Post AUTfaLLc6QDYRXPrU0 by lmrocha@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by lmrocha@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AUNoffZmg4dhkysSOm by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-06T18:11:50Z
4 likes, 4 repeats
Seems pretty clear to me, want to place limits on it, get support for a new amendment.#2A
(DIR) Post #AUNowCSoAd62OAUrKa by Lino0876@theres.life
2023-04-06T18:14:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Hi. So do you like our 2 A in it's current form? I say leave it alone. JMO
(DIR) Post #AUNp68GicdRUH3Zu0e by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-06T18:16:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Lino0876 if it were enforced sure, it seems its not.
(DIR) Post #AUNpJL0kYcIvYhPDKC by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-06T18:19:05Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo right on. And before someone posts the "well regulated militia" argument, the militia at that time was the able-bodied male population. The 2a is definitely about the general public being armed and trained to repel either invasion or tyranny.If the Federal government wanted to take the 2a seriously, they should be expanding the Civilian Marksmanship Program and offering free rifle lessons in high school.
(DIR) Post #AUNpP5NlZsFCpAuccq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-06T18:20:04Z
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@mike805 The well regulated militia is clearly an exemplary clause and not a qualifying clause
(DIR) Post #AUNpaMzWRqmMcgx91M by Lino0876@theres.life
2023-04-06T18:22:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Well I think it is. Not sure if you seen/heard the studient protests at schools across our fruited plane, but those kids are sending the wrong MSG. We need more good guys/gals with guns at our schools. Sorry to also say this, but this crap will continue. Our world is only getting wors sir/mam.
(DIR) Post #AUNpdMZ2Uc74APzcZ6 by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-06T18:22:41Z
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@freemo also "the people"in the 2a definitely refers to the actual human beings living in this territory. So that quashes any "collective right" claim.The use of "the people" to refer to some theoretical group right is really a Marxist invention. The founders said what they meant and meant what they said.
(DIR) Post #AUNq8hJHPV0HUCYyG0 by JonKramer@qoto.org
2023-04-06T18:28:21Z
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@freemo I don't think even the most radical of the founding fathers would agree to giving hand grenades to 3 year olds. I would be hard pressed to find anyone who would support that now.
(DIR) Post #AUNqGyII9E1qTh2vRI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-06T18:29:50Z
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@JonKramer sure they would, thry let random people of any age buy heavy artillary at the time.
(DIR) Post #AUNtl9P7hkJzUAK8OG by JonKramer@qoto.org
2023-04-06T19:08:56Z
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@freemo any random Caucasian male over the age of 12, maybe. There is zero chance they would have allowed sales to women, Africans, or anyone that posed any credible threat to the state or propertied white men. That would include hand grenades to children. Who were, in most cases, not allowed to buy anything, although property could be held in trust for them.
(DIR) Post #AUNtwbhQqMpuQYLmV6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-06T19:10:58Z
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@JonKramer very likely true for the majority of founding fathers at least.
(DIR) Post #AUNuLI4MxsHcmkqhfc by JonKramer@qoto.org
2023-04-06T19:15:27Z
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@freemo I don't think there is any founding father who would have disagreed with my assessment. I am a solid supporter of the 2nd, BTW. I favor giving a shotgun and 50 rounds to the homeless and immigrants to defend themselves. From each other, vigilantes, and the state. But there are limits. The insane should not be armed. Children should not be armed. The 2nd has limits.
(DIR) Post #AUOSgDqjFLtgDhcalk by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-06T21:20:32Z
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@mike805 @freemo even if that were the case (it's isn't), you still have them "well-regulated" bit. Also, if the first part is to be taken for sacred, by your interpretation then only white men should have the right to bear arms? The reification of an old document is a choice. One that is killing our children. Guns are the number one cause of death for children in America! Our life expectancy is way lower than all other advanced countries. Choosing this mortality for an interpretation of an old text is the definition of a death cult. One that is imposed on a majority of Americans who do not want it.
(DIR) Post #AUOSgEvjEFUTZUy6CW by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-06T21:29:17Z
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@lmrocha @freemo then change it. The Founders put in a procedure to change the Constitution. If a strong majority really does oppose the public ownership of guns, then you should have no trouble getting an amendment passed, right? A previous generation of progressive activists actually managed to get a ban on alcohol passed as an amendment, so it's not impossible.I don't agree with you, but campaigning for an amendment would be the honest approach.
(DIR) Post #AUOSgFTPD2QfFwizh2 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-06T21:39:58Z
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@mike805 @freemo if we had a democracy that would work, but we have an oligarchy where the lobby of the gun manufacturers out votes the people. Just see what the supreme court did recently to my state of New York. Our democratically enacted gun controls were wiped. And if you don't believe we are in an oligarchy, see the news about Clarence Thomas. That is why I take issue with this reification of the founding fathers. That is all a smoke screen to face that there is no democracy on this issue. It's the rule of the lobby, which I very much doubt the founding fathers intended. Indeed, a century later Lincoln called the death penalty for profiteers, which is what the gun manufacturers who profit from there daily assassination of American children are.
(DIR) Post #AUOSgG3Z2bLv45ds3M by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-06T21:51:10Z
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@mike805 @freemo you have changed the interpretation of only the bits you like: guns for all, when it was meant for well regulated militia of white men. There was no need for amendments to change that interpretation. But if we want to set the limits clearly specified by the "well regulated" bit (the point @freemo was commenting with meme, incorrectly in my view) then we need an amendment. Isn't that convenient? Of course it is all a matter of interpretation, which depends on the supreme court, which depends on money---or a president with the balls to pack it. The only hope it's that this conservative overreach (as in Tennessee and recent supreme court rulings) will result in a youth backlash that has not been seen since 1969.
