Post AUmdfmbYoQ1LTP4CkS by chemoelectric@masto.ai
(DIR) More posts by chemoelectric@masto.ai
(DIR) Post #AUmIysh2In7movtSMa by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T13:44:34Z
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@tshirtman oh yeah, I was just talking about this with @chemoelectric - it's a lesson from W3schools, it's their fault! :flan_laugh:
(DIR) Post #AUmbf9Ta5lOED2uE2C by tshirtman@mas.to
2023-04-18T17:13:56Z
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@calculsoberic @chemoelectric ugh, w3school is still terrible? I'm so surprised 😄
(DIR) Post #AUmbkrokeufHBDX8BE by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T17:14:58Z
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@tshirtman yeah, apparently 😆 have a better python course recommendation? @chemoelectric
(DIR) Post #AUmcp5dNKbHJ8xn1VI by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:26:54Z
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@calculsoberic Yeah, use a different language! 😛 LOL.(The other day I avoided using SciPy for some numerical stuff by using GNU Octave, although of course it turned out the simplest solution would have been to use the original Fortran. :) I’ve now translated the Fortran to C for use in an ATS program.)
(DIR) Post #AUmcz2pQcKWvL1ArS4 by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T17:28:42Z
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@chemoelectric oh really? :flan_laugh: please understand, that some of these languages are new to me, so the finer nuances are going to be new also. But thank you, nonetheless.
(DIR) Post #AUmdfmbYoQ1LTP4CkS by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:28:17Z
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@calculsoberic (I used f2c and some massaging of the result. I didn’t translate it by hand.)
(DIR) Post #AUmdfnBidywbHXz56m by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:36:04Z
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@calculsoberic Python IS very difficult to learn IMO. It makes SIMPLE things (such as closures) POSSIBLE but almost unfathomably COMPLICATED. And it does such things for no reason that I can discern.It is as if someone set out to devise a rival to Scheme for a language that can do everything that is simple, but then purposely made them difficult.(And, in fact, there is the Hy language, which proves by example that the C-Python runtime is naturally Lisp-like.)
(DIR) Post #AUmeNtrlAz4GjegGDA by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:44:20Z
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@calculsoberic I’m not really serious. Knowing Python is very useful if only because it is one of the languages used nowadays to convey algorithms.
(DIR) Post #AUmeSw2sV7LWwUHXrE by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T17:45:20Z
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@chemoelectric That's reason enough - some languages I think give you a good basis to learn other ones as well.
(DIR) Post #AUmemTZM5HscPtn56m by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:46:44Z
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@calculsoberic I’m basically saying it is not really a ‘first language’ sort of language. And it is one that people use largely because it has been interfaced with a lot of Fortran libraries, but is easier to use than Fortran itself is. :)
(DIR) Post #AUmemU7O2l6O7RiG9Y by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T17:48:51Z
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@chemoelectric Oh, I see. It's tricky because there are so many directions you can go in, honestly
(DIR) Post #AUmezjFx4UmEpl2BzE by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:51:15Z
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@calculsoberic I don’t think it is a GOOD language for conveying algorithms, but it’s one people use (such as on Wikipedia and Rosetta Code).Indeed, the sole Python I’ve done for Rosetta Code I purposely made be a good prototype for coding in any other language. (Python is CAPABLE of being used to write a simple procedural program, without OO or anything like that, and so that is what I did.)
(DIR) Post #AUmfZoeQUWXZzSgpCy by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:52:52Z
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@calculsoberic Yeah. Were I teaching programming via Python, I might completely avoid the subject of ‘classes’!
(DIR) Post #AUmfZpG0Eob9s0GpmK by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T17:56:30Z
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@calculsoberic BTW a good approach to learning Python might be to go to Rosetta Code and try to write one’s own versions of the simple tasks, using online references.It’s basically how I learn to use languages. I have gotten much better at m4 by writing Rosetta Code tasks in it, despite the ridiculousness of using m4 to write programs. :) (It’s not MEANT to be used for that.)
(DIR) Post #AUmfZpok9eO5bkWZvc by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T17:57:44Z
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@chemoelectric OK, I might do that! I find that playing around with them actually gets you better at them in the long run, somehow...
