likes, 5 repeats
Jack Dorsey explaining exactly why no single company should own a social media platform.
(DIR) Post #AV8MFpKqc8AYfYPC4W by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:02:37Z
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But Jack Dorsey also still prefers that Elon Musk own Twitter instead of a bank. Which is a wild think to say knowing what we know now.
(DIR) Post #AV8MIENqSK6GvzxBvk by olavf@spacey.space
2023-04-29T05:03:32Z
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@atomicpoet also Jack Dorsey realizing SM can't go live without a block option. If that's not obvious, maybe he shouldn't have a social media platform.
(DIR) Post #AV8MgcGhIwmpxgEphw by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:06:21Z
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Call me crazy, but if I was in Jack Dorsey’s position, I would have converted Twitter into a consumer-owned and worker-owned co-op. Sell it to everyone who uses Twitter and works on it. That model works for many successful companies.
(DIR) Post #AV8N7Zs2KMX8LNYkOu by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:11:51Z
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I just asked Jack Dorsey why he doesn’t donate towards helping ActivityPub. Will he reply? Because I really want to know 🙂
(DIR) Post #AV8NxlaC1j2Dj86BrE by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:16:51Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Here’s how Jack Dorsey want to monetize Bluesky:1. Subscriptions 2. Ads3. Commerce/Transactions
(DIR) Post #AV8NxnEHu8hWplrizY by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:22:00Z
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Jack Dorsey says he doesn’t believe a company should own a protocol platform and distribution. Glad to hear he regrets Twitter. Sooo… when will Bluesky connect to multiple nodes?
(DIR) Post #AV8OC14XEay7ow5OF6 by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:24:43Z
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My sides 🤣
(DIR) Post #AV8OaHpgZSKqkhiHXk by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:27:17Z
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At least Jack Dorsey doesn’t want to run Bluesky through a DAO.
(DIR) Post #AV8OaIejVfAVJ1b36u by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:30:28Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Jack Dorsey says if AT protocol has a CEO, it fails. I agree. I guess Bluesky should decentralize soon.
(DIR) Post #AV8OpPeRmcglLTfYFk by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:33:05Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
Jack Dorsey doesn’t want AT protocol to be capable of DMs. That means they’re probably not coming to Bluesky either.
(DIR) Post #AV8PGqSCEyasI41Hoe by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-04-29T05:38:45.301412Z
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@atomicpoet Good thread.
(DIR) Post #AV8PRJzHI3gEmbUMz2 by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T05:39:08Z
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Here’s what I don’t understand: why does Jack Dorsey pretend that ActivityPub doesn’t exist?
(DIR) Post #AV8PVRqxzF8uKxZLZQ by fcktheworld587@social.linux.pizza
2023-04-29T05:41:23Z
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@atomicpoet "It's your fault for believing I might have had any integrity to start with"
(DIR) Post #AV8U8t8Wsj7M45qVcW by dside@mastodon.ml
2023-04-29T06:33:18Z
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@atomicpoet a borderline conspiracy theory I'm wondering about is whether Nostr was created solely to prevent the development efforts in decentralized social media from gathering around ActivityPub. In a "divide and conquer" kind of way.
(DIR) Post #AV8auCpe4VZKU6xWc4 by yuki2501@hackers.town
2023-04-29T05:46:41Z
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@atomicpoet Easy: Because it's become an existential threat to his business, just like Linux against Microsoft.Jack doesn't want to participate in a distributed, open world. He wants an empire he can control.
(DIR) Post #AV8i364dGeDLoG9ijo by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-04-29T09:09:07Z
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@atomicpoet First of all, he explains why one shouldn't make his company public and let the markets choose what this company does or doesn't do.
(DIR) Post #AV8img5kCUGOY4PVom by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T09:17:19Z
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@dside @atomicpoet I think you are onto something here.
(DIR) Post #AV8izu1rh0OFXUtzcG by miss_s_b@witches.live
2023-04-29T09:19:38Z
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@dside this @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AV9YQcjrBJSZOXygpE by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-04-29T18:56:03Z
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@atomicpoet What is "AT protocol" ?
(DIR) Post #AV9YbdgbzxgtWGiF5k by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-04-29T18:58:01Z
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@niclas The protocol that Bluesky uses.
(DIR) Post #AVAb2ooH8wQ8u6LS3U by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-04-30T06:59:58Z
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@atomicpoetI don't get why he couldn't have made Twitter decentralized and FOSS while he ran it. This is why I don't trust him or #BlueSky.
(DIR) Post #AVCZfbVki6BxMNy2eu by Susan_Larson_TN@mastodon.online
2023-04-29T17:47:21Z
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@atomicpoet Based on his support of Nostr, #Mastodon and #ActivityPub should have nothing to do with him. Nostr, and quite likely Blue Sky wants to make it impossible to ban or remove a users access for violating server or network policies. This is a recipe for rampant hate and bigotry, along with harassment and hate speech. Something twitter seemed designed to encourage from the very start.