(DIR) Post #AUOSgGYPBw1Sbk4V7o by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T01:40:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrochaNah, the amendment says nothing of white men, and the foubding fathers made no hijts that is what they intended... well regulated militia is very obviously an exemplary clause not a qualifying clause @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP3jtzqhK3S6rVNpo by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:35:28Z
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@freemo @mike805 Dude, for the founding fathers, "we the people" meant men with property. Voting was not universal. Everything about the second amendment, from gun technology to whom it applied to (it certainly did not apply to slaves), the concept of militia and regulation has changed, and so has its interpretation. The way it characterizes "well regulated militia" for instance, is because they really had no concept of national army as we have today. The idea of serving in a national army did not exist until after the french revolution and Napoleon. Up to that point, soldiers were paid by kings to fight for the king's army in defense of his property and lands. Those were the days when people like the founding fathers were defining how armies, national and state guards should work.
(DIR) Post #AUP3x5uTiPnep5He1w by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:37:51Z
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@freemo @mike805 This is a case of manufacturers who profiteer from the murder of the citizenry, convincing a minority that wanting to keep their toys has a higher, almost divine reason and it's worth assassinating children for. Again, the number one cause of death for children in the USA is guns. That does not happen in countries not at war. You are siding with the profiteers, not the people, and certainly not the children who are scared and tired of fearing for their lives daily in schools and at home.
(DIR) Post #AUP4KGIvEgbBijlRUu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:41:53Z
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@lmrocha Yea thats complete nonsense... the data is quite clear.. at best banning guns does nothing to help improve the violent, rape, and homicide rates... though at best it significantly reduces it (and the data leans towards the latter)The number one death for children means nothing if you dont compare it to the number of children's lives saved by guns as well, or correct for kids killed in gun free zones.Again this is like the anti-vaxxers argument "If you ban vaccines we will significantly reduce the deaths caused by vaccines"... while true its an intellectually dishonest argument.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP4bZ5CfcBOsub8aG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:45:08Z
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@lmrocha None of this argument is relevant.. yes a lot of people were oppressed, we passed amendments to protect them (and their right to own guns as an extension)... Again, this is the point, if you want to change the current state of the constitution, create an amendment. @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP5HaQY3w6PDTcT1E by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:52:45Z
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@freemo @mike805 the current state of the constitution is only what a (very small) majority of supreme court justices, corrupt as some of them are, decides it is. It can, it has, and it will be changed without an amendment.
(DIR) Post #AUP5Rys822ojvVTaPw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:54:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha Well no argument that the justices will abuse their reach by misinterpriting the constitution... luckily with the right lean in the supreme court we are likely to see stronger defense of the #2A, though I'd much rather this be done by the way the constitution is designed to work rather than to be at the whims of a supreme court.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP5eK2X9kgr3JECLQ by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:56:53Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @mike805 that is just false. It is completely false. All data shows, quite clearly, over and over again, that greater gun control leads to fewer deaths. Why do you think the gun lobby made it illegal for the NIH to study the effect of guns on public health? If the data were what you say, they'd be the first to want to study the phenomenon. Instead they successfully lobbied to forbid such studies---speaking of "hardcore libertarians."
(DIR) Post #AUP5mPEvhtI7Upsfiq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T08:58:17Z
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@lmrocha Nope, though I do understand why people who arent experts in data science can easily get mislead by the manipulation to try to sell that narrative... Sadly you will never see the data presented with good intellectually honest analysis (using granger causality rather than simple correlation whcih we all know is invalid when you cant control confounding variables)@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP61TgBU03hbpocsK by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:01:02Z
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@freemo @mike805 there is no misinterpretation. There is only interpretation, in context, in time, as needed, as the framers of the constitution intended. You seem to think the constitution holds some kind of immutable truth. That's reification. It obviously is not the case.
(DIR) Post #AUP66QZ2Ubl1OZpkrQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:01:54Z
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@lmrocha Of course the constitution is intended to change... thats what amendments are for.. what its not intended to do is say one thing and people make up completely opposite things and say thats what it means.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP6BjHiJkNuu7G424 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:02:54Z
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@freemo @mike805 dude, I'm on several data science study sections at NIH, and on the editorial board of several days science journals.
(DIR) Post #AUP6S86BpKRyUsgilU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:05:48Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 Great then you should, at least in theory, be able to understand why sooften the data presented is intellectually dishonest. I myself am an expert/professional data scientist, so we shouldnt have any trouble having this conversation.Doesnt change the fact, that as I said, most people fall for the intellectually dishonest analysis, and by the sounds of it, you might too. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
(DIR) Post #AUP8Fi4Gz1TICGzsEi by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:26:02Z
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@freemo @mike805 I'm talking about analysis based on pseudo randomized trials, which you can do comparing the times of introduction of regulations in different locations. You are the one assuming that when we speak of data we mean simple correlations. But again, you cannot underestimate that the gun lobby prevents the gathering of relevant data in the usa. They are not interested in serious data analysis. At the end of the day, your can justify your toys however you want. But American children are dying from guns much more than children in other rich countries. Taking my kids to school in the USA, everyday there was the ever present fear of a gun attack, with corresponding drills they had to be subjected to (you can only wonder the damage to mental health such insecurity caused them.) I am so happy they decided to go to college in Europe. We never worry about such a situation anymore. And that's how life should be.
(DIR) Post #AUP8hmdXadYmTWsbmS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:31:03Z
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@lmrochaThe vast majority of arguments people make when I discuss gun control is around simple correlations. Yes I was talking of people in general, not you or scientists or anyone who is willing to address the fact that the question is nuanced and requires advanced analysis to really approach the question. If that describes you then just assume it doesnt apply what I said, to you, it still applies to the droning masses however, sadly. At the end of the day, your can justify your toys however you want. But American children are dying from guns much more than children in other rich countries.This is technically true, but yea intellectually dishonest… It does not account for, or poorly accounts for, the numbers of violent crimes prevent, both from never happening, and from being stopped early on. Of course there are certain types of analysis that are more intellectually honest and sadly the data there leans strongly towards the opposite.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUP8zBWQJvzQZuqezQ by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T09:33:35Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@lmrocha @freemo you are arguing this from a statistics point of view. You may well have a point. If you want to debate with gun rights supporters, please understand: many of us believe in natural rights which existed before civilization and which civilization cannot legitimately take away. Personal defense is one of those.People with that POV will not be swayed by numbers. Our response is, why was this not a problem 100 years ago? Personally, I suspect psychiatric drugs play a big role today.
