Post AV3MJQEYuX0cBdNcdU by pmonks@sfba.social
(DIR) More posts by pmonks@sfba.social
(DIR) Post #AV318AgeH9wpkIJMCu by QasimRashid@mastodon.social
2023-04-26T15:12:06Z
1 likes, 3 repeats
A quick history lesson. From 1940-1980:•Wealthiest paid 70-94% marginal tax•0 of them went broke from taxation•0 of them left USA•All remained exceedingly wealthy•Manufacturing boomed•The middle class was 62% of US economy (It's now 40% post 'trickle down scamenomics)•We had the strongest middle class growth in US HistoryLet's do that again. Stop protecting billionaires. Start taxing them.#TaxBillionaires
(DIR) Post #AV36OmTi2HnFMDzxRY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-26T16:13:01Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@QasimRashid I mean, It was abusive and unfair, which is enough reason for me to give it a hard no... **no one** should be taked out of 94% of their income, regardless if they can survive it.That said, I can pretty much garuntee the whole "0 of them left" and "0 of them went broke" is pure nonsense, you have a source for that?
(DIR) Post #AV39HEghZMDmOTAYlM by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-26T16:45:55Z
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@freemo that’s not how progressive tax systems (including the now-watered-down one in the US) works. No one paid 94% of their entire income in tax, pre-Reagan - that would have been a flat tax system (which the US has never had to my knowledge), and as you so rightly point out is grotesquely unfair (especially to lower income workers) @QasimRashid
(DIR) Post #AV39ZtYuL2SKNLQAkK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-26T16:49:16Z
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@pmonks Yes I am well aware how income tax works. But yes as you get father above the 200K bracket the closeryoull get to 94%. So yes you have tax rates abusively high for the rich that can approach 94%, if your rich enough you are effecitvely paying 94%.@QasimRashid
(DIR) Post #AV39vFFAvBMxhYN6o4 by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-26T16:53:10Z
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@freemo again, that’s not how progressive tax systems work. Khan Academy has a good explainer that might help explain where you’re going wrong: https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/taxes-topic/taxes/v/tax-brackets-and-progressive-taxation @QasimRashid
(DIR) Post #AV39vqnVIVoWAjiXx2 by warmbeverageenjoyer@freespeechextremist.com
2023-04-26T16:53:20.822995Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @pmonks @QasimRashid WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE MILLIONAIRES HAVE TO PAY TAXES?? WAHHHHHHHH!!!! I MIGHT BE ONE AND WHEN I AM I DON'T WAANNA, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH shut up rard
(DIR) Post #AV3AElpryBgMHkqUzY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-26T16:56:43Z
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@pmonks @QasimRashid Please feel free to explain specifically where you think i went wrong. I deal with these sorts of taxes daily as the EVP of a company.
(DIR) Post #AV3CX1jnmhWCj3qC3c by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-26T17:22:24Z
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@freemo sure. Building on the example from Khan Academy, if I make $10,001 in income, I don’t pay 20% of the total ($2,000.20) in taxes. Rather, I pay 20% of the income that’s in the 20% bracket as tax i.e. 20% of $1, or $0.20. This is equivalent to 0.002% of my total income, not 20%.The same pattern applies as my income goes up and the higher portions of it “land” in higher tax brackets. I’m only paying that higher tax rate on the marginal income that falls in that bracket. The net effect is that my overall effective income tax rate is *always* lower than the top tax rate I’m paying - that’s simply how the math works.
(DIR) Post #AV3CcD4p3O47LD90t6 by ojb10@mastodon.scot
2023-04-26T17:23:22Z
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@freemo @QasimRashid I don’t agree low earners should have an awful standard of life so high earners can have an even better standard of life.
(DIR) Post #AV3HhRE8N2DURhoPmy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-26T18:20:14Z
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@pmonks yes.. that doesnt disagree with what i said.If you want to talk in math terms.. as your income approaches infinity what does your effective tax rate approach? It approaches the 20%, or in the real world case 94, like I said.
(DIR) Post #AV3If7Rt2Bh0Tohdui by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-26T18:31:06Z
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@freemo and as we approach infinity, the remaining 6% also approaches infinity. Maths is fun that way.But let’s also not forget that:1. The 94% top tax bracket you’re quoting only existed for 1 year (1944/45)2. To hit that bracket, one had to earn more than ~$3.5 million in today’s dollarsEven today anyone earning that much in any single year is clearly incredibly wealthy, and incurring a high absolute tax rate on the marginal income above $3.5 million doesn’t change that.
(DIR) Post #AV3J8lJxrxSmXV8GkC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-26T18:35:52Z
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1. It was hovering in thr 90s fkr about 10 years2. Actually closer to 2 mil or 2.5 mil and yes im aware, so. Its an abusive tax rate in my eyes regardless of how rich someone being taxed it might be.As i said no one, including the incredibly wealthy, should ever be taxed at such an abusive rate.
(DIR) Post #AV3MJQEYuX0cBdNcdU by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-26T19:11:59Z
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@freemo the top marginal tax rate hovered around 90% from 1944 until 1963, and stayed above 70% until Reagan gutted the tax system in 1980.Respectfully, you’re incorrect regarding the amount. The 1944/45 94% tax bracket was on incomes above $200,000, which in today’s dollars is close to (but slightly less than) $3.5 million.Finally, I consider unrestricted wealth antithetical to healthy democracy (and also immoral, though that’s neither here nor there), and taxation is one of the few effective mechanisms we have to counter it. To one of the points one of the other commenters here made regarding the wealthy dodging income tax anyway, this is also why I’m in favour of wealth taxes (despite some of their flaws).