(DIR) Post #AUmfpMPXFtQB2R8Xpo by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:00:35Z
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@calculsoberic Yes, and it can and will present you with situations where your program does things you neither expected nor wanted.For instance, a string is a sequence, therefore you will write something where you expect the code to sequence through strings, and instead you get a stream of individual characters.(Icon has a similar situation I fell prey to recently: I accidentally was treating a string as a set of characters.)
(DIR) Post #AUmgFAmv5iooWINoQ4 by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:05:12Z
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@calculsoberic I have difficulty going in sequence anymore. I learn new languages simply by writing simple programs in them and leafing around the resources available.I may have learnt Python that way originally, but it was so long ago I do not remember. But I’ve definitely learnt what I know of Scheme, Ada, Common Lisp, Standard ML, Mercury, etc., that way. The last language I learnt ‘sequentially’ was probably C in the 1980s! :)
(DIR) Post #AUmgo4KN6RnGcPfZMO by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:11:33Z
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@calculsoberic What’s the worst that can happen? Today’s computers are almost impossible to break with a program unless you go out of your way to do it.
(DIR) Post #AUmh0ChlmXKq4kOsEa by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T18:13:45Z
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@chemoelectric that's true! Ironically, I somehow broke my dad's computer when I was a kid with the command line :flan_evil:
(DIR) Post #AUmhKi42tlMN7tb6um by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:17:27Z
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@calculsoberic Before my time you had things like big disk drives getting into resonance states and snapping their axles, then going through walls and nearly killing people. If the anecdotes I’ve heard are true.One anecdote is that no one believed a person claiming a computer had an instruction to put the brake on the memory drum. So they demonstrated it by writing a program. Disaster ensued. A drum was a fast, heavy flywheel (with magnetic memory on it).
(DIR) Post #AUmhipx1EAdUXJoceu by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:20:38Z
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@calculsoberic Other anecdotes are about people causing mayhem by ignorantly typing commands into the text editor TECO. (I once had access to TECO and tried that but no mayhem ensued. :) Emacs was originally written as TECO macros.)
(DIR) Post #AUmhiqULEHI6CfPEbA by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T18:21:49Z
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@chemoelectric You could theoretically write viruses in it, but I don't think you could just do it by typing in random nonsense...
(DIR) Post #AUmiFGFyxU6zOC99H6 by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:27:33Z
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@calculsoberic Just don’t carelessly write programs that fiddle with the filesystem (moving files, deleting files, etc.).With IBM PCs I suppose you could easily mess up a hard drive so you couldn’t run anything. (Though the thing I’m thinking about is when, at work, the boss went around turning on overclocking on everyone’s computers and what happened is my computer started all by itself destroying READONLY floppy disks!)
(DIR) Post #AUmieRPWcqGRDpcJN2 by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T18:32:13Z
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@chemoelectric awww that sucks!!!!
(DIR) Post #AUmjelHIrJbmnHUJ0q by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:43:30Z
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@calculsoberic Yup. They were custom-made 486 computers, not like plug-and-play DELL stuff, and the BIOS had these settings in it, but that didn’t mean you should USE those settings!The computers ran like blazes--and probably glitched like crazy, too.
(DIR) Post #AUmlKmvLEKWC0yoqGW by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T18:56:13Z
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@calculsoberic As for TECO, I found how to get to it from Emacs, but the computer center and math dept probably appreciated me not breaking the TOPS-20 machine thereby.I had the account so I could use APL but probably only Professor Bumby himself ever used APL for anything, in that class. :) And the availability of APL-capable terminals was severely limited.
(DIR) Post #AUmlMWvlfB1yzZqhvM by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T19:02:35Z
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@chemoelectric is it still possible to use it at present?
(DIR) Post #AUmrwExuXEUTQJGLjM by tshirtman@mas.to
2023-04-18T20:16:18Z
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@calculsoberic @chemoelectric IMHO Python is a really good language, not just to get started, but also to use day to day, i understand it's not for everyone, but it's really one of the easiest to learn, and a very flexible option.I tend to recommend https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ to learn python, though i didn't read it myself (i learned python long ago), but because a lot of people i trust said good things about it.Someone recommended https://cs50.harvard.edu/python/2022/ yesterday to a similar question.