(DIR) Post #AUP94laHfYfHs5Jd2m by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:35:13Z
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@mike805 @lmrocha I mean there was a problem 100 years ago just as there is now.... violence, if that is via a gun or countless other means is very much secondary to the violence problem.
(DIR) Post #AUP9XMXlqf8kbim9mS by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T09:40:24Z
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@freemo @lmrocha kids don't generally get shot in Japan. Yes that is because the Japanese public has no guns. Nuts occasionally get stabby in Japan, but kill fewer victims.But 100 years ago we had a society with guns everywhere (even kids owned them) and mass shootings were practically unknown. Gang violence yes. Personal revenge yes. Rage-fueled mass shootings, no.SSRIs are known to produce a hypomanic rage-monster state in some males under the age of 25. Most mass shooters were on SSRIs.
(DIR) Post #AUP9XZ4TGuQZScARPs by swagpussc@mastodon.social
2023-04-07T09:40:25Z
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@freemoInfringe means broken into or broken, as in the Latin in frangereDoes that also mean it cannot be repaired if identified as already broken?Are you sure you want to use an originalist argument against an etymologist in a court of law?
(DIR) Post #AUP9jO4812gmnoe19E by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:42:33Z
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@mike805 Again, grossly intellectual-dishonest argument you just made.It is the exact same equivelant of the anti-vaxx argument: "If you made vaccines illegal we could eliminate vaccine deaths!"... Sure its technically true, but it fails to look at the big picture and account for lives **saved** to contrast the lives taken. @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPA71gOsymSKkolhA by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:45:44Z
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@mike805 @freemo there were no automatic weapons 100 years ago. Europeans are on SSRIs in similar proportions as Americans. No one needs automatic weapons for self-defense.
(DIR) Post #AUPA72IKbx7cEOZ3om by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:46:49Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 Automatic weapons are illegal in the USA, and have been for a while... Personally I would have no problem making them legal again.No one needs them for self-defense, but I am more than ok making something legal even if there is "no need" other than enjoyment.
(DIR) Post #AUPAGrVrYInpgiZxxY by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T09:47:48Z
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@lmrocha @freemo no automatic weapons 100 years ago? As I recall, there was a pretty big war in Europe that ended in 1918. Automatic weapons played a significant role in that war.The modern self-loading pistol - which seems to be the main mass shooting weapon - was patented in 1911.The restrictions on Evil Machine Guns started after Prohibition and corresponding mob violence became a problem.
(DIR) Post #AUPAGryZpXlt7m0tiS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:48:37Z
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@mike805 Actually we had automatic weapons **long** before 100 years ago... but that seems like a moot point for me to argue as I dont see it as all that relevant, but I'd make it legal.@lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPATd9wEJrEw4Pdk8 by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T09:50:57Z
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@freemo @lmrocha oddly enough, machine guns are not entirely illegal. Those owned before 1986 are still legal and can even be resold, with a background check.Of course they have been lovingly maintained, and many are "grandfathers' axe" guns where most of the parts are replaced. They sell for prices comparable to cars since no new ones are available.There were no mass shootings pre-1986 with legal automatic weapons. Yes we could go back to pre-86 NFA with no increase in mass shootings.
(DIR) Post #AUPAZ1fiWJjcPLqjeC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:51:54Z
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@mike805 I'm aware of the details, they are illegal to make and sell.. antique ones of course are protected and very expensive for the stamps.@lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPAZ96CuE5FRXIUPQ by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:51:56Z
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@freemo @mike805 exactly. You want your toys, who cares if children get murdered. The kids fighting in Tennessee understand you.
(DIR) Post #AUPAzri3fSKLKTk6Jk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:56:44Z
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@lmrocha And you are back to bad-faith arguments. 1) Toys are the last priority in the list of priorities. As I already explained the top priority is making the decision that results in the fewest people suffering. As I said the data in my review clearly shows this means not banning guns.2) Beyond that any choices made to restrict guns **must** show a positive effect on the big picture (lowering violent act rates). Since automatic weapons have not shown to be harmful to violence rates I will support it even if the argument is so weak as to say "it is for fun."@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPBBsYaLMPpQq2YU4 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:50:46Z
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@mike805 @freemo do you think this is how schools l get attacked in the USA today?
(DIR) Post #AUPBBtAA5eTPJNcZ3Q by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T09:57:27Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@lmrocha @freemo well most of the weapons used for mass shootings are either (a) pistols evolved from the 1911 patent, often with modern materials and additional safeties or (b) self loading rifles descended from the WW2 era M1 by way of the Vietnam era Armalite.So both of those general types of weapons were available to the public by the 1940s. Kids got bullied then too. Why no rage monster shootings? That is the question the gun controllers ignore.
(DIR) Post #AUPBBtgm8OYqwWsbtA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T09:58:55Z
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@mike805 A combination of 1) more access to recording equipment 2) More population 3) Worse social environment 4) Worse mental health...3 and 4 are debatable... 1 & 2 are incontrovertible.@lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPCy3Y4sZs1NPL6Zc by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T10:15:54Z
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@mike805 @freemo why no rage shootings elsewhere but there USA? Actually, they exist, but when they happen elsewhere laws change and high capacity shootings disappear. It's only the USA where profiteers have been able to engineer a profitable death cult around the second amendment.