(DIR) Post #AV3NGi42GInsZUj7aK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-26T19:22:42Z
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@pmonks Yea its 3.3m your right there.Wealth is not a pie, some having more doesnt mesn others have less. So its hard for me to see someone who generates wealth unethical. That say the system does have inequality issues to be addressed.As for rich people avoiding taxes, i usually find its kore so the other way around, usually the poor and middle class seem to lie, avoid, and cover up taxes when they can far more often than the rich. Id like so find some good numbers on that though, just from what Ive seen.
(DIR) Post #AV3RiyKZm9BywmCBKS by TootUncommon@mas.to
2023-04-26T16:03:45Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@QasimRashid And it's funny - when you ask any MAGAhead to name a year "when America was great" they almost always point to those specific years.Then you point out what MADE America great at that point in time and they're not so excited.
(DIR) Post #AV3UBISEkYmPNMPeQS by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-26T20:40:10Z
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@freemo I agree that wealth isn’t a fixed-size pie, and that isn’t a point I’m making (or think is especially important). The tendency for wealth to concentrate in the hands of a few if left unchecked, *is* the point I’m making, along with the demonstrated fact that taxes are one of our best mechanisms to counter this.I’m also not sure what tax evasion (by anyone) has to do with the original discussion. But let me be clear that I absolutely believe the IRS should be comprehensively funded so that they can go after all tax evaders, whoever they are.
(DIR) Post #AV4GT0h8JYuRJ6tOls by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T05:41:12Z
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@pmonks What your missing is these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.So i have no issue with someone having way more wealth than everyone else when that wealth only exists because of thrm in thr first place. It isnt a pie they are stealing more from, they literally are baking the pies.
(DIR) Post #AV4If7WcwboNsJsfWS by utterfiction@mastodon.me.uk
2023-04-27T06:05:16Z
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@freemo @pmonks Wealth is not interchangeable with profit, it is an accumulation of profit. The profit in any given retrospective timeframe is absolutely a pie. There was only so much to be made, and if we share in that profit and you got more, I absolutely got less.There is no such thing as a “wealth generator”, only a “profit generator” (and that sounds a good deal less lofty). Whether my profit becomes my wealth is beyond their control.Taxes (usually) limit profit, not wealth.
(DIR) Post #AV4Ix76JGFrrls9PRQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T06:09:00Z
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@utterfiction @pmonks No one said anything about wealth being equivelant to profit... what are you talkingWhen i turn a pile of sand i to a piece of glass ive created wealth, i own that wealth, and this is true regardless of if i ever sell that piece of glass or not. It has nothing to do with profit except that selling the glass and converti g the wealth i made into cash .eans i can buy more sand, make more glass, and generate more wealth.
(DIR) Post #AV4LM3h7GLzUM2OBoO by utterfiction@mastodon.me.uk
2023-04-27T06:35:56Z
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@freemo @pmonks You’re talking about it. You are discussing the idea of taxes being used to redistribute wealth. But they’re (generally) not, they redistribute profit.Normally, no-one is coming to raid the wealth of the wealthy, just to limit the growth of inequality. However, fail to limit that growth for long enough and people can become dangerously unequally wealthy. So now, people are actually starting to talk about a “wealth tax”. This is a warning sign.
(DIR) Post #AV4M47AHil2FrM2Xw0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T06:43:53Z
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@utterfiction @pmonks No insaid nothing about taxes redistributing wealth. I only pointed out that the rich people, who got rich by being good wealth generators, shoukd not be taxed an abusive rate in the 90s.Whether what is abusively taken from them is used to redistribute money is secondary to my concerns at best.
(DIR) Post #AV4NUXTIdTYOvp68fI by utterfiction@mastodon.me.uk
2023-04-27T06:59:54Z
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@freemo @pmonks Ok, point taken. Your position still confuses me, though. When you say “good wealth generators” It sounds like you believe that’s a service they’re offering society as a whole. But when I see that phrase all I see is “efficient profit maximisers”. Few individuals are involved in activity that increases the size of the economy and even those that are focussed on increasing their own wealth. So I don’t understand why that should defend them against any given level of taxation.
(DIR) Post #AV4OIJ7iFvvwuWjTSi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T07:08:53Z
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@utterfiction @pmonks So no profit maximizers and wealth generators are very different things, though a person may be both.The reason you dont see them as expanding the economy is because wealth can be destroyed too. You have wealth generators and wealth destroyers and these forces cancel eachother. So overall you may not see the economy grow even kf an individual is generating a lot of wealth
(DIR) Post #AV4P2jervsVqWmNai0 by hanchmanj@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T07:17:19Z
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@freemo @pmonks Middle class earners don't have the type of income to cheat on taxes. Payroll is reported to the government and they know exactly what the majority owes in taxes. Only the wealthy have different tax avenues they can exploit to avoid paying taxes.
(DIR) Post #AV4PvCF5sBRuolIBsW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T07:27:05Z
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@hanchmanj @pmonks Yea thats nonsense. They arent cheating on their taxes as employees. They are usually working under the table or not reporting side income and stuff like that. Everytime you see someome on the street selling food or washing your car or any of the many hard working services people do to make money independently, its almost never reported to taxes.
(DIR) Post #AV4Qq6Ap6qJEVAQb20 by opendna@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-04-27T07:37:26Z
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@freemo @pmonks @QasimRashid First of all, the top US tax bracket is 7x higher than the Dutch one, and 12.5% less. The "OUTRAGEOUS" Biden proposal to raise the top income tax bracket would still have Americans earning ~€489k paying rates like Dutch earning €35k.Second, even when top US rates were +80%, almost nobody was paying them. Why? Because the whole point was to redirect income into capital investments.
(DIR) Post #AV4R3jCTJwiDIyhLPs by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T07:39:53Z
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@opendna @pmonks @QasimRashid The Dutch taxes on the highest tax bracket is also highly abusive. So not sure thats a great comparison.
