Post AV4urHXLLNpAetRSCG by Savera@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by Savera@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AV4stc5Bj4Nt3FFxa4 by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T12:51:32Z
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Over the next few weeks, I'm going to TRY to accurately measure my power consumption doing daily work tasks on my big tower PC, the Steam Deck, and the HP Dev One laptop. (Using a Kill-A-Watt P3).ALSO? Gaming power consumption comparisons between my desktop PC & the Xbox Series X, both at 4K resolution.I expect it will be an eye-opening experience and I'll never turn on my tower again. This will undoubtedly branch off into all kinds of software testing too. YES, I'll record & share data...
(DIR) Post #AV4t4P6OKNr3yhxrpw by NO_PULSE_XBL@mastodon.world
2023-04-27T12:53:36Z
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@killyourfm ooof that makes me nervous to even think about. Especially when I’ll leave my PC on and go downstairs and do something else for half the day. 😭💀
(DIR) Post #AV4urHXLLNpAetRSCG by Savera@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T13:13:35Z
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@killyourfm on my end, my power company provides hourly usage report for long periods of time, years.
(DIR) Post #AV5BSQ7K0J0pFd08lk by jonr@xn--lofll-1sat.is
2023-04-27T16:19:35Z
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@killyourfm Please do. I can't be the only one that thinks needing 600W+ for an average pc is getting ridiculous.
(DIR) Post #AV5DqmqNMGLGawozzs by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T16:46:29Z
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@NO_PULSE_XBL same here. It should be enlightening!
(DIR) Post #AV5FZhdTfTrPQalnjE by trezzer@social.linux.pizza
2023-04-27T17:05:43Z
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@killyourfm I'll not spoil the details for you, but I actually found that the standby power usage when not doing anything at all was far worse than the couple of hours I actively used my gaming rigs.
(DIR) Post #AV5Foo3O5Yjzg05i40 by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T17:08:27Z
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@trezzer FASCINATING. Standby as in idle, or standby as in sleep?
(DIR) Post #AV5G4BptwqnrmR7PUW by darth@silversword.online
2023-04-27T17:11:15Z
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@killyourfm @trezzer I just checked his claim on my Windows 10 PC. It uses about 80W on idle, literally doing nothing. Sorry for the spoilers hehe, but this is a bit too much for doing nothing. I'll have to check the Linux numbers later.
(DIR) Post #AV5GHaRrkeLJsXGRto by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T17:13:41Z
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@darth @trezzer No no, I don't mind spoilers. It's good to compare data! Darth, are you using a Kill-A-Watt? Measuring power at the wall?
(DIR) Post #AV5GSC6gaqNBZOPpEu by darth@silversword.online
2023-04-27T17:15:37Z
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@killyourfm @trezzer wall power, yes.
(DIR) Post #AV5GeSKS6cxnMAhYDA by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T17:17:50Z
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@darth @trezzer Would you be so kind as to start a doc somewhere or shoot me an email with some of your findings? It's for a future L4E Episode ;-)
(DIR) Post #AV5JJiEM5Y52SKeMD2 by darth@silversword.online
2023-04-27T17:47:43Z
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@killyourfm @trezzer no problem, just give me some input that you are testing so I can replicate on my side for comparison. I do have a sheet where I count how much I spend every month on gaming, tho, in € of electricity. (spoiler: it's not much)
(DIR) Post #AV5LJ0hO8dEdLx1TiS by trezzer@social.linux.pizza
2023-04-27T18:09:58Z
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@killyourfm Sleep. My TV area had a constant minimum of around 23W going up to 50W at times. That includes various consoles in sleep and AVR plus TV in sleep. My stereo area ate up some 30-50 also. I furthermore found out my little drinks fridge used more power than my full-sized kitchen fridge in a day. Now, there are many more areas with power vampires, so I smart plug'ed almost everywhere and now things just turn off at night or whenever I decide to.
(DIR) Post #AV5MCLQglPW7Zib5Wq by trezzer@social.linux.pizza
2023-04-27T18:19:53Z
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@killyourfm I added smart plugs in September 2022. The year before and year after added for perspective. Numbers are: total power consumption, average monthly consumption, cost. Part of it was also behavioral change, though; no more ambience videos on OLED TVs, less A/C, more laptop gaming.
(DIR) Post #AV5NlrYBQlwJHmbRbc by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T18:37:38Z
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I ran some power consumption tests on #Windows 11, measuring from the wall.My system: Ryzen 9 3900X, Radeon RX 6800 XT, 32GB RAM. 1% CPU utilization (Idle): 67W5% CPU + 10% GPU (Streaming with Plex): 130WDirt 5 Benchmark (4K, High Preset, Uncapped FPS): 431WDirt 5 Benchmark (4K, High Preset, 60FPS Cap): 355WDirt 5 Benchmark (1440p, High Preset, 60FPS) Cap) : 288WThe power savings gained JUST from capping FPS to 60 is more than 2x the total power of a Steam Deck under heavy load.