(DIR) Post #AUPCy4FKHmStXXZdz6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T10:18:50Z
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@lmrocha Again, this is the antivaxxer argument "If you make vaccines illegal there wont be any vaccine deaths"... True but grossly intellectually-dishonest to anyone who actually can look at the problem objectively, in which case you must talk about the effects on overall violent acts, and not on "mass shootings", and thats before we even get into how ridiculously rare they are when compared to other rare events like lightening.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPDzh09mPNfytojXk by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T10:30:21Z
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@freemo @mike805 the dishonest argument is positing that guns prevent deaths at any reasonable rate, when you have no data whatsoever to show that is remotely true. Most gun deaths occur with guns from your own household. When was the last time you had to defend an attack with guns?At the end of the day, what are you guys so afraid of that you need guns? The zombies?
(DIR) Post #AUPEBDgMc7OAWZ3WSW by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T10:32:27Z
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@freemo @mike805 your parallel with vaccines is silly. Vaccines are not engineered to kill like all guns are. Vaccines may very, very rarely and accidentally kill. So the argument for gun control is nothing like the antivax argument.
(DIR) Post #AUPGZg7YjNzxaEZCgS by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-07T10:59:18Z
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@lmrochahttps://www.channel4.com/news/gun-violence-research-hampered-by-nra-say-top-scientists>NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam told CNN this week: “If gun control groups…(and) individuals want to further their research, we’re not saying they shouldn’t do it. We’re just saying they shouldn’t be using public funds to do it.”That seems consistent with libertarianism to me. Although I disagree.>Michael Halpern from the Union of Concerned Scientists also claims that pro-gun lobbying meant that Obama’s health care law contains provisions which restrict doctors and health insurers from collecting data about patients’ gun use, and using it for research.>In Florida, legislation passed last year threatened to punish doctors if they even asked patients whether they owned a gun – although the law was subsequently overturned by a federal judge.This doesn't though.@freemo @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPGqninj1DS4z9QXI by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-04-07T11:02:22.260689Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @mike805 i ran the numbers once on public data. the pearson R correlation for murders per 100k firearms was weak to none.the united states is just a horrifyingly volatile country in general. if you look at death statistics completely unrelated to weaponry--more of our firemen die than other countries of equivalent capability.
(DIR) Post #AUPIibSlcOcXeSs0NU by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T11:15:38Z
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@icedquinn @mike805 @freemo https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
(DIR) Post #AUPIicBQwKLjszlg00 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T11:19:41Z
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@icedquinn @mike805 @freemo Arthur L. Kellermann et al., “Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home,” New England Journal of Medicine 329, no. 15 (1993): 1084-1091.[Wiebe, Douglas J., “Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study,” Annals of Emergency Medicine 41, no. 6 (2003): 771-782. Dahlberg, Linda L., Robin M. Ikeda, and Marcie-jo Kresnow, “Guns in the home and risk of a violent death in the home: findings from a national study,” American Journal of Epidemiology 160, no. 10 (2004): 929-936. Miller, Matthew, Deborah Azrael, and Catherine Barber, “Suicide mortality in the United States: the importance of attending to method in understanding population-level disparities in the burden of suicide,” Annual Review of Public Health 33 (2012): 393-408.
(DIR) Post #AUPIicmehw7jkRBP16 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-04-07T11:23:16.362749Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo > suicideyes, that's the majority shareholder of gun deaths in the USA. you will convince zero gun owners to give up their guns because people are sad and we refuse to help them as a society.
(DIR) Post #AUPIpgx5bmiohdQv5c by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T11:24:35Z
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@Hyolobrika @freemo @mike805 so it is consistent with libertarianism that public funds should not be used to study the leading cause of death for children in the USA? Only if one takes the view that libertarianism means that there should not be any public funds at all. That is, the most radical libertarian stance. I would believe it if I saw libertarians claim that there should be no public funds to study children cancer (which rarely kills children) and such. Not even rand Paul pushes for that.
(DIR) Post #AUPJgdRNOX3V9yqRxA by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T11:26:02Z
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@icedquinn @mike805 @freemo no, homicide as well. Read the papers.
(DIR) Post #AUPJge7Ct0W3FiPr9c by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T11:30:13Z
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@icedquinn @mike805 @freemo gun owners who defend availability of high capacity automatic weapons without regulation can believe whatever they want. But we should stop being polite and call their death cult for what it is: a profiteering racket that values dollars and selfish toys over the lives of children.
(DIR) Post #AUPJgepWEFxfT99FDs by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-04-07T11:34:09.589383Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo how many children has the DoD killed and told you it was goodi bet its more than civilian riflemen
(DIR) Post #AUPPLkZYHbM0vH5rUW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:37:34Z
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@icedquinn Did you normalize the 100K firearms to population?Depending on the analysis Ive seen very little correlation and I've seen correlation that favors gun ownership.. depends on how you approach it.@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPPSNC1bbkARKFNNg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:38:46Z
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@lmrocha I absolutely have data to show it. You can simply do a search for violent rates, murders and deaths and look at how they change in various countries when guns are banned or a ban revoked.. the correlation is quite obvious. Would you like me to post you some of these graphs, as I said I have tons of data to backup what I'm saying.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPPYf7ZrTuvmTAKau by realcaseyrollins@social.freetalklive.com
2023-04-07T12:39:57Z
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@mike805 @freemo I do appreciate this argument from the anti-gun crowd because it's at least somewhat based on what's in the constitution. But the #2A doesn't give the federal government the right to regulate the militia.
(DIR) Post #AUPPZZBlP6XXffYStU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:40:04Z
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@lmrocha What they are "engineered" to do, whatever that means, is irrelevant to the point that your using the anti-vaxxer's failed logic. I'm sure an anti-vaxxer will try to tell you vaccines are engineered to kill too, which would be just as weak a counter.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPPfj9rFdzeKNbKxU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:41:11Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 Guns are the great equalizer, if you want to know what people are afraid of, well women being rapped is a prime example of where guns provide a huge equalizing force to address a very real and rampant problem (far more so than school shootings thats for sure).