(DIR) Post #AV4RWyc169OlVDaqRM by hanchmanj@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T07:45:09Z
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@freemo @pmonksIf an employee is being paid under the table, that means either the employer is exploiting an undocumented worker or they are paying someone less than minimum wage. I can guarantee the employer is saving more in taxes than the employee, benefitting once again, the wealthy.Middle class workers NEED that documentation because it is required to get credit.
(DIR) Post #AV4SH108Y2UOEUpPGq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T07:53:29Z
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@opendna @pmonks @QasimRashid A person making 489 euros in the netherlands will pay about 233 euros in taxes, or the very abusive tax rate of about 48%On 45k euros income the dutch will pay about 13k or 29%Similarly in the usa 489 equivelant in euros of income would cost you 35.5% effective rate and 41.5% marginal rate.So no this is incorrect, at 489K while the taxes are a nice chink less in the US it is also quite a bit higher than the 45K levdl as you suggest also.
(DIR) Post #AV4SJal6ZbXBiD1f3Q by hanchmanj@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T07:45:23Z
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@freemo @pmonks And again, the rich don't generate wealth. They generate excess profit derived from the labor of the employee. Wealth is the byproduct of greed.
(DIR) Post #AV4SJd51wUf2uaMbOC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T07:53:55Z
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@hanchmanj @pmonks Yea thats just plain wrong.
(DIR) Post #AV4STB6EpPNp1lTvSi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T07:55:39Z
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@hanchmanj @pmonks No thats just completely disconnected from reality. My mom worked under the table her whole life.. She was documented and asked her employer to pay her under the tabke so she could make more...And yes there is a motivation to show income for loans, but most people working under the table cant get loans anyway.
(DIR) Post #AV4UaRO0sB3hTWO20O by hanchmanj@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T08:19:24Z
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@freemo @pmonks So your mom was exploited by her employer and saved them a bunch of payroll taxes. Not to mention she missed out on some very important employee protections like unemployment insurance, any type of employer provided health insurance or pension, and workman's compensation. That employer took advantage of your mom and pocketed the difference.
(DIR) Post #AV4Uu7EHWeB2kdDUDQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T08:22:56Z
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@hanchmanj @pmonks No she was offered a normal job at normal pay. **She** asked her employer to pay her under table so she could keep her tax money as extra. The employer helped her out. The employer gained nothing so they didnt exploit anything.That said you are pretending like everyone in the middle class is an a w2 worker and not a 1099 worker. 1099 workers can just skip paying taxes and has little to do with who is paying them.She asked to miss out on protections, and since the employer doesnt need to provide any sort of health insurance the employer wasnt saving anything.
(DIR) Post #AV4yc3ruHPVzjw3eue by opendna@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-04-27T13:55:50Z
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@freemo @pmonks @QasimRashid HSBC says the Dutch second band is 37.25%. The top US bracket is 37%.You're invoking effective rate, which are effectively meaningless if you exclude VAT/sales tax, health insurance, education, etc. Cutting the top US backet (& cap gains) was paid for by shifting the burden of society, the economy, and the state, to those least able to pay.
(DIR) Post #AV4zzxrMN7h40YlQUi by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T14:09:40Z
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@freemo trickle down economics (which you appear to be describing) does not work. The impact of cutting (or indeed increasing) tax rates over the last century or so has not been shown to have much, if any, correlation with relevant economic indicators (GDP, job creation, income growth, wage growth, etc.).I try to avoid memes when engaging in serious discussions, but this one nicely summarises what we’re discussing:
(DIR) Post #AV501CEiPBX8t0H9Rw by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T14:11:37Z
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@freemo correction: I did. I mentioned wealth taxes several replies ago. @utterfiction
(DIR) Post #AV50Kx7IKUTHmjE1SK by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T14:15:11Z
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@freemo repeatedly calling something “abusive” doesn’t make it so, and I hope this conversation is encouraging you to reconsider that dogma with an open mind. @opendna @QasimRashid
(DIR) Post #AV50pvysbOAHEv3vXc by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T14:20:46Z
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@freemo that is incorrect. The Dutch also have a progressive income tax system and the first bracket (9.28% tax rate) is from €0 to €35,742. So your example person would pay €45.38 in taxes (in 2023). @opendna @QasimRashid
(DIR) Post #AV57EfXPTPtPCtOJma by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T15:32:30Z
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@pmonks @opendna @QasimRashid I literally used the official govt tax burden calculator in both cases... no the nunbers are accurate.
(DIR) Post #AV57IY7WzdOFMQ8YPA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T15:33:06Z
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@pmonks @opendna @QasimRashid Saying it isnt abusive also doesnt make it so. Clearly this is my interpritstikn.
(DIR) Post #AV57V20tg3yrXyzBWS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T15:35:27Z
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@pmonks Nope no one said anything about trickle down.
(DIR) Post #AV57efskoemvntm7qy by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T15:37:10Z
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@freemo it seems you mixed up the numbers in your post - did you mean €469 (your first number) or €469,000 (your second number)? I used your first number, fwiw.The second number is clearly for someone wealthy, so a high tax rate is not going to be material for them - they have plenty of income. @opendna
(DIR) Post #AV57n6U1nUlccfEGQK by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T15:38:39Z
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@freemo also correct, which is why I haven’t said that. Bringing emotive language into this discussion (either way) doesn’t help us each come to a deeper understanding of the topic. @opendna
(DIR) Post #AV57qvtP7Ct2vzvNNg by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T15:39:25Z
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@freemo you didn’t use that term, but what you’re describing is indeed trickle down economics.