(DIR) Post #AUmuJmAxQQuizaiQUK by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T20:42:56Z
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@calculsoberic The computer? Or APL?
(DIR) Post #AUmuLyd06C9eBwsk52 by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-04-18T20:43:22Z
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@chemoelectric APL
(DIR) Post #AUmuqaqmYOw9QJvY4O by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-04-18T20:48:50Z
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@calculsoberic https://tryapl.org/
(DIR) Post #AVD2oOh0dT78shmI7M by Crazzyfoxxgodd@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T06:39:35Z
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@chemoelectric @calculsoberic IKR
(DIR) Post #AVD2oPbNFuCVhW9IyO by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T11:20:37Z
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@Crazzyfoxxgodd I started taking Learn Python the Hard Way, is that any better? 😆 @chemoelectric
(DIR) Post #AVDApRrr7FiEeQrazo by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T12:50:24Z
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@calculsoberic @Crazzyfoxxgodd Books on programming languages used to look different than they do now.Actually, the way Niklaus Wirth would write such a book was to write a book about algorithms, and keep rewriting it in his latest language. So it started in Pascal (I still have my hardcover) and ended up in Oberon. But it was a book ABOUT ALGORITHMS.
(DIR) Post #AVDCj8DPTC6ps53pWy by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T13:11:41Z
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@chemoelectric those sound interesting! @Crazzyfoxxgodd
(DIR) Post #AVDJq0Wf9mtVjGIAS0 by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:31:14Z
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@calculsoberic Grab a PDF! https://www.google.com/search?q=niklaus+wirth+algorithms+and+data+structures+pdf&client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=EsxPZNH2G7PNkPIP98eh4As&ved=0ahUKEwjRx5LdqdT-AhWzJkQIHfdjCLwQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=niklaus+wirth+algorithms+and+data+structures+pdf&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIHCAAQigUQQzIGCAAQFhAeMggIABCKBRCGAzoKCAAQRxDWBBCwAzoKCC4QigUQsAMQQ0oECEEYAFDoAljbCGDhCmgBcAF4AIABswOIAZUKkgEHMi0yLjEuMZgBAKABAcgBBsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp(They are good books for learning to program in a particular language, although Wirth himself may have written better ones for that purpose. I don’t remember. But they are not reference manuals. :) )
(DIR) Post #AVDKVcJ3av0AmBljRA by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:38:55Z
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@chemoelectric Thanks! Sometimes I get stuck when learning a programming language and don't know where to go from there, have you experienced this?
(DIR) Post #AVDKf3lIsuC2XCU3BQ by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:40:33Z
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@calculsoberic Of course! :)
(DIR) Post #AVDKu5szGo7LSvFLYO by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:43:09Z
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@chemoelectric I guess most programmers do.
(DIR) Post #AVDL329oVCkoVXNbhA by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:42:37Z
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@calculsoberic My latest discouragement was earlier today, looking at the manual for gforth, and being overwhelmed by how much more there is in FORTH than there used to be. I said to myself, ‘Screw this,’ and decided not to do any Rosetta Code in FORTH anytime soon.I mean, FORTH is a language such that I’d actually made my own from scratch, back in the day. But now it’s this big thing.
(DIR) Post #AVDL7oRQvOj5PttrFo by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:45:50Z
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@chemoelectric when they get more complicated, it can always feel more overwhelming, right?? (probably sounds obvious)
(DIR) Post #AVDLILITciYyDDjQS8 by teleportaura@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:46:33Z
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@chemoelectric now you've discouraged me from writing a FORTH implementation for my OS :(is it really that bad?@calculsoberic
(DIR) Post #AVDLILqVaBmjulebUu by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:47:43Z
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@teleportaura hopefully not! maybe just more complicated than it used to be. @chemoelectric
(DIR) Post #AVDLWC7WXTCjo0DJ8i by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:50:10Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura Yes, I didn’t want to have to learn, for instance, how to do floating point calculations in FORTH. Also take into account I have a migraine headache today.
