Post AUe08riPgB3MFfBVg0 by slothrop@chaos.social
(DIR) More posts by slothrop@chaos.social
(DIR) Post #AUdzULRuE1GKb28rC4 by webmink@meshed.cloud
2023-04-14T13:26:48Z
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An unintended side effect of GDPR is the way it has encouraged smaller international publications to block Europe instead of working out what they need to do to comply.
(DIR) Post #AUdzpMcx2XJkKcKZoO by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-04-14T13:30:20Z
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@webmink *unintended, but entirely predictable
(DIR) Post #AUe08riPgB3MFfBVg0 by slothrop@chaos.social
2023-04-14T13:34:08Z
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@webmink For journalistic publications in particular, this is a red flag. If they don’t bother to read up on the relatively few things they’re required to do in order to comply with the #GDPR, then I won’t rely on them to do any other kind of fact-checking either.
(DIR) Post #AUe0RyYSTUCExwdnBA by Akki@sauropods.win
2023-04-14T13:36:35Z
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@webmink I know of one large US website that blocks you from logging in from Europe but if you use VPN you can log in ... So aren't they violating it by keeping European data?
(DIR) Post #AUe19FStTiw9rdfjV2 by terenc3@troet.cafe
2023-04-14T13:44:29Z
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@webmink I remember that a few news sites offered a special version for EU visitors without any ads and trackers. It was beautiful
(DIR) Post #AUe4mq2bitk0SVwjuS by hedders@mas.to
2023-04-14T14:25:58Z
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@webmink to be honest, if you don’t have much in the way of an audience in Europe and resources are finite, then not spending the money to find out how to comply with a European law seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, no?
(DIR) Post #AUe5tz0isAUgG72Gem by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T14:40:21Z
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@hedders @webmink If you don't have any presence in Europe, how are you subject to European laws in the first place?
(DIR) Post #AUe64L8NTO59llYRii by hedders@mas.to
2023-04-14T14:42:12Z
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@mansr @webmink GDPR can have extra-territorial effect in some circumstances. Whether that means it could actually be enforced against you is another question. But some smaller businesses just decided that they didn’t want to put that to the test.
(DIR) Post #AUe6JG3OdyiUMBL1sW by ted@social.gould.cx
2023-04-14T14:43:15Z
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@webmink my local newspaper did that. I asked them about it, and they even mentioned that the web development firm they used is based in the UK (at the time part of the EU).
(DIR) Post #AUe6QG4SyhRoRBB0ng by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T14:43:19Z
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@mansr @hedders @webmink Article 3(2) GDPR purports to give it extra-territorial effect:https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/679/article/3
(DIR) Post #AUe6QHEQf90k2MqTy4 by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T14:46:11Z
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@neil @hedders @webmink If that's really how it works, it would imply that every European website must comply with Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, etc laws as well. I really hope that isn't the case.
(DIR) Post #AUe6ZZpCu2gAJETzGK by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T14:47:50Z
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@mansr @hedders @webmink The EU GDPR doesn't assert that every website everywhere in the world must comply with it but, yes, some countries think that their laws extend extraterritorially.
(DIR) Post #AUe6soyKoHq8n0vccS by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T14:51:19Z
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@neil @hedders @webmink Insisting that our laws be respected elsewhere is dangerous since that door goes both ways. Even if there is some way it could be enforced, I don't think it should.
(DIR) Post #AUe76EynQUZLDNXjqi by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T14:53:44Z
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@mansr @hedders @webmink I am pretty sympathetic to that point of view, generally, but it's not easy: if two companies, one in the USA and one in Germany, provide the same service to people in Germany (e.g. a social networking site), and are functionally indistinguishable, but the one in Germany is subject to a more rigorous legal framework, it'll likely be harder for them to compete with the less-regulated provider in the USA, providing the same service.
(DIR) Post #AUe7b6aAhG8Y9Gk6CG by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T14:59:21Z
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@neil @hedders @webmink Well, that sucks for the German company, of course. However, the remedy, in my view, is not to insist that German laws also apply in the USA. Next you'll have some Texas court banning books from European libraries.
(DIR) Post #AUe7jagOfTelothUvY by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T15:00:51Z
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@mansr @hedders @webmink > However, the remedy, in my view, is not to insist that German laws also apply in the USAWhat remedy should there be, in your view?