(DIR) Post #AUPPsH2J7QEAsG3ICe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:43:27Z
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@lmrocha I find it curious that you say you understand the literature and those post studies that, while technically true, have been explained exactly why they are intellectually dishonest and rejected as an argument against guns by experts looking at this fairly.. i also explained to you the type of analysis that is good-faith which is suprisingly lacking from your link... I think this goes to show either you dont understand the science well enough to interprit it, or you are just so biased at this point as to provide intellectually dishonest arguments in the hopes no one will notice the holes.@icedquinn @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPPvReM777ef1MRii by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T12:44:05.597596Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo guns literally do nothing without a person. Blaming inanimate objects for the actions of people is low effort
(DIR) Post #AUPQ15DWQnccp9UxUG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:45:02Z
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@icedquinn I strongly support better access to mental health. Hell I wouldnt even mind taxing guns such that the tax pays for some of that mental health access.That said I also beleive in bodily autonomy and that means the absolute right to suicide and not making the effort to block access to something on the basis that it can be used for suicide... if someone wants to kill themselves with a gun, that is their fundamental right, its their body.@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPQ7vPDJAuKQCEHZo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:46:17Z
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@lmrocha Please dont take this personal, but you are really comming across as uneducated on the topic with many of your comments, especially this one... Automatic weapons have been banned at a state and federal level for a very long time now (I think 60s or 70s).... There are no automatic weapons on the streets to worry about aside from a very rare few antiques.@icedquinn @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPQB6FRS992uwAlCC by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T11:45:10Z
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@icedquinn @mike805 @freemo all part of the same death cult and profiteering racket. FYI, I quit working for the DOE after the illegal Bush/Cheney Iraq war. I have no hesitation calling them war criminals. Putative DOD crimes do not in the least validate letting our children be killed at the altar of a profiteering death cult based on archaic constitutional interpretations.
(DIR) Post #AUPQB6sn5qcWsyaBWq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:46:51Z
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@lmrocha We share a lot in common. I too left the DoD over moral objections.@icedquinn @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPQHCKpjc3hX7bP4y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T12:47:57Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Guns are engineered to do one thing and one thing only... to shoot a piece of lead in a straight line very fast... anything else it can do is the human, not the gun, including where that piece of lead is headed to.@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPR4kIaFNaV3kAz4a by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T12:56:58.876955Z
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@lmrocha @icedquinn @mike805 @freemo > high capacity automatic weaponscurrent laws don't even allow for automatic weapons. Semi-automatic is not automatic no matter what is engraved on the side of the firearm.> selfish toysI'd say one of the major contributing factors to lower mental health in this country is the constant need to scroll a feed. Maybe we should ban "smart phones"... you know... for our safety
(DIR) Post #AUPRJVY9MiiTezUps0 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T12:59:38.913644Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @icedquinn @mike805 well there are plenty of modified and black market guns with full auto capabilities, but they aren't legal under current law (although I'd argue they should be). It actually kind of highlights the problem with trying to regulate them in the first place. They haven't gotten rid of the ability for a person to sling a lot of bullets in a single direction quickly. They've just made it so that otherwise law abiding citizens don't have access to the same weapons as people less concerned with following the law.
(DIR) Post #AUPRRjiOaDwduSDDe4 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T13:01:08.019144Z
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@freemo @icedquinn @mike805 @lmrocha if we're going to ban things that can be used for [self] harm we'll have nothing left.
(DIR) Post #AUPRYO6PKxxIuEcDGy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T13:02:10Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere The fact that you can make a fully automatic gun in a few hours out of scrap parts, or 3d print one dmakes the whole gun control argument very moot, but thats a separate issue.@icedquinn @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPcfBzgTTDwIGzXdo by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T14:57:55Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha Bingo! You've got it!Nobody wants to ban guns and nobody is coming for your guns. We just want to be sure that they don't end up as easily in the hands of a person that may start shooting indiscriminately in a school or other public place.Even the founding fathers had some "well-regulated" criteria for who can and who cannot have a gun (white men with wigs yes, founding mothers and people with slightly dark complexion no).The criteria arguably changed from then but the principle stands.
(DIR) Post #AUPcfCrDGS2eyI2I4m by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:06:44Z
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@pj People have literally banned entire classes of guns such as handguns and imaginary "assault rifles".. not only arr thry coming for our guns, they are explicit about it... @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPd0QouXu92MF52C8 by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:10:38Z
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@freemoSo this guy with an automatic weapon shooting beer cans recorded himself committing a crime? Smart.https://twitter.com/KidRock/status/1643090302410936323?s=20@lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPd0n7ncMKFXC5Qgq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:10:39Z
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@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha Also no, there was never a well regulated criteria. That was an exemplarly clause as is explicitly stated, not a qulifying clause. Thry have been quotes countless time saying as much.
(DIR) Post #AUPdKdeGYn8lw4jj3w by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:14:18.605465Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha > We just want to be sure that they don't end up as easily in the hands of a person that may start shooting indiscriminately in a school or other public placeImpossible demand. There is no way to know the mind of another. You can make inferences based on what you know about that person, but even that's largely dependent on what they let you know about them. A better solution would be to make sure that places where vulnerable people are likely to be concentrated should be hardened to both dissuade the behavior and reduce the impact if it occurs.> white men with wigs yes, founding mothers and people with slightly dark complexion noDon't people get tired of picking on dead people's bigotry? I mean come on. It's worth noting that the 2nd Amendment does not have any such stipulations. The cultural norms of who would have had their rights protected in the 1700s/1800s has little to do with which rights we should be protecting and to what extent.
(DIR) Post #AUPdYAcrGLX7yfWwqm by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:16:42Z
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@freemo @mike805 what guns are engineered to do is not a matter of opinion.