(DIR) Post #AV5OBkidS6xlcypxE8 by trezzer@social.linux.pizza
2023-04-27T18:14:10Z
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@darth @killyourfm My AMD/Nvidia laptop uses around 40W while idle/light use. My Linux desktop slightly less. My M1 Mac... single digits.
(DIR) Post #AV5OBlI5KJJrOvQGTw by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T18:42:19Z
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@trezzer @darth Just so I have some background, do you have access to Windows + Linux on your desktop and laptop? Having Windows isn't really that important, but I'm absolutely doing comparative testing ;-)
(DIR) Post #AV5OKWdTBQ4AYUbVhY by vsaw@mastodon.social
2023-04-27T18:43:54Z
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@killyourfm Thats a lot! My 2018 MacBook under full load uses the same amount of power like your idle system. And to clarify does this include the screen(s) and peripherals or just compute?
(DIR) Post #AV5OOuYECxUVt0FAIK by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T18:44:43Z
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@vsaw This is JUST the PC! (I can only measure one input on the Kill-a-Watt)
(DIR) Post #AV5OdOiCrp35TzooWO by vsaw@mastodon.social
2023-04-27T18:47:18Z
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@killyourfm If you are interested in measuring your entire setup, You could get an extension cord plug all devices in and measure all of them at once with the Kill-a-watt.
(DIR) Post #AV5OkU1XW4MLz5Ex6W by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T18:48:35Z
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@vsaw Huh. that's a fairly simple solution I hadn't thought about!
(DIR) Post #AV5OvT4FPcAECgkEN6 by vsaw@mastodon.social
2023-04-27T18:50:31Z
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@killyourfm 😅My guess is though, the screens won’t make a big difference probably 20-50W. At least my “old” 1080p screen was using this much.
(DIR) Post #AV5P3Wcu41NlYfnSAS by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T18:52:01Z
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@vsaw True, true. And what I'm really trying to capture is the power consumption differences between operating systems, form factors, and eventually proprietary vs open-source software.
(DIR) Post #AV5PB7oYCNYivBruDI by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T18:53:25Z
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I'll repeat the same tests with #Fedora 38 #Linux tomorrow. What I'm beginning is a journey to capture the power consumption differences between operating systems, form factors, and eventually, proprietary vs open-source software.Please watch this space.
(DIR) Post #AV5PPlCgXymv8h8UFs by trezzer@social.linux.pizza
2023-04-27T18:55:38Z
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@killyourfm @darth My Linux machine is a dedicated box, sadly.
(DIR) Post #AV5PSBbhLnvJbhza4G by vsaw@mastodon.social
2023-04-27T18:55:43Z
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@killyourfm Oh there is loads of fun to be had with this. A while back I found a research group looking into energy consumption of video streaming on Android. TLDR, 720p cuts it down in half compared to 1080p https://s2group.cs.vu.nl/2022-01-05-green-lab-experiment/
(DIR) Post #AV5Q6r5IYeXDpYEJhw by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-27T19:03:51Z
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@trezzer @darth that’s far from sad, but I know what you’re saying 😉
(DIR) Post #AV5dz3j14jFM4mz5xA by lminiero@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T21:39:15Z
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@killyourfm Fedora Linux with which desktop environment, though? Gnome and KDE are known resource hogs compared to XFCE and others for instance. Or is this part of the software analysis that will follow?
(DIR) Post #AV6P6PoE3s7oRQQlO4 by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T06:27:12Z
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@lminiero So, in 2019 I published this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/05/06/benchmarked-the-most-power-efficient-ubuntu-19-04-flavor-will-surprise-you/The takeaway was that GNOME had a very similar power envelope compared to Xfce (surprising, yes) and KDE was indeed pretty power hungry. MATE was the most power efficient at the time. I am VERY much looking forward to revisiting these tests with better tools and a few years of optimizations in the rearview mirror.
(DIR) Post #AV6P8dpOuV3uV22eNU by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T06:27:42Z
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@lminiero To answer your question directly: the flagship, which would be GNOME.
(DIR) Post #AV6Px9KA5B3Mf7VvW4 by PublicLewdness@freespeechextremist.com
2023-04-28T06:36:59.748469Z
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@killyourfm @lminiero I use a desktop mainly and don't pay for hydro directly but as a Mate user i'm glad that if I did care that I would be happy with the result.
(DIR) Post #AV6QPlAwwflSAGqcS0 by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T06:42:07Z
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@PublicLewdness @lminiero I really loved what @wimpy told me back then about improving MATE's efficiency: "MATE is power efficient due to an aggregation of small margins. The margins between the competitors are so small there is no one thing you can improve to leap frog your opponents. So, you identify lots of small margins of improvement. Singularly they don't move the needle. Collectively, you win gold."