(DIR) Post #AVCZfcBaCZeVS7XRrM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-01T05:54:03Z
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@Susan_Larson_TN"In its latest update, Bluesky has added Thread Muting, so that you can mute notifications of conversations in which you have been mentioned. A few days ago, Bluesky was updated with content moderation for the first time. Users can now report a post as spam, hate content, copyright infringement, or illegal."https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/21/bluesky-moderation-new-features/Nostr is a totally different situation. In a P2P network there are no server mods and everyone is their own moderator.@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVCa6OtbinD83Mu2wi by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-05-01T05:58:51Z
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@strypey @Susan_Larson_TN Nostr may not have server mods, but they definitely have relay mods. And yes, they can ban you.
(DIR) Post #AVD34YqCfjq6zNmmYq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-01T11:23:31Z
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@atomicpoet> they definitely have relay mods. And yes, they can ban youAre these relays like the Pubs and Rooms in SSB?@Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVD3LvVXeQFMDBOzNg by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T11:26:37Z
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@strypey who is reviewing these reports? Who is responsible for these decisions?@Susan_Larson_TN @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVD6VCkjChA6AGcZQO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-01T12:01:56Z
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@rysiek> who is reviewing these reports? Who is responsible for these decisions?Good questions. No idea yet. But the existence of these features makes me skeptical that...@Susan_Larson_TN> Blue Sky wants to make it impossible to ban or remove a users access for violating server or network policies@atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVD7Pa7bVP80rJCgoC by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T12:12:05Z
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@strypey I hope you're right. But my reading of the ATproto docs — with "speech", "neutrality", and "protection from bans" mentioned front-and-center, while moderation does not even seem to be considered — makes me doubt it.@Susan_Larson_TN @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVE3edxRJu8oRQKt8K by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-01T23:04:44Z
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@kichae> they want to be able to label toxic accounts and give users the ability to filter them out on the client endDepending on the implementation, that sounds like a good feature. Some people in fediverse would love to be able to subscribe to a blocklist, so they're not relying entirely on their admins to screen out Bad Actors.> putting the burden entirely on the end userIt also puts the *power* in the hands of the people using the network.(1/2)@atomicpoet @rysiek @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE3sRG7KY6j6weNRw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-01T23:07:14Z
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@kichaeDon't get me wrong, there's definitely a place for server-level moderation, particularly for communities that are more likely to be persistently targeted by Bad Actors. It will be interesting to see if this is a thing in AT if there are ever >1 instances.(2/2)@atomicpoet @rysiek @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE4BNwvrJvSLhi9B2 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T23:10:34Z
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@strypey what I worry about is that on fedi, there are two layers of block: - account block - instance block / defederationAdmins/moderators block specific users, and if many are coming from specific instances, they get to block whole instances. Thus raising the cost — in very real terms (domain name, for example) — of allowing misbehaving users on an instance.I don't see how that cost can be raised on BlueSky, even with "labels-based blocklists".@kichae @atomicpoet @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE59lcUywCT8Wwh7o by Susan_Larson_TN@mastodon.online
2023-05-01T23:21:32Z
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@strypey @kichae @atomicpoet @rysiek On the Mastodon web interface of an official server, there are several options available to manage problematic users. You can mute, block the account or even their entire server, report, or even filter users into a category where their messages will be automatically hidden. The moderation process is generally very efficient on official servers, with actions taken within seconds. However, on unofficial servers, results may vary.