(DIR) Post #AUPdiZSXmpWxtSfJp2 by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:18:36Z
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@freemo Yes, they don't explicitly state in the constitution who is and who isn't allowed to have guns, but I think it is pretty clear what would have happened if one of their slaves went for a gun.You can't run a society without qualifying clauses.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPdpVYQhhjloEj5hA by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:19:51Z
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@freemo @mike805 so, are you saying that the US has lower rape rates than other similar countries?
(DIR) Post #AUPdrDk7tg4p9D0vdw by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:20:12.018176Z
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@pj @freemo @mike805 @lmrocha how does the "racist founding fathers" trope not get tired?> If I trash talk the people who came up with an idea I don't like it's the same thing as attacking the idea
(DIR) Post #AUPdwQ8jEX5D2l07hA by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:21:07Z
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@freemo @icedquinn @mike805 what experts? I sent papers with randomized control trials, what is better than that?
(DIR) Post #AUPe62G6sR7VsF2Qwi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:22:48Z
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@pjDid you miss the part where i said there are a few very angique ones left but the manufacture, and sale is forbidden for weapons made after the 70s? @lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPeDmdmpRGbkfo7UW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:24:13Z
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@lmrocha It also isnt a mstter of fact. You have some guns explicitly engineered for sport and in competitions and is not designed to kill as a primary purpose. @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPeG222ZkG849Dx5s by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:22:29Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo so why do you need driver's licenses and insurance to operate a vehicle?
(DIR) Post #AUPeG2XEhlDFctoria by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:24:40.929879Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo great question. I know plenty of licensed drivers who probably shouldn't have them, and I've know plenty of people that were excellent drivers who lost their license over bureaucratic bull shit that was completely unrelated to their driving.
(DIR) Post #AUPeIzGZJZcEMCQde4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:25:08Z
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@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha Surr thry do, thry explicitly state the right shall not be infringed. Pretty clear that means all people.
(DIR) Post #AUPeZjb0pUjKgBycca by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:28:09Z
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@lmrocha Didnt you read the part i repeated like 10 times now where i pointed out you must comparr the effects on gun laws using causality tests like granger causality?You said you understood statistics but if you keep getting this really basic point confused i dont think you have enough expiernce (or maybe are too biased) to really analyze the situation. That said id be willing to help, can you tell me how you would repjrase the question to say the same thing using valid ststistical analysis using granger causality? If you are confused id be happy to help explain it but im not sure yojr trying to learn here, maybe im misreading you though, i do want to give you the benefit of the doubt this is a good faith discussion.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPesNAkQMb0dUZyAy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:31:33Z
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@lmrocha I explained in a great deal of detail exactly why its invalid (unlike with granger causality it is very hard to rule out or normalize for confounding properties).. randomized fail when you are trying to decipher large graphical models betause you dont have independent propabilities dominating the graph. We use granger causality for this sort of stuff for very good reason.@icedquinn @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPexriAJBLgnapST2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:32:32Z
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@lmrocha I woukd argue licenses and insurance shouldnt be allowed in their current form either... but arguing one thing is valid simply because some other thing exists is pretty weak argument IMO@thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPfegXJjTE4anAmfI by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-07T15:40:19Z
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@lmrochaYes. Reduction in the power or responsibility of government is always consistent with libertarianism. Otherwise, what does it mean at all?>Only if one takes the view that libertarianism means that there should not be any public funds at all.That is the case in extreme (right-wing, economic) libertarianism. Have you ever heard of anarcho-capitalism?@freemo @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPful6AXQuTNJ8gGe by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:43:14Z
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@freemoI believe the definition of "people" at that time, as @lmrocha pointed out, might have been very narrow.@thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPfvswKrydXz54oeu by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:37:01Z
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@thatguyoverthereAd 1: So you are OK to inconvenience a lot of innocent people by having to protect themselves and the places they work or study rather than have someone who wants to own a deadly weapon jump through a few hoops before they can get one? Nice.AD 2: I wasn't talking about the morals of your founding father figures, I was merely pointing out that they also had some (unwritten) criteria of who can and cannot have guns, that you think we don't need today.@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPfvtRB1JJ5WjVRjM by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:43:26.546074Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha > inconvenience a lot of innocent people by having to protect themselvesYou have to do that anyway. Do you not have a lock on the door[s] to your home? do you leave your wallet on the dash of your car and the windows down?> merely pointing out that they also had some (unwritten) criteria of who can and cannot have gunsYou are conflating separate issues to try and make your point seem more valid. It's not the same thing. We also don't let prisoners have guns in prison. I do think after a person has served their time they should have their rights restored, but that's not the case for felons. It's still a separate issue from the general debate on gun control.
(DIR) Post #AUPfw764EajvtJjmls by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:43:28Z
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@Hyolobrika For the record libertarism can have a lot of nuance to it and isnt always about reducing government... it may, for example, be about moving the power of governance from a federal level to a local level (but the overall governance imposed on a person is about the same).@lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPfxKhD9u10MEh0a0 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:43:43.003015Z
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@pj @freemo @lmrocha @mike805 it's not now. move on
(DIR) Post #AUPgA3Kp1BuqHHHliq by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:45:58Z
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@freemo Sorry, didn't realize your automatic weapon is a "classic".😀 @lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPgG0KD7bgEgEpzV2 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:47:05.156511Z
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@pj @freemo @lmrocha @mike805 the point I'm making is that the definition of a person is not part of the 2nd Amendment. It's not part of the debate in gun control unless you are claiming that people you think are more likely to become violent are somehow not people. Then we need to figure out how we define that and maybe you have a case. Where we stand today all people are people, and natural rights apply to all people.
(DIR) Post #AUPgLS15anDc0oUUca by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:47:44Z
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@thatguyoverthereOr what? You'll shoot me?@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPgLST5ufcVPfarGy by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:48:04.365299Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha are you retarded?