(DIR) Post #AV5BXvl9mkUcpvGGhc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T16:20:46Z
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@pmonks No not even remotely related. At no point did i suggest rich people having money or keeping their money was needed to ensure the poorer and middle class people would benefit.I
(DIR) Post #AV5BaQenscVdF6Tsoq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T16:21:13Z
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@pmonks @opendna 469k
(DIR) Post #AV5BwLC4sC1cfYUdDk by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T16:25:12Z
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@freemo you did, here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110269174381291162First paragraph reads:“What your missing is these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.”And not to go off on a tangent, but this isn’t even true. ~50% of the jobs in the US are in small businesses, and 2/3 of job growth over the last 25 years has been created by small businesses. They’re the engine of the economy, not the wealthy.
(DIR) Post #AV5C97DY9DnN5TGzTM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T16:27:29Z
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@pmonks No i didnt... nothing in the quote i made implies trickle down, nothing.I also never said the wealthy were the engine or the only ones generating wealth, nor did i even say they generate the majority of wealth.My god man read what i said not what you want to hear.
(DIR) Post #AV5COfik9FXURNHVvk by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T16:29:50Z
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@freemo are you disputing that you wrote that toot, or are you disputing that your statement in that toot (“these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.”) describes trickle down economics?
(DIR) Post #AV5CUqgAJm36AI1MaO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T16:30:36Z
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@pmonks I wrote the toot, nothing in what you quoted implies there is any trickle down effect or even, as you imply, that they are the only ones generating wealth
(DIR) Post #AV5Cybz5W8S5HG41jM by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T16:36:47Z
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@freemo the argument that the wealthy predominantly create wealth is literally describing trickle down economics.You don’t have to take my word for it - for example here’s the top non-ad result I just got on Google for the search “definition of trickle down economics”: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trickledowntheory.aspThe first paragraph reads:“Trickle-down economics and its policies employ the theory that tax breaks and benefits for corporations and the wealthy will trickle down and eventually benefit everyone.”
(DIR) Post #AV5DHPgHU8E0caETIW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T16:40:11Z
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@pmonks i never said the wealthy "predominately" generate wealth. Yes they are wealth generators, everyone else can be too.You really are trying hard to ram that square peg in a round hole so you can use your talking points... but again i said nothing of the sort. Yea that definition you just provide has absolutely no relationshop to what i said. Never said it trickles down, never claimed it benefits everyone to give them cuts or breaks either.
(DIR) Post #AV5DXEbESA4yt0Pn7o by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T16:43:05Z
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@freemo again, you did say that, here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110269174381291162First paragraph: “What your missing is these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.”And as I said a few minutes ago, this isn’t even true - small businesses contribute more to the economy (i.e. the creation of wealth) than the wealthy do.
(DIR) Post #AV5DnCPQMgsIj4VLAO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T16:46:01Z
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@pmonks you keep.quoting that, literally no.where in the quote of mine you keep using did i say or imply what you keep.insisting i said.Yes they generate much of the same wealth that they wind up walking away with. That is not remotely the same as saying giving them money or tax breaks benefits everyone. I didnt even imply they were the majority of wealth generators, only that thr monry they have in the end they largely generate. Just as the wealth others aquire is largely generated as well.
(DIR) Post #AV5DuvjsECqVLCkw2i by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T16:47:21Z
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@freemo as others have said elsewhere in this thread, the wealthy largely obtain that wealth by skimming the difference between the value of what their employees produce, and what they pay those employees. That’s not “generating wealth”, it’s exploitation.
(DIR) Post #AV5FqnKJlKMs07xT1s by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:08:27Z
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@pmonks Yea thats not really true.
(DIR) Post #AV5FqnrHmkjteNNnPs by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:09:01Z
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@freemo that’s not a very convincing argument you have there.
(DIR) Post #AV5FzrTzgC2RUso88W by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T16:50:49Z
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@freemo but that said, I think I see where some of the disconnect is coming from. You view “wealth” narrowly as personal property, whereas I view it as one aspect of the overall economy, and where the question of how it is distributed has profound implications for the health of that economy.
(DIR) Post #AV5Fzs0biw7t824AyG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:10:31Z
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@pmonks No i dont use wealth as personal property. I am using the economics definition of wealth. I usually deal with the advanced mathematical side of economics (having invented some.models myself still used in economics circles). So you can assune im using formal definitions unless i say otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AV5G3QBB8RInyWhizY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:11:10Z
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@pmonks Now was yours, i just rejected your assertion with no basis. The burden is on you to make the argument not me.
(DIR) Post #AV5G6Mb0uk6pjMBvWq by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:11:46Z
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@freemo so then explain to me how concentrating wealth in a relatively small %age of the population benefits the economy. I’m open to the possibility that I’ve missed an important detail.
(DIR) Post #AV5GFrewn4EGg7Ysvw by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:13:35Z
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@freemo others in this thread already replied to you with those details. I can go back and dig out their bases if you wish but I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed you wouldn’t be that pedantic.
(DIR) Post #AV5GLkEJKInbNCuGae by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:14:34Z
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@pmonks Why woukd i have to explain a thing that i never asserted? I never claimed concentrating wealth in and of itself benefits society.
(DIR) Post #AV5GTuw5PCTItVHN4a by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:16:05Z
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@pmonks ive already addressed the others or may have them blocked if thry are offiensive.. so no clue if i even saw what your referi g to but if i did inlikely already addresses it.
(DIR) Post #AV5GaQ4AZnORBHA17g by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:17:16Z
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@freemo yet you keep arguing in favour of the wealthy concentrating their wealth. I can only explain this to you; I can’t understand it for you.
(DIR) Post #AV5GisSksmPXZGh3C4 by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:17:52Z
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@freemo I followed all of those side threads and nowhere did you provide any compelling counter-arguments.
(DIR) Post #AV5GoY7JROPYChMtdo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:19:47Z
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@pmonks I never said the wealthy concentrating their wealth is a bad thing either.Before you work on "understanding it for me" try understanding what my stance is first. You already decided i was wrong yet your responses show you clearly dont even understand what my position is. You have that a bjt backwarss dont ya think?