(DIR) Post #AV6S2k4N5jg9ywvGwS by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:00:08Z
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Starting #Fedora 38 power consumption tests, and decided to see how much extra power gets consumed by simply switching refresh rate from 60Hz to 120Hz (as this demands more work from the #Radeon card). [As a refresher, my this is a tower PC with an #AMD Ryzen 3900X and Radeon RX 6800 XT] - 1% CPU utilization (idle) at 60Hz: 67W (this is the same result as Windows 11, btw)- 1% CPU utlilization (idle) at 120Hz: 97WSo an extra 30W pulled from the wall just to double my desktop refresh rate.
(DIR) Post #AV6SJnZnJ3rhmUknAW by lminiero@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T07:03:18Z
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@killyourfm @PublicLewdness@freespeechextremist.com @wimpy this makes sense. In a similar fashion it's what I've been doing over the years too: XFCE was the lightest when I tried them all and stuck to it; then I disabled the effects compositor; then I replaced apps with the lightest alternatives; etc. I feel like I'm in a place now where the whole setup is quite snappy thanks to all these small handmade enhancements 🤭 Not sure I'll ever try MATE though: I was never a fan of gnome, visually, and it's a fork of 2.x IIRC?
(DIR) Post #AV6SoCtpigvd0Vcubg by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:08:48Z
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In the UK, at 8 hours of operation per day, that 120Hz refresh rate boost would only result in about £30 per year. But that ecological footprint multiplied by millions of people? Well, that might truly suck. Especially when we add up all the other "quality of life" things we enjoy with modern desktop PCs. (I don't know how to make these calculations, and maybe this is something you would excel at @baldpolnareffart?)
(DIR) Post #AV6TFKtI7HuTbuJEHY by s31bz@linuxrocks.online
2023-04-28T07:13:20Z
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@killyourfm @baldpolnareffart that sounds perfect for him. Will you be measuring differences between Fedora and Windows throughout the weeks? I could possibly point to this data as to why I'll migrate from my desktop to a Framework 16 by the beginning of next year, if the power savings help the choice along lol
(DIR) Post #AV6TSkNqe77ORJzrma by baldpolnareffart@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T07:16:04Z
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@killyourfm I love what you're trying to do! How are you collecting the data? Keep in touch, I'm interested at doing something with it
(DIR) Post #AV6TaybHfktmqgCnWy by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:17:38Z
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@baldpolnareffart Right now I'm just throwing notes and results in Joplin. Not very organized yet. But I would like to make all this public, and have other people running similar tests.
(DIR) Post #AV6TlUE6wRllpcNUvo by vsaw@mastodon.social
2023-04-27T19:01:51Z
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@killyourfm Here are some people and organizations you could check out if you want to learn more about energy efficient softwarethe software and sustainability research group https://s2group.cs.vu.nl/https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/ which build the awesome CO2.js library@fershad who works for the green web foundation and has a CO2 aware homepagehttps://www.blauer-engel.de/en/productworld/resources-and-energy-efficient-software-products a German certificate. Super cool fact: the first software to get the certificate is #KDE #Okular
(DIR) Post #AV6TlUr6bSxfmYcdiC by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:19:31Z
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@vsaw @fershad Some context around that super cool fact: I watched Joseph's presentation (from KDE) at LAS last weekend about their Blue Angel certification and software sustainability -- that is precisely what inspired me to start this testing! (I'll also be seeking the same certification for Thunderbird)
(DIR) Post #AV6TnqnbzKuwQ06uXI by Zelfir@noc.social
2023-04-28T07:19:54Z
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@killyourfm We really need a variable refresh rate. There is no point to stay at 120Hz all the time.We could use a lower refresh rate while typing and only bump it before playing animations.
(DIR) Post #AV6Tu5eRgIXADdnYTg by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:21:04Z
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@Zelfir Agreed! This is something iOS and Android are already doing, right?
(DIR) Post #AV6TyPf5E2HjRE9qgC by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:21:48Z
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@s31bz @baldpolnareffart I will be measuring a LOT, and publishing all the data...somewhere :D
(DIR) Post #AV6UAB1dT6U3WHJeXg by baldpolnareffart@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T07:23:58Z
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@killyourfm I think before collecting data from various different people, we should try to organise some sort of guideline to follow, just to make sure everyone who's involved is on the same page. We could start collecting individual data and try to look for interesting patterns before asking the community to submit anything
(DIR) Post #AV6UODRxFcTX5qJxLs by Zelfir@noc.social
2023-04-28T07:26:30Z
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@killyourfm Yes but AFAIK we don't have this yet on desktop Linux environments.