(DIR) Post #AVDMA7P9UUuIlOUpjU by teleportaura@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:51:25Z
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@chemoelectrici hope you get well soon!@calculsoberic
(DIR) Post #AVDMA7v3ZsQaMLQJSi by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:56:02Z
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@teleportaura @calculsoberic Thanks. It’s been bad since the equinox. :( I’m a chronic migraineur and so used to it, though.
(DIR) Post #AVDMA8aX5fbYQypR6u by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T14:57:26Z
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@chemoelectric ugh, well I guess that's some consolation... @teleportaura
(DIR) Post #AVDNyfmq283jpZFHRQ by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:54:29Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura If you want to make your own, this is a pow(EXCELLENT,1000) book to have: https://www.amazon.com/Threaded-Interpretive-Languages-Design-Implementation/dp/007038360XAlthough I got it when it was in print.
(DIR) Post #AVDNygWDJQM66ITWAS by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T14:58:59Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura I typed in all of 8080 fig-FORTH (plus my modifications, not all of them correct) for my TRS-80. I had to assemble it in pieces or something, I don’t remember.A little later I made my own FORTH from scratch for 8086/88. That was a subroutine-threaded FORTH, the kind that doesn’t need an interpreter but whose code is kind of big.
(DIR) Post #AVDNyh4xEG91q2jGJk by teleportaura@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T15:00:09Z
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@chemoelectric man, I wish I had been alive when the 8086 came out@calculsoberic
(DIR) Post #AVDNyiu2RobLUldZa4 by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T15:05:43Z
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@teleportaura @calculsoberic I was alive when the 4004 came out. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004(I would have been 10 years old.)
(DIR) Post #AVDNyjZrwI3taVCymW by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T15:17:46Z
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@chemoelectric oh wow. I was born the year it was discontinued! :lego_laugh: @teleportaura
(DIR) Post #AVDONtAzO95Kb5Z8aG by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T15:22:19Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura That would make you still older than I was when I first needed bifocals. :)
(DIR) Post #AVDObQNlEyovLezgTQ by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T15:24:11Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura I think for a long time most microcontroller applications were still 4-bit CPUs.
(DIR) Post #AVDOoEOF8ezFv5KHSa by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T15:27:04Z
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@chemoelectric My first computer looked a lot like this one @teleportaura
(DIR) Post #AVDP1JA6hwYsU5wwWO by teleportaura@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T15:29:29Z
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@calculsoberic my first computer was an old laptop running Windows ME that my parents had used before that and then just kinda forgotten about until they gave it to meafter using that thing for a while I got a modern laptop a few years ago which now serves me as a home server and after that I got my current machine@chemoelectric
(DIR) Post #AVDg3slezoiIiIKPCq by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T18:40:24Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura My first computer looked just like this:
(DIR) Post #AVDg60wXZRqgeGQxUW by calculsoberic@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T18:40:49Z
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@chemoelectric I love it!! it's awesome!! @teleportaura
(DIR) Post #AVDgH0DmaxHNawjqPg by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T18:42:15Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura If you watch ‘Married With Children’, you will see they have in their kitchen a television set that looks a whole lot like that monitor. It’s not an accident. That monitor is just a cheap RCA monochrome TV with the tuner circuitry left out.
(DIR) Post #AVDgweRtvykgERCZtI by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T18:49:42Z
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@calculsoberic @teleportaura It sucked in myriad ways. A great many ways. And could not run for days without a glitch, so no long computations.I modified mine to give it lowercase. Designed the mod, had a friend solder it for me (he was better at it) after his (RCA-employed EE) dad checked my design.I ended up with more RAM and floppies before parting with it in the late 1980s.
(DIR) Post #AVDiLhRq1MVKj7gEaG by teleportaura@mstdn.social
2023-05-01T15:27:19Z
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@chemoelectric that's interesting. I've thought about going into embedded development once I'm out of school so maybe I'll meet some less-than-32-bit CPUs there as well (though I don't know anything about embedded)@calculsoberic
(DIR) Post #AVDiLi1zqvQaXGb6wa by chemoelectric@masto.ai
2023-05-01T19:04:41Z
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@teleportaura @calculsoberic There’s all kinds of ‘embedded’. There’s toasters and there’s cruise missiles.