(DIR) Post #AVE6VzXlzhF0e4tekq by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T23:13:38Z
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@strypey what's stopping a harasser from setting up a new account and continuing their harassment? Once they do, they have to be *again* labeled by someone and added to the blocklist. And again. And again.On fedi every fedi admin knows or learns fast there's a trade-off between open signups and potential for abuse, which might lead to defederations. So people tend to keep their house in order, or the house gets put in quarantine.@kichae @atomicpoet @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE6W0L32Uel6tx0Yi by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T23:17:02Z
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@strypey on BlueSky, at least based on my reading of the protocol, all moderation will be per-account. No cost to having sockpuppet accounts, no cost to creating new accounts once old ones get labeled and added to blocklists.Meanwhile, somebody has to maintain these blocklists. Somebody has to label these posts. This is real work, that now has to be done with a per-account resolution, instead of per-instance. That's the "burden on end user" mentioned by @kichae. @atomicpoet @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE6W0zScEyz8ErHY8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-01T23:36:47Z
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Thanks for the clarification @Susan_Larson_TN.@rysiek> on BlueSky, at least based on my reading of the protocol, all moderation will be per-account. No cost to having sockpuppet accounts, no cost to creating new accounts once old ones get labeled and added to blocklistsAh, I see. I agree the lack of server-level moderation is a problem. Is this an unavoidable downside of full account portability? Is there any way for a protocol to enable both?@kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVE6W4VTXfNG2OrOMq by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T23:24:41Z
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@strypey I'll add one more thing to this: fedi's model allows for somewhat effective moderation (no question it needs to improve!) while at the same time allowing for pseudonymity.You can be pseudonymous on a reputable instance. Nobody will ask for your phone number, "real name", etc. because as long as you behave, there is no reason to. And if you misbehave, either you get booted off of the instance, or the instance gets defederated from.@kichae @atomicpoet @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE6W69DROkz7wSdwu by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T23:27:31Z
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@strypey effectively, instances on fedi are "proxies" for trust and reputation. You trust an instance to behave and if you see misbehaving users, you expect the instance to deal with them. Users can remain pseudonymous though. I suspect BlueSky will struggle with it greatly because there is no such proxy for trust and reputation. It seems attached to the user account. And since creating a sockpuppet account is faster than moderating it… yeah.@kichae @atomicpoet @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVE707Dq0hEB9Bw71c by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T23:42:12Z
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@strypey I don't think so, no. But as I keep saying, I would love to be proven wrong.Yes, I believe this is an unavoidable downside to having full account portability with no moderation power put in the network's nodes (PDS's in case of BlueSky).Basically, choose two: - full account portability - real pseudonymity - effective moderationLet's call it "rysiek's triangle of moderation sadness".@Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVECnvZo59p9HLmeOW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-02T00:47:16Z
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@kichae> It also speaks to them wanting to allow bad actors to flourish thereSome people say the same about us, when they learn there's no centralized moderation layer in the 'verse. Maybe we just don't understand how moderation works in AT yet? I'm willing to give the BlueSky folks the benefit of the doubt, at least until they're out of beta. Particularly because Jay was one of us (@arcalinea) before she became CEO there, see:https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmdFrru4PyHzXGZztEPnYToBR3QovD7fkC1HSyty22LzfD@atomicpoet @rysiek @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVIErBw6gt4PQWjpRI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-03T23:29:07Z
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@rysiek> Let's call it "rysiek's triangle of moderation sadness"I knew there was one of those 'choose any 2' triangles there! I just couldn't think what the third side was. Thanks for this insight.@Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVIe8f95qEtbnNEwYy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-04T04:12:23Z
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@rysiek> I believe this is an unavoidable downside to having full account portability with no moderation power put in the network's nodesHow does the Zot/Zap/Streams network resolve this with Nomadic Identity?@Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet #Zap #Zot #Streams #NomadicIdentity #moderation
(DIR) Post #AVKJUNLqyGjqG0dmSm by miklo@soc.citizen4.eu
2023-05-04T09:17:01Z
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@strypey @atomicpoet @rysiek @kichae @Susan_Larson_TN If Zot/Zap had become more widespread then the problem in moderation would have been similar: https://zotlabs.org/page/zot/specs+zot6+nomadic+identity .But... #nomadic #identity, after all, does not have to be built into the protocol to be practically usable. If we base it on domain ownership and the server handles account creation on the user's domain ( #BringYourOwnDomain ) then we pretty much have it done (still a matter of migrating posts but that's already a small problem then).And such a thing is supported by e.g. the #takahe project, compatible with mastodon api.
(DIR) Post #AVKJUOIhRToHCWAmBc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-04T23:30:22Z
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@miklo> If we base it on domain ownershipThis would be fine if every person got one domain name that they don't have to pay for. But as things stand, tying identity ownership to domain ownership forces people to pay protection money to a third party every year, or they lose their identity, and their posting history becomes invisible. This is a minor nuisance for the middle classes, but a major barrier to working class people.@atomicpoet @rysiek @kichae @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVKJmXd9UbcpLjOUkq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-04T23:33:36Z
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@counterinduration> Basically an identity can be blocked over a network of instances by invalidating the identityDid you read the full thread? Particularly the three posts starting here?https://mstdn.social/@rysiek/110295949945964012@rysiek @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVLf38PqmkVwGZsyu0 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-05T15:06:41Z
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@strypey as consider this very rough around the edges, though. It's more of a feeling than a well thought-through rule.There are many more dimensions/sides possible that might be relevant here. For example: global consistency. Or is that included in "full account portability"? 🤔 It also hand-waves away the fact that "effective moderation" is somewhat hard to define. Effective for whom?But I do think the general direction is roughly correct here.@Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVLfENVd0eHUGKwwAy by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-05T15:08:38Z
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@strypey basing account identity on domain identity also breaks "real pseudonymity", as owning a domain name usually requires some form of ID and traceable money transfer.@miklo @atomicpoet @kichae @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVNhqIilqdRidpEAMa by miklo@soc.citizen4.eu
2023-05-05T06:37:43Z
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@strypey @atomicpoet @rysiek @kichae @Susan_Larson_TNThe $4 (regular renewal price) per year for a low-cost domain (e.g. .uk) is an unaffordable amount for working class people ?Note that one domain is often enough for an entire family, a group of friends, an organisation....