(DIR) Post #AV6UPTa8l3MxPokawK by baldpolnareffart@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T07:26:47Z
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@killyourfm @s31bz Just share some notes if you want, if there's anything to be noticed immediately I could try to simplify your work when collecting at larger scale
(DIR) Post #AV6UQNs9TH3Dztblmy by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:26:55Z
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@baldpolnareffart I'd prefer looking to your for guidance on methodology. Let's take this to email!
(DIR) Post #AV6Uqz6hejUv0Y6AuO by mathieucomandon@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T07:31:41Z
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@killyourfm that's a really cool project! I started a small tool to gather this kind of data (https://github.com/lutris/hardmon) but it's for CPU and GPU only. What do you use to measure power consumption from the wall? I have some smart plug which might do the trick
(DIR) Post #AV6X6a48j763swSq1o by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:56:54Z
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@mathieucomandon hardmon looks really useful! After all, CPU and GPU are going to drive the majority of power usage. Does it depend on the machine having various system sensors available? (For background, I use to use Phoronix Test Suite for stuff like this, but yours gets straight to the point and would probably be a better option for me).
(DIR) Post #AV6X9GNMOF6bgcjX28 by mathieucomandon@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T07:43:50Z
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@killyourfm would be worthy to note that your low (288W for Dirt 5 at 1440p) would pretty much be my high. I measured around 210W max from a 5700XT and 80W max from a Ryzen 5 2600. 4k gaming has a much heavier impact on power consumption than 120Hz gaming. I haven't tried 4k gaming, but with FSR and DLSS it may no longer be necessary to render at such high resolutions?
(DIR) Post #AV6X9GtGTcctHZf0lM by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T07:57:26Z
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@mathieucomandon And now you have my brain working overtime. What would the power savings of DLSS & FSR look like when applied to millions of games? Damn....
(DIR) Post #AV6YHG9xB58LHpq6gC by mathieucomandon@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T08:10:02Z
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@killyourfm on some games they are already enabled by default. FSR is pretty much what makes a game like Dead island 2 playable on a Steam Deck. The whole portable gaming PC trend might help getting games that are less power hungry by default. On the other hand, I can't wait to see what UE5 games look like... That will step up the power hunger...
(DIR) Post #AV6Z2kymPN3yU0GGdE by mathieucomandon@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T08:18:40Z
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@killyourfm I've tried to avoid any dependency and keep the whole thing as a single file so it's easy to run on any machine that has python. It does require root where mangohud does not but mangohud hasn't been able to report the CPU power.
(DIR) Post #AV6wv4tWsSvupfg1ho by PublicLewdness@freespeechextremist.com
2023-04-28T12:46:23.244414Z
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@killyourfm @lminiero @wimpy I like that philosophy.
(DIR) Post #AV6y3akqPHkfunEp9c by be4foss@floss.social
2023-04-28T12:52:33Z
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@baldpolnareffart @killyourfm An established methodology is one of the benefits of the Blue Angel ecolabel award criteria. We document the process in the KDE Eco handbook:https://eco.kde.org/handbook/See these publications for information about the methodology."Sustainable software products -- Towards assessment criteria for resource and energy efficiency" (Sec 4.1)https://doi.org/10.1016/j.future.2018.02.044And this German Environmental Agency report, pp. 22-27 summary in English:https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/publikationen/entwicklung-anwendung-von-bewertungsgrundlagen-fuer
(DIR) Post #AV6y3bIsMkyRcLA0CO by baldpolnareffart@fosstodon.org
2023-04-28T12:54:22Z
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@be4foss @killyourfm That was gold, thank you!
(DIR) Post #AV6y3c4NW8yHzfNwEy by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T12:58:54Z
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@baldpolnareffart @be4foss Indeed, that handbook is a great resource. And I think the Expert Power Control 1202 might be JUST A BIT more useful than my Kill-A-Watt :D
(DIR) Post #AV6yECqbdJKgxCziUK by be4foss@floss.social
2023-04-28T12:58:51Z
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@killyourfm @baldpolnareffart You can follow Engineer Detlef Thoms, who does relevant back-of-the-envelope calculations in the "Sustainable Programming" course (see 04:20–06:10). Calculate the energy savings, make certain assumptions about use (e.g., how often the savings apply), and multiply out. Given the global nature of software, the numbers scale up very quickly.https://open.hpi.de/courses/cleanit2021/items/5DHsS3tJsXAqfUE4q4F82Z
(DIR) Post #AV6yNWR4AsLCJNUTvU by killyourfm@layer8.space
2023-04-28T13:02:26Z
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@be4foss @baldpolnareffart *Furiously scribbles notes*
(DIR) Post #AV7COoNMMDR5bGGXmy by slembcke@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-04-28T15:39:36Z
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@killyourfm Wow, WHAT‽ I would not have expected it to make much difference when idling… I should try that.