(DIR) Post #AV5Gv8q5oyeppjSQ5I by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:20:58Z
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@pmonks Considering what an abysmal job your doing at even understanding my position when we are having a direct conversation i dont have much faith that yiu successfully followed those side threads at all to be honest.That said i do remain some hope that you are discussing in good faith... some
(DIR) Post #AV5H3mIH0w5SW3kymm by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:22:34Z
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@freemo correct - that’s *my* point, which I’ve attempted to support with credible evidence.
(DIR) Post #AV5HKagPR4X1Qf3y4W by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:25:35Z
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@pmonks great, like i saidput more time in ubderstanding views other than your own first, before you discount them and assume there wrong. Goes a long way
(DIR) Post #AV5HatKjrSupuDhR9k by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:28:34Z
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@freemo then let me paraphrase what I think your position is, you can correct it, and we can continue from there.My understanding of *your* position is:“The wealthy generate much of the wealth in society in a just fashion, should be allowed to retain most or all of that wealth for themselves, and there are no substantial negative societal ramifications of them doing so.”
(DIR) Post #AV5HngWWncX5wQJY80 by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:30:53Z
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@freemo that’s a bit rich, given that you keep confusing who is making which argument.
(DIR) Post #AV5I4DECyLuq0QctNY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:33:06Z
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@pmonks No...Sonfor stsrters most wealth is not genersted justly, not by the rich, the middle class or the poor. People trying to generate wealth at every class bracket are riddled with illegal and immoral activity to get there. So no the wealth generated by the wealthy has tons of unjustice attached to it, but so is the wealth generated by every other class.They also shouldnt be allowed to "retain most or all" for themselves. While 90%+is quite abusive i hav no problem with more reasonable tax percentage, but no i do t think tax should be at or near 0% for the wealthy.
(DIR) Post #AV5IH4gS3H4TGoyCYK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:36:10Z
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@pmonks ok
(DIR) Post #AV5IMyoEo0lomxQaVE by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:37:01Z
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@freemo ok I understood it after all, despite your earlier comments to the contrary, or …?
(DIR) Post #AV5ISD09T0ocFjUg3U by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:38:07Z
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@pmonks No it doesnt appear so. Your last explanation was still way off, i responded and clarified.
(DIR) Post #AV5IdaKl3fCHnnYaYK by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:40:11Z
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@freemo ah yes I see it now. For some reason some of your replies don’t show up in my notifications - I have to go back and manually walk the thread to see them.
(DIR) Post #AV5IotHSxE5NkaPMFE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:42:14Z
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@pmonks No worries. Like i said it does seem your trying to have a good faith discussion, even if some assumptions are getting in the way. Tbat said i can understand your mistske as the assumptions you are making are probably pretty common for people you have discussed with in the past. But youll have tonput a little more effort in than usual to understand my stance as i rarelt stick to the usual talking points as i have my own opinions on a lot of things.
(DIR) Post #AV5IpWt3hOKUaTIQkq by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T17:42:26Z
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@freemo ok good clarifications and I’d like to understand more. For starters, what, in your opinion, would be a reasonable tax system, not only for the wealthy but for the entire socioeconomic spectrum?
(DIR) Post #AV5JGn3RhEo4Y59aZk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T17:46:38Z
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@pmonks that would create a lot more mess in the conversation than it might be worth.I personally woukd prefer a progressive spending tax rwther than income. Luxury items have very high tax rates, essentials like food has a low or 0 tax rate. Tax spending not earning, have high tax rates on luxury , creates a more fair and still progressive system.That said i doubt we could ever get such a system approved and woukd require a complete rework of the tax system and addressing tons of edge cases, so probably best we leave that out of the scope of this discussion.
(DIR) Post #AV5Kt93wQ4CrlPEqB6 by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-27T18:05:25Z
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@freemo how do you avoid hoarding by the wealthy? Recall that almost all of their income is disposable, so disincentivizing spending (as a spending tax would do) reduces their spending (and consumer spending, at least in the US, is a major driver of the economy).
(DIR) Post #AV5NbfwRjjpAO15tgG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-27T18:33:59Z
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@pmonks A lot to unpack there, but ill try.So hoarding. There are a few factors that mitigate it, and depending on what is hoarded it may not be a big deal. The simplest case of keeping cash in a bank account isnt as big a deal as people think since that cash is made availible as loans to others, If everyone is hoarding cash that means the cost of loans goes down and enables easier access to loans (more cash in the bank not moving means it can be lended). So the first aspect is "hoarding isnt as bad as you think"Second hoarding is less of an issue here because while true it would mean reduced spending on luxury items, there is no sales tax on investments. So it would encourage (particularly due to the lower interest rates) more spending on investments and less on luxury items, rather than money not moving at all... So changing economy so fewer people are buying million dollar cars and that money is spent starting more million dollar business is a good thing.Third is that there are pressures that encourage spending regardless.. Usually inflation rate means if you sit on money it looses value, this is intentional... So this is another pressure for people to spend their money. thanks to sales tax being high it means they should be encouraged to spend the money but again towards investments, so yea lots of pressures that push towards money flow.
(DIR) Post #AV5lUxB5eVfGiTGsSG by hanchmanj@fosstodon.org
2023-04-27T23:02:44Z
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@freemo @pmonks Employers have to file 1099 forms too. So all the taxes are on the worker and again, the federal government knows what you make if you're a 1099 employee and they will get their taxes.And again, this is a wealthy breaking the law problem, not a worker problem. The employer holds all the cards in this situation and could choose not to pay her under the table.