(DIR) Post #AUPgRcjydM6P0eQjce by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:49:11.256948Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha "that escalated quickly" :harold:
(DIR) Post #AUPgVQ5jbY8gwBPvf6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:49:48Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@pj It was not narrow, at least not in the constitution. the founding fathers made rather clear, at least many of them, that they wanted many to have equal rights but sadly the states in many cases, and people, just werent ready for it. So it had to be explicitly added as an amendment.The quotes from the founding fathers during and after the writing of the constitution was quite clear that their definition of People was in fact extraordinarily broad for the time period and very much they wanted to include blacks in that definition (and likely other minorities).Some quotes:“There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].” – George Washington, 1786"Article the Sixth. There shall be neither Slavery nor involuntary Servitude in the said territory" -- James Madison, at the constitutional convention address prohibition against slavery as an article.“We have seen the mere distinction of color made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man.” – James Madison (also at the constitutional convention)“Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgment of Heaven on a country." -- George Mason“The omitting the Word [slave] will be regarded as an Endeavor to conceal a principle of which we are ashamed.” – John Dickinson, draft of notes for a speech at the Constitutional Convention“Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States…I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in…abhorrence.” – John Adams, 1819@lmrocha @thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUPgdRuyhJRCv2DN2G by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:51:17Z
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@pj @lmrocha @mike805 No one aside from a few rich people with a handful of antiques, owns any automatic weapons... they are virtually non-existant and contribute to effectively 0 crimes due to their rarity and being illegal to produce new ones or sell new ones made after the 70s.
(DIR) Post #AUPgfac7L0NST3PgbQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:51:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj QOTO is a place for **respectful** debate... lets not do that please.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPggorfq3ykxJHBOy by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:50:04Z
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@thatguyoverthere No. Are you?@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPggpTFaM2KpqrByK by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:51:56.028762Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha you just went from "Your argument sucks choose something stronger" to "are you threatening violence?" lol... that's a hell of a leap homie
(DIR) Post #AUPgixkrkwYl6i77ku by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:52:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere We dont need a definition for people, we all know what a person is and the founding fathers made it very clear they intended that word to include all people.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUPgrCtjL4HGOBBv16 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T15:53:48.859782Z
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@freemo @mike805 @lmrocha @pj I agree. I am just trying to separate the arguments because it seems like there is an attempt to conflate the idea that "slaves weren't considered people" with "all people shouldn't get guns". To me the validity of the first argument has no bearing on the validity of the second.
(DIR) Post #AUPgweerYRDbvwpolk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:54:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Yea its an invalid argument in so many ways.. for one its just not relevant, and for another the founding fathers were rather explicit the constitution intended "we the people" to mean everyone.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUPhbmZN2pzULLsREm by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T15:57:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere You've said it is not the gun that is a problem, it is the person, and I agreed with that.I just don't agree that we all should have to protect ourselves (supposedly with more guns) from bad persons with guns, instead of, as a civilized society, minimizing the chances these people can do harm. @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPhbn7P0JDG2tncHY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:02:09Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj guns arent to protect yourself from a bad person with guns... not sure why you keep repeating something that everyone has told you isnt the case or what is being argued...We have access to guns to protect you from bad people with knives, or fists, or a penis and muscles they intend to use to force you into submission and rape you... Guns are the great equalizer and to use them against other guns is not remotely the point, yet somehow anti-gun people keep repeating the same nonsense like a broken record to disagree with an argument no one ever said.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPhsBJwmuw9k1TytM by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:05:09Z
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@freemo Again. It is not about how you define "people". It is about having #criteria on who can and who cannot have a gun, drive a car or buy cigarettes or alcohol ...The founding fathers had such criteria, as ***everyone could not bear a gun***, and we should also have them.That's all I have to say.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPhxlB2tzP6Obyl3Q by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T16:06:11.997993Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha > I just don't agree we should all have to protect ourselvesI mean you don't have to protect yourself, but we do hold some level of responsibility (not all) for what happens to us. Back to the car analogy for a moment, you put on your seat belt right? If you live in an area where you actually feel your life is in danger you should take steps to minimize that danger. What steps you choose are entirely up to you. We have police who will put in some effort (using firearms) to execute the laws which can sometimes be enough to protect people or make people feel safe. You also have the right to own a firearm and become proficient with it so that if you should need to use it (god forbid) you can adequately protect yourself. You can also always look for an area where you don't feel like you are under constant threat. I live in a state with constitutional carry. I never feel like I am in any serious risk when I leave my home. Sometimes I carry. Sometimes I don't. If we have laws about murder, assault, theft, rape, etc already, I don't see why we need to nitpick about how the person commits the crime.
(DIR) Post #AUPi4H7T3QajCVPbZA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:07:18Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj If you want criteria on who can or cant own a gun get support for a new amendment. At the moment it clearly states "shall lot be infringed".It has been shown in no uncertain terms that the 2A intended to include all people. You want to change it thats fine go through the propernlegal channels.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPi67yE2cWtP8yLcu by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T16:07:42.802582Z
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@freemo @pj @mike805 @lmrocha yeah the point of bad people having guns regardless of the law isn't to say that you having a gun is specifically to fend of gun wielding raiders. It is the equalization of force that it provides.
(DIR) Post #AUPiNZo1npHIeqWTx2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:10:47Z
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@thatguyoverthere Yup in fact criminals already have big barriers (and i think its ok to make access to criminal records easier).So by its very nature one would expect good guys with guns to far outweight bad guys with guns from the start. Which implies most of the protection from guns is going to be against unarmed people.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUPirbuSXsn3rzquUC by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T16:16:17.789199Z
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@freemo @mike805 @lmrocha @pj I would say though that I believe that most non-violent (and even some violent) criminals likely deserve to regain their rights after they have served their sentence. I might exclude sex offenders from that because I think the chance of re-offending is too high, but if someone served out the full sentence for their crimes I feel like they should be fully restored afterwards. Not doing so might even push people toward more criminal activity. If the only job you can get is gonna be bullshit pay because of your past you might just lean into it.