(DIR) Post #AUe7khjHxDy5xqaHVw by hedders@mas.to
2023-04-14T14:54:09Z
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@neil @mansr @webmink … plus most laws don’t assert that they apply extraterritorially and even the GDPR does so only in certain circumstances. It is becoming more common though, especially in laws trying to regulate the web.Some countries do of course have a long history of routinely trying to apply their laws overseas, most notably the USA.
(DIR) Post #AUe7kiI1s3l1haq1fE by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T15:01:06Z
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@hedders @neil @webmink I find absurd the notion that a law in one country can unilaterally declare itself to apply in another country. Then again, I'm an engineer, not a lawyer.
(DIR) Post #AUe7tiZ0Dqt99p4Sae by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T15:02:34Z
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@mansr @hedders @webmink > I find absurd the notion that a law in one country can unilaterally declare itself to apply in another country.That doesn't mean that it does apply, or could be enforced effectively, of course.(And there's a large body of public international law, dealing with this kind of thing!)
(DIR) Post #AUe88XZpLwbNQVWaxs by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T15:05:23Z
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@neil @hedders @webmink All I know is that wishful thinking rarely solves anything.
(DIR) Post #AUe8AJYCTOf0VJbqhU by webmink@meshed.cloud
2023-04-14T15:03:28Z
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@mansr @mansr The EU laws are not being made to apply in the USA. They apply in the EU, to the relationship the site owner has with an individual who is located in the EU, which seems perfectly reasonable. The US site can abuse its non-EU customers any way it wants (as long as they are not in California).@neil @hedders @hedders @neil
(DIR) Post #AUe8NVxfdp4klBojy4 by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T15:08:05Z
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@webmink @neil @hedders If the foreign company has some kind of contract with the local resident, I suppose such an argument could be made. Does visiting a website imply a legal contract between the visitor and the site operator?
(DIR) Post #AUe8O8HVAXW9bhO79c by hedders@mas.to
2023-04-14T15:08:08Z
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@mansr @neil the fact that the law says that it does so doesn’t mean it actually _works_ practically, in the sense that a local court in country 2 would actually enforce a judgment or regulatory enforcement action under the laws in country 1. But it’s not as uncommon as you might think. There are international treaties governing things like the enforcement of court judgments across borders. It can be done.
(DIR) Post #AUe8SJ5OwGjQHAibke by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T15:08:55Z
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@mansr @webmink @hedders (Merely providing a website doesn't trigger Article 3(2) EU GDPR.)
(DIR) Post #AUe8lrBKOdcbWWoSG0 by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T15:12:30Z
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@neil @webmink @hedders Oh well, I should probably stop before I make (more of) a fool of myself.
(DIR) Post #AUe8wcjQSgDTtQtbVY by hedders@mas.to
2023-04-14T15:14:26Z
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@mansr @neil You're not making a fool of yourself! These are perfectly sensible and reasonable points to make and questions to ask. The law isn't always especially sensible, and is occasionally underpants-on-the-head insane.
(DIR) Post #AUe9XPNJ5IqzBN5eDI by neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk
2023-04-14T15:18:58Z
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@hedders @mansr Indeed.And, as I say, I also struggle with some purported extra-territorial overreaches.
(DIR) Post #AUe9XQ5cQYIbOnp2HY by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T15:21:05Z
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@neil @hedders My only real point was that if we insist that others follow our laws, we should expect to receive similar demands in return. We probably don't want that.
(DIR) Post #AUeAbOrv0b8mizsMOu by hedders@mas.to
2023-04-14T15:33:00Z
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@mansr @neil we kind of get that already, from the USA anyhow. And it’s more about expecting outfits who do business with people in our countries (e.g. by providing them an online service) to abide by our laws in their dealings with those people, and trying to solve that problem in the context of the global web.(I once upset a room full of trainees by referring to art 3(2) GDPR as the “fuck Zuck” clause!)
(DIR) Post #AUeAdTmNioMSXBHGBE by steve@mastodon.nexusuk.org
2023-04-14T15:33:23Z
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@mansr @neil @hedders Plenty of countries already make those kinds of demands. The reality is that those demands are largely unenforceable, so can be ignored. What it does do is potentially:1. prevent company directors who have broken those laws from travelling to certain countries, for fear of being arrested; and2. prevent people from breaking their domestic laws while they are temporarily abroad.I'm not totally sure that either of these are bad ideas, TBH.