(DIR) Post #AV954vzY1MkO48cfIm by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T13:27:10Z
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@freemo @pmonks @QasimRashid Now Dr. Explain to us how tax credits and tax write offs work to lessen the tax burden for the wealthy. Not to even mention the tax deferrals offered in 401ks and IRAs. So the real question is not what is the tax bracket you're in but what is the effective tax rate you actually pay. That's why Buffet says his secretary pays more in tax than he does.
(DIR) Post #AV99AnsLVdQ2RqJAKu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:13:01Z
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@MikeBon @pmonks @QasimRashid Yes they legally use the writeoffs and other benefits availible to everyone. If there is a specific writeoff you feel is unjust or only applies to the wealthh im open to discuss
(DIR) Post #AV99JkHgEOrRuqQDjs by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-29T14:14:39Z
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@freemo most of these write offs are only obtainable if you’re wealthy though, so no they’re not “available to everyone” in any meaningful way @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV99x3pdUH2rps3FVQ by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-29T14:16:46Z
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@freemo for example one can’t claim charitable donation deductions if one is living paycheck-to-paycheck and deciding whether to pay rent or utilities this month - there’s no disposable income available to be making such donations @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV99x4Ul1NwFtPI5bM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:21:45Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon That is a bit irrelevant since they are spending far more on charities then they save on a deduction.
(DIR) Post #AV9A0Yzk534DM3Rssy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:22:23Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Do you have a specific example. I mean im not argui g the tax shstem is perfect so if you want to abolish a specofic writeoff be specific
(DIR) Post #AV9A8873uWasIZTquO by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-29T14:23:46Z
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@freemo not at all. If a wealthy person doesn’t pursue legal loopholes to the tax code (such as charitable dedications), then they would have paid more in taxes. The “charitable” donation has very little to do with philanthropy and everything to do with retaining more personal wealth. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV9AEPZXuTW0BYnaoS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:24:53Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon How isnpaying 100k in donations to save 20k in taxes a loophole or even an exploit?
(DIR) Post #AV9AWpbpqNu29MeXvk by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-29T14:28:14Z
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@freemo charitable donations (at least in the US) work by reducing income, which means it can shift someone into a lower tax bracket. That can save substantially more than the amount of the donation. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV9Agty4UeSYZ1r7Ds by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T14:30:01Z
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@freemo @pmonks @QasimRashid sorry I'm a little behind on this thread, right now. It's just the "cry me a river" over how high my tax bracket is, is a bit over done. Here is a question for everyone, what are the purposes for taxes anyway. If you say to pay for federal policies and programs, well, you been duped.
(DIR) Post #AV9AjX3M98XSMca8ae by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:30:29Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon We are talking the super rich here, so you are by definition excluding people hovering tax brackets
(DIR) Post #AV9AqNEh2pXZwZ9B7w by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-29T14:30:09Z
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@freemo regardless, you’re dodging the original point: that these kinds of deductions are not equally available to everyone @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV9AqNjtAqUhVJk5ke by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:31:45Z
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@pmonks No one has presented an example where thry are exclusively or favorable towards the super rich. Everyone has access to them.. if you think there is one only the rich can use im still waiting to hear what one you mean@MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV9AtCOfngVPCCA7Tk by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-29T14:32:16Z
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@freemo the super rich have far more legal tax cheats at their disposal than just charitable donations - mechanisms that (to the original point) are not available to everyone @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AV9Bfim4j0WfVqFHZQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:40:59Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Simply stating it is so (again) doesnt get us anywhere. Which specific tax loophole do you think is exclusively availible to the rich, happy to discuss
(DIR) Post #AV9CQM6wnw0GplFGyW by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T14:49:29Z
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@freemo @pmonks saying exclusively is misleading. They loopholes aren't necessarily exclusive but are designed to benefit the wealthy more so than the non-wealthy. Which ones, you ask? All of them. Again that's why effective tax rates for the wealthy are as low as they are.
(DIR) Post #AV9DCeraO4IAtQ5nLE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T14:58:10Z
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@MikeBon I can think of a ton of cuts and benefits you get on taxes for the poor.. still waiting to hear you mention one and how you think it favors the rich. I suspect they exist i just cant think of one off hand.@pmonks
(DIR) Post #AV9DdeK8V8CH2RJic4 by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:03:04Z
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@freemo you're being purposely obtuse. Again using exclusivity is irrelevant. The greater the wealth the greater the benefit. Effective tax rate is all that matters.
(DIR) Post #AV9Dorg9BhlDdxxbua by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:05:02Z
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@MikeBon i specifically didnt use the word exclusively.. give an example of a tax cut that benefits the rich and hownit would need to be changed to benefit everyone. Then we can discuss it.
(DIR) Post #AV9ELWlTxyFQKv1xrs by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:10:28Z
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@freemo most business taxes are not available to those not wealthy enough to own a business. The same with the several tax breaks for owning real estate.
(DIR) Post #AV9EgB1hz3mSzuSzrs by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:14:43Z
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@MikeBon you can file as self employed even if you dont have a business in the typical sense. In fact every person who is washing windows, doing odd jobs, etc are all under business taxes, and these are the kinds of jobs we expect the homeless to do.The idea that 1099 basdd worked isnt an option for the poorer end of the spectrum is nonsense. In fact quite the opposite, most rich people, even if they own the company, are working for tbeir own company as a w2. There are quite a few barriers that specifically prevent the rich from getting tax breaks forcing thrn onto a w2 for their own business.
(DIR) Post #AV9FOUE5xcuNHoOB3Q by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:22:44Z
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@freemo idk who you think you're fooling but it ain't me.
(DIR) Post #AV9FTFPeSsR6n544WW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:23:29Z
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@MikeBon No one is fooling anyone, we are trying to have a discussion. Either engage in that if you wish or feel free to move along.
