Post AUtKUKw8nqBpSEF0r2 by luca@sfba.social
 (DIR) More posts by luca@sfba.social
 (DIR) Post #AUsHsRs4B9nGtFBIIa by shriramk@mastodon.social
       2023-04-20T17:13:52Z
       
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       This doesn't get enough attention. It boggles my mind how hard it is for educators to give students a clean, simple, consistent, cross-platform Python programming experience, which is supposed to be so "easy". Fromhttps://www.noenthuda.com/2023/04/20/the-second-great-wall-of-programming/by @karthiks@twitter.com
       
 (DIR) Post #AUsHsVrrJs0LHl7BWy by dabeaz@mastodon.social
       2023-04-20T17:41:32Z
       
       0 likes, 1 repeats
       
       @shriramk There was a brief moment in time when Python really was a "it fits your brain", batteries included, kind of easy thing that basically just worked all by itself.  It's a comforting sort of nostagia to be sure. You can still kind of use Python in this way, but nobody does and they'll think you're a freak if you do.
       
 (DIR) Post #AUsJHl3E6a1xZN28hs by monkey1@fosstodon.org
       2023-04-20T18:02:38Z
       
       1 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @dabeaz @shriramk Yes! I started with 1.4 and then did a lot of work on 1.5.2 and just loved it.Python's surface got too big for me to hold in my head and the emphasis on OO in the ecosystem and in general coupled with the lack of immutable data structures pushed me away.When I tried to use it again with a Peter Norvig style, OO-loving colleagues objected.Moved to Clojure which being an unknown allowed me to be left alone.
       
 (DIR) Post #AUtKUJVs61aB2SwWGm by luca@sfba.social
       2023-04-21T05:54:25Z
       
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       @shriramk I tried to love R but it's not really a programming language. There are simple things it does not know how to do, like indexing a table with column names that are themselves variables so you can write generic functions that work on any column.  Well there is a way to do that but it's so horrible it doesn't really count.  It goes up to a level of semi-power and stops. But yes, it was a terrible idea to do Python 3, and it's a terrible idea to change any reasonably successful language.  It is a way of discounting all the work that has been done -- and with it carries the message that ... all work done in it is temporary. But I have no problem getting a stable Python for all students...
       
 (DIR) Post #AUtKUKLczayzcz9qwS by shriramk@mastodon.social
       2023-04-21T13:40:31Z
       
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       @luca My colleagues have not figured out how to get that stable env for students.Re. R…yeah.https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.04265
       
 (DIR) Post #AUtKUKw8nqBpSEF0r2 by luca@sfba.social
       2023-04-21T18:35:59Z
       
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       @shriramk But yes, my students in my web dev class do fine, but for beginning students, that's why I built our Python class around Google Colab.  No env to set up, automatic revisioning (which keeps students honests), the homework is shared with TAs so they can see what the students are doing in real time, etc etc.  Works fairly well.
       
 (DIR) Post #AUtKULTSnwqR7ZpcnI by csdummi@babka.social
       2023-04-21T18:40:57Z
       
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       @luca @shriramk I agree, Jupyter Notebooks are a great way to introduce people to Python and skipping all the env troubles that come with it.How does automatic revisioning keep students honest?
       
 (DIR) Post #AUtKUM0mo3V2mvQEjY by shriramk@mastodon.social
       2023-04-21T22:16:14Z
       
       1 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @csdummi @luca Notebooks are a pedagogic choice, and not everyone wants to make that. Especially given the semantic problems with Jupyter.