(DIR) Post #AUeBQAvIcKKcF5fViq by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T15:42:10Z
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@steve @neil @hedders I think those are terrible ideas. Suppose you're a doctor who has provided legal abortion services in the UK. Now you'll be arrested if you travel to Texas. Or how about an Iranian woman who has ditched the head scarf on a trip abroad? Are you happy for her to be arrested when she returns home?
(DIR) Post #AUeBrWy6lGJOQw1hZ2 by aimaz@mstdn.social
2023-04-14T15:43:51Z
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@webmink I’ve not looked recently but a large proportion of local news websites in the US just blocked EU and UK.
(DIR) Post #AUeDJYV2lHn1FFMJEm by steve@mastodon.nexusuk.org
2023-04-14T16:03:23Z
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@mansr @neil @hedders What about someone who travels abroad to abuse children? Should they be arrested on their return? How about someone who goes abroad to commit terrorism? I can certainly see both sides, and whilst I think the way the US is handling abortions at the moment is terrible, to a lot of Texans I'm sure that abortion is just as abhorrent as child abuse.
(DIR) Post #AUeFUlulQSOZwarigC by webmink@meshed.cloud
2023-04-14T16:25:56Z
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@aimazIt's gradually getting better.
(DIR) Post #AUeG6FfXlJ6IwNcNbk by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T16:34:36Z
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@steve @neil @hedders Sorry, but it's not possible to have only good laws reach outside their country.
(DIR) Post #AUeGKbKk0jHcBajKkK by etchedpixels@mastodon.social
2023-04-14T16:37:11Z
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@mansr @neil @hedders @webmink The US thinks its laws apply everywhere already.The obvious approach is that if you don't comply with local law you don't provide a service there. Just like physical goods and everything else before the internet
(DIR) Post #AUeGM82btGE9uryhAu by steve@mastodon.nexusuk.org
2023-04-14T16:37:29Z
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@mansr @neil @hedders That's basically what I was saying...
(DIR) Post #AUeGXNm5jXkltlcMKm by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2023-04-14T16:39:31Z
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@etchedpixels @mansr @neil @hedders @webmink Which is what's happening on a lot of US news web sites refusing to serve EU.
(DIR) Post #AUeGeQWFvZkCRCZNp2 by etchedpixels@mastodon.social
2023-04-14T16:40:46Z
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@penguin42 @mansr @neil @hedders @webmink Exactly - just like a vast number of EU companies refuse to deal with Americans because of the litigation madhouse.
(DIR) Post #AUeGmCp2jjAUH34C1Y by etchedpixels@mastodon.social
2023-04-14T16:39:51Z
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@webmink In many ways the rules of VAT are a much bigger barrier to doing business in the EU than GDPR. I'm looking forward to the shitshow when they try and apply the upcoming carbon taxes to import/export of online services, which they pretty much have to because of AI eating the world
(DIR) Post #AUeIODmdi8lsDIdKgy by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T17:00:15Z
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@steve @neil @hedders Well, in that case you seem (correct me if I'm wrong) to be saying that we should accept the bad as a price for the good. I'm saying the opposite, that we need to forgo the good in order to avoid the bad.
(DIR) Post #AUeKLsRAIyVpL1bBx2 by steve@mastodon.nexusuk.org
2023-04-14T17:22:14Z
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@mansr @neil @hedders no, I'm pointing out that it isn't all bad
(DIR) Post #AUeMhWjTsmdCIlcKB6 by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-04-14T17:48:36Z
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@steve @neil @hedders It's important to consider the potential for harm at least as much as the benefit. Otherwise we might as well imprison everybody just to be sure that no criminal walks free.
(DIR) Post #AUeRTbDcuDYhvqtacK by thebigklosowski@toot.bldrweb.org
2023-04-14T18:40:22Z
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@webmink #GDPR was a terribly written law. It ended up handing massive advantages to Google and Facebook, while proving really onerous for small and independent publishers. It was the opposite of what was intended. It's something that gets written by bureaucrats that don't understand technology. The new #DMA requirements are better designed to slow big tech companies and to be protectionist for EU businesses.