(DIR) Post #AV9FbrVSiWNTFjtFia by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:25:10Z
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@freemo there is no point in engaging with you.
(DIR) Post #AV9Fhan7mCRN9Jss2C by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:26:10Z
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@MikeBon then move along. Do us both a favor if you feel that way. No need to announce it.
(DIR) Post #AV9FoE5mZMZemCm4g4 by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:27:23Z
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@freemo I'll decide when to move on, thank you very much.
(DIR) Post #AV9Fy6FAbZitKXsDHE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:28:43Z
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@MikeBon haha ok waste everyones time then adding no value and blowing hot air if thats what you want. Lol
(DIR) Post #AV9G87LhLmvrechhAW by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:30:49Z
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@freemo likewise. See I can play the, I need the last word game, too.
(DIR) Post #AV9GGX5RXe5pnN75Iu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:32:30Z
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@MikeBon No i am actively trying to engage and understand your views and discuss them.. you were doing fine but as of the last few messages seem to be quickly progressing towards a tantrum.
(DIR) Post #AV9H1tEV1LrC5fvm2S by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:41:06Z
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@freemo you know damn well that as I and others have said repeatedly the tax code is designed with tax write offs, credits, deferrals and other advantages that benefit the wealthy far greater than the ordinary American. To argue otherwise is disingenuous.
(DIR) Post #AV9HVpjsZjlDwSt2cy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-29T15:46:26Z
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@MikeBon except i didnt argue otherwise. I asked you to give an explicit example of a loophole and how it favors the rich. The fact your throwing a tantrum cause someone responded and was willing to explore your assertion says a lot about you though.
(DIR) Post #AV9HjGPSj3NoQMjzxA by MikeBon@mstdn.social
2023-04-29T15:48:51Z
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And as I said earlier that is an irrelevant question. I'm not throwing a tantrum just calling out your obvious childish tactic.
(DIR) Post #AVA6hOAK0wGFYsWRyi by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T01:20:02Z
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@freemo I did, here: https://sfba.social/@pmonks/110282526345680037 You changed the subject in your subsequent reply. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVAXyoVA31f2vWnqmu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T06:25:39Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon No this example was invslidated because the super rich, as we are discussing dont hover tax brackets by definition. And it isnt saving you money overall except in that edge case.
(DIR) Post #AVBHoVt2zvoOBq0C80 by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T14:58:50Z
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@freemo reread what I wrote in that particular post @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBIM6A39UV4FTyAgS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T15:05:17Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Dont be a passive aggressive ass. If you feel i misinterprited the discussion feel free to speak up. Otherwise lets not go there
(DIR) Post #AVBIiHjinP2EWIEZgO by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T15:09:22Z
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@freemo you didn’t read the post I linked, assumed it was a different one, and then addressed the wrong point in. If you wish to police how this discussion is conducted then I encourage you to engage with it in good faith and actually read waa is written than jumping to (wrong) conclusions. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBLCl1EgkWxvx5I6S by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T15:37:16Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Read it a fourth time now.. nope it says exactly what i thought it said...
(DIR) Post #AVBLZmF4J6UgO5WzHU by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T15:39:56Z
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@freemo perhaps your client isn’t functioning correctly, so I’ll literally reproduce the text again here:“for example one can’t claim charitable donation deductions if one is living paycheck-to-paycheck and deciding whether to pay rent or utilities this month - there’s no disposable income available to be making such donations”This comment isn’t about the wealthy, it’s about the poor. You still haven’t address that point (which was also one of the first one raised in this thread i.e. that these kinds of legal tax loopholes are _not_ available to all). @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBLhKCmQojzkW3lgm by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T15:41:53Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon So it says exactly what i thought it says.. as isaid before its not a tax advantage for the rich or anyone since you spend more in giving donations than you get in tax cuts. So neither the rich the poor nor anyone can exploit it to save on taxes, it isnt a net savings.
(DIR) Post #AVBLjfwWa8ULkNZqca by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T15:43:14Z
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@freemo you’re still missing the point: how can someone living paycheck-to-paycheck make a charitable donation in order to access this tax deduction, without neglecting their other financial obligations? @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBM4VUscA3jQma0uG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T15:45:01Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon They cant, nor can the rich because it isnt a tax advantage.. spending 100k on charity to save 10k on taxes isnt an advantage to the rich either nor is it a means to save money.
(DIR) Post #AVBMLuhy8KeUXq0Cbw by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T15:50:05Z
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@freemo so you’re retracting your earlier assertions, made here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282585223431110 and here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282585223431110 where you claim that everyone has access to these kinds of tax loopholes? @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBOGprouARJzUJg5w by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:10:59Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Nope.. both those statements still hold true. I was asking for an example where the rich could leverage loopholes to get out of taxes the poor cant. Since you dont save money by making charitable donations this does not satisfy the premise.
(DIR) Post #AVBOKJhgQiftObEdHc by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:12:15Z
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@freemo how does someone living paycheck-to-paycheck afford to make a charitable donation while still meeting their other financial obligations? @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBOM0mxj4HpJNVpaa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:12:31Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon In other words it isnt a tax loophole at all since you cant spend money and walk away saving more than you spend. Since it cant be exploited to reduce your overall costs its not a loophole for anyine
(DIR) Post #AVBOTdBlM0ZwQykIm8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:13:56Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon They dont, and you really arent listening.. how does a rich person use the loophole to save money? If they make 200 million and spend 10 million on charity in orser to save 1 million in taxes all they did was cost themselves 9 million. So it is not a loophole for the rich or the poor, it isnt a loophole for anyone...