(DIR) Post #AVNhqJRn9FSUtSI7XM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T14:47:26Z
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@miklo> The $4 (regular renewal price) per year for a low-cost domain... at which registrars? I've been paying much more than that for my domains.But the price is not really the point. Imagine having to pay each year to renew other forms of ID, like birth certificate, passport, or driver's license. Would anyone accept this?@atomicpoet @rysiek @kichae @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVNhtLN0SJKxj3UxBA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T14:48:00Z
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@miklo> one domain is often enough for an entire family, a group of friends, an organisationNot if you're using them as unique identifiers for portable accounts. For that, you need one per person.@atomicpoet @rysiek @kichae @Susan_Larson_TN
(DIR) Post #AVNmWmTa0eWOu6dL6G by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T15:39:58Z
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@rysiek> "effective moderation" is somewhat hard to defineTrue, but you know it when you see it, and particularly when you see it lacking ;) @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVNn5CroOZtGbENp8y by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T15:46:11Z
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@rysiek> imagine a protocol (ATproto might be that, reading the spec) where an instance/node/"personal data server" admins have no say and no tools to stop specific identities from being hosted on their nodesNostr relay admins can ban identities, but that doesn't help if spinning up new identities is effortless, as you pointed out earlier.(1/2)@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVNn9LweaLT5ufcos4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T15:46:56Z
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@rysiekIdle thought; is there some way MAC addresses could be boiled into account creation? Such that you could see that accounts were coming from the same device, without being able to extract the MAC address or any other data about the device?(2/2@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVNniqF9vbTM19Cf9U by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-06T15:53:18Z
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@strypey I can trivially change my MAC address, there is even a GUI for it in my network management interface in my OS.@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO6S4xTrbglrReemm by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-06T15:54:38Z
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@strypey also, this is the wrong place to look for solutions in. A person having 50 well-behaving accounts accounts should be allowed to continue having 50 well-behaving accounts.@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO6S5jKzfyCFs2sNc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T19:23:11Z
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@rysiek> A person having 50 well-behaving accounts accounts should be allowed to continue having 50 well-behaving accountsAgreed. I'm suggesting a way of identifying patterns of activity deriving from a single source, in case those 50 (or 500 or 5000) accounts are not well behaved. Not just in a speech sense either, this could be useful in mitigating DDOS attacks from within the network, for example.@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO6uNrp9exEc7VQ7k by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-06T19:28:15Z
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@strypey using MAC addresses makes no sense for any of that.@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO7DmyU1w5Bz8sE1Q by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T19:31:50Z
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@rysiek> I can trivially change my MAC address, there is even a GUI for it in my network management interface in my OSOk so it's not foolproof, but could it work against anyone who (like me) didn't know that was possible or how to do it? What if you also boiled the IP address into account creation as well, so you'd need to change both MAC and IP between each account creation to evade pattern recognition. That would add cost, right?@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO7PnYLhmqNFpNNDc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-06T19:34:00Z
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@rysiekIs there a way to tie an identity to that MAC address, such that it couldn't be used if the MAC changed? So you'd have to change back to the correct MAC address to use each sock puppet. That would add more cost.(2/2)@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AVO7S0UAapu5wXTTE0 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-06T19:34:22Z
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@strypey no. MAC addresses are not useful here in the slightest.they can be set by the user, they are not available to the server, and are not really available to the browser.It makes zero sense to use MAC addresses in this context, at all.@counterinduration @Susan_Larson_TN @kichae @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AsD0MqitI0z4TSYdJw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-03-19T09:51:27Z
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@atomicpoet > Here’s how Jack Dorsey want to monetize BlueskyCome on Chris, that's not a fair summary of what Dorsey is saying there. He's talking about how the ATProto network will cover its costs, not BS-the-company.Asked how people could build sustainable businesses around the fediverse, most people would list the same 3 options. Because those are the 3 proven revenue sources for online services so far.
(DIR) Post #AsD0wpjkQwI5qB7Jtg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-03-19T09:57:58Z
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@atomicpoet > why does Jack Dorsey pretend that ActivityPub doesn’t exist?I guess he, like others, is banking on either ATProto or Nostr winning the current social protocol race, and the AP network being rendered as irrelevant as Diaspora.But I think he's picking the wrong horse. WordPress.com and FlipBoard have added get another a new wave of accounts and activities to the fediverse, and Ghost, and now Tumblr, are on the cusp of doing the same again.