(DIR) Post #AUPjlan1tcFqc64UIi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:26:20Z
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@thatguyoverthere Id say even extremely violent people should have a path to get their rights back, the key shoukd be recovery and eventually entering society again... that said they may have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there since thry woukd have to show quite clearly they have been reabilitated.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUPkU3SoeFFMHmom3s by justaboutnormal@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:34:24Z
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@freemo constitutional scholars have debated the intent of these words for years. Regardless we have a major problem in the US that other countries with stricter gun laws do not have. That is incontrovertible. We must amend the second amendment.
(DIR) Post #AUPl4uPzF5gswi4HOC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:41:01Z
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@justaboutnormal Constitutional scholars have debated the intent of these words for years.Not any constitutional scholars who deserve to be called that… The founding fathers explicitly explained what they meant, and the courts of the time have made more than enough rulings to make clear exactly what the initial interpretation was. Regardless we have a major problem in the US that other countries with stricter gun laws do not have. That is incontrovertible.Nah there are tons of ways you could phrase that, you are assuming a cause-effect relationship when the data suggests there either is none, or it is the inverse of what you apply.For example you could also have said:“Regardless we have a major problem in the US that other countries with better access to mental health do not have. That is incontrovertible.”Replace “access to mental health” with “access to welfare”, “less medical debt” or a thousand other correlations you could cherry pick that all have the potential to be the true root cause.. Most of the data strongly implies that it most certainly is not the guns. We must amend the second amendment.I agree, but I would reword it to take out the “well regulated militia” example (as it seems to confuse anti-gun people) and very clearly state no class or type of gun shall be banned… though I’m sure thats the opposite direction you wanted to go.But hey as long as your trying to do it through the proper legal route of changing an amendment I will give you credit there.
(DIR) Post #AUPligN4t6cMxnfmDo by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:44:37Z
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@thatguyoverthereYou had to "drag me back in"😀 In my opinion if you have to use guns to solve anything (even in case of the police) it means we as a society suck.@freemo's argument that women use guns to protect themselves from bad penises is also dubious. I think taking a self-defense training or even a bear spray would be much more effective.@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPlihbIJjaGmBKe1I by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T16:48:17.242993Z
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@pj @freemo @mike805 @lmrocha > we suck as a societyyep. Humans are terrible with a few exceptions. We are actually like a lot of other animals except we reflect on our terrible behavior and from what I can tell others don't.a 110 lbs woman with a can of mace somewhere in her purse that she's never used may or may not be able to fight of a 230lb monster in the middle of the night.
(DIR) Post #AUPlioQYw29twvMflQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:48:14Z
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@pj In my opinion if you have to use guns to solve anything (even in case of the police) it means we as a society suck.Then every society on earth sucks, and I wont disagree with that… Until you eliminate rape and violent acts from even being attempted then you will never be able to rely on cops. Cops will always be some distance away and it will always require you to have access to a phone and early enough warning make the phone call.Usually if someone is being raped or held at knife point or assaulted in the overwhelming majority of cases there was never a chance to even reach out to the police in the first place.So yes I am happy to eliminate guns, if the criteria for it is you must first eliminate all violent crimes so you can ensure we dont need those guns in the first place.When a guy is twice your size physical defense training is perhaps going to help the womans odds slightly but she will still be at a huge disadvantage, afterall men and women can both get that same training so its not a equalizing force.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUPlyqPBLjfiiUMbc8 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T16:51:13.214998Z
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@freemo @pj @mike805 @lmrocha when I attended the course recommended for concealed carry (not required - constitutional carry) they pointed out in very clear terms the job of the police is not primarily to defend you. It is to execute the law which generally means arresting people suspected of a crime. That means the crime already happened by the time the cops show up.
(DIR) Post #AUPnwa61DPETSpRsfY by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-04-07T16:57:13Z
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@thatguyoverthere And SCOTUS recently confirmed this, regarding the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas shooting: "An official has a duty to protect individuals from harm by third parties only when the individuals are in the official’s custody."https://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/201914414.pdf
(DIR) Post #AUPnwabvImkl3mNMOm by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T17:13:12.877848Z
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@LouisIngenthron > in the officials custodyThis is a special carve out specifically in the case of an official being given domain over your safety. This is not how it works "in the streets"
(DIR) Post #AUPqxuJjon2gKbBpTs by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-04-07T17:45:19Z
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@thatguyoverthere Yes, that was my point.
(DIR) Post #AUPqxum67Lj9kYSTgW by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T17:47:03.772898Z
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@LouisIngenthron so it's kind of irrelevant to daily life. Unless you would prefer to be "in the custody" of someone else for your whole life.
(DIR) Post #AUPr2D1CELrDUPZI9I by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-04-07T17:47:37Z
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@thatguyoverthere You've still missed the point. I was agreeing with what you said, not arguing against it.
(DIR) Post #AUPr46gijlamR4tbcG by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T17:48:11.789514Z
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@LouisIngenthron ah ok... yes I misunderstood.
(DIR) Post #AUPuFUeOHlKlnlvY2q by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T18:20:41Z
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@thatguyoverthere @freemo @lmrocha @pj this thread shows a common problem.People with incompatible worldviews usually cannot have productive debates about an issue that impacts their worldviews.People on the gun rights side see this as a matter of NATURAL RIGHTS - rights that existed before civilization. Numbers and harms don't move them.People on the anti-gun side see it as a matter of SAFETY - they want to reduce harms. At least the honest ones do. A few are would-be tyrants.
(DIR) Post #AUPv7Iv47Krh3XNyBk by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T18:33:30Z
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@freemo @pj @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha in that