(DIR) Post #AVBOmyBXVvpD3UrYOG by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:17:27Z
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@freemo we’ll get to your unrelated claim about the wealthy not benefiting from tax deductions soon. I’m still more interested in your earlier claim that the poor have equal access to these deductions. Am I right in thinking that in your latest reply you are indeed retracting that claim? @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBP0OGbr0Exi9dLns by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:19:50Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon I didnt say thry dont benefit from tax deductions.. if you cant e en listen to the basic things people say enough to repeat what they said accurately how do you expect people to keep interacting with you?I am not retracting the claim. The poor have equal access to charitable deductions. They engage in fewer of thrm so would use them less, but since its not a loophole or something a person can exploit to save money it isnt relevant to my claim.
(DIR) Post #AVBPcLvkzMGXT9yw7M by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:26:43Z
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@freemo I didn’t say you did. What you *did* say (here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282511567890244 and here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282585223431110), and which I’m disputing, is that everyone has *ACCESS* to these deductions.Do you still stand behind that claim?@MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBQ9xO8k5eTCOHW3E by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:32:45Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Yes everyone has ACCESS to the charitable giving deductions. And anyone who donates to charity is likely to leverage it, and should. But it isnt a money saver and since those two messages were in thr context of loopholes it is irrelevant either way.
(DIR) Post #AVBQETZ936pG9baG4u by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:33:36Z
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@freemo how does someone living paycheck-to-paycheck access this deduction? @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBQPjyoMY60FKxbzU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:35:38Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon The same way the rich do. There is a little form on your taxes hou write it in.
(DIR) Post #AVBQUxY5LDETmGwqJc by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:36:36Z
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@freemo explain the actual steps, in detail. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBQkCrEhn3PbKAyrg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:39:20Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon There is nothing to detail, you literall just put the total in the little space on your taxes then attach the receipts and itemized list of donations as a form 8283 which you only have to do for amounts over 500 if its under that you dont need to show proof but can still claim it.
(DIR) Post #AVBQrU29FAl6tlkYzI by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:40:39Z
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@freemo start from then receiving their paycheck. Let’s assume they have no disposable income. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBRIwW7S2213arX04 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:45:32Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon If they hav no disposable income and are so poor they can only afford enough food and shelter to live then they dont pay taxes as thry are below the threshold. Therefore they already have 0 taxes and there is nothing to grt cuts on.
(DIR) Post #AVBRsc3D1PEo0ULg2a by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T16:51:36Z
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@freemo that is incorrect. In the US, for 2022, the filing threshold is $12,950 while the poverty line is between $14,580 and ~$40,000, depending on state.But I notice that you’re dodging the question you were asked again, which is not approaching this discussion in good faith. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBRz4ATOaimwqp7tg by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-30T16:53:17.968157Z
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@freemo @pmonks @opendna @QasimRashid > I'm not abusing her, I'm teaching her a lesson about rispict
(DIR) Post #AVBS9OGdWNvcBId5MG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T16:55:06Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon You passed good faith a while ago, as im sure you see why your argument is nonsense... If you have not donated to anyone then you wont be writing off somethibg you never did. So they have access to the writeoff they just wont use it.. but since using it costs you more than it saves it is moot as has been pointed oit many tines since it isnt an advantage in the first place.
(DIR) Post #AVBSbYTRARbtwc2xiS by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T17:00:13Z
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@freemo as have you, by repeatedly dodging the questions you were asked. And since you’re not willing to do that, but instead deflect by changing the subject, let me spell this out for you:People who do not have disposable income cannot donate to charities as they don’t have the financial means to do so. This is absolutely an issue of “access”, in a very practical sense, and one that the wealthy do not share. Therefore your earlier, and repeated, claims that the poor have equal access to the tax avoidance loopholes used by the wealthy are laughably false. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBSjruWmkHgXlgMwS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T17:01:39Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon And as ive responded with cou tless times, since making charitabke donations costs you more money rsther than saving overall it is not a tax loophole or an advantage in anyway. So the fact that poor people dont make donations has no relevancy here.
(DIR) Post #AVBTEOVU9s2YKHWbDs by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T17:06:29Z
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@freemo that’s not a question of access, but of benefit. You repeatedly claimed that the poor have *access* to these loopholes, a claim I have repeatedly disputed and that you have repeatedly refused to defend. I’m beginning to think that you know it’s a false claim, but are unwilling or unable to admit that it’s false. @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBTyjflnQLxI9Qscq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T17:15:30Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Just to recap you think tbe rich have access to a loophole in taxes the poor dont have because they have the option to spend 10 million giving to charity to say 1 million in taxes them. Somehow being able to loose 9 million total is sone sort of tax loophole they use to keep their wealth...Okkkkkk.... pretty sure you know yojr talking nonsense
(DIR) Post #AVBUHOzcuIhoemcZhw by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T17:18:59Z
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@freemo again, you’re confusing “access” and “benefit”, and I’ve only been focusing on the former thus far. You do understand that these are different things, right? @MikeBon
(DIR) Post #AVBUO3KRquAFUfX1MW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T17:20:09Z
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@pmonks @MikeBon Call it whatever you want you do understand your stance is nonsense i hope to the original point of rich having access to loopholes that get them out of taxes, which this is not since it isnt saving them money...
(DIR) Post #AVBUtkzrXtrPu91LE0 by pmonks@sfba.social
2023-04-30T17:25:51Z
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@freemo I’m indeed open to the possibility that my stance is nonsense, otherwise I wouldn’t have continued this conversation for this long.However you’ve done nothing to convince me that that’s the case, in part because you refuse to answer clarifying questions when asked, change the subject at will, and in your latest response appear to think that the meanings of word don’t matter. I’m not sure this conversation has any further value.
(DIR) Post #AVBV6pK4lzJj5OhvBg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T17:28:11Z
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@pmonks if you cant see why the rich having the ability to spend 10k on charity to get 1k off their taxes is not a loophole or a way to take advantage then i really dont know what to tell you... you keep trying to muddy the water with semantics and its so obvious it just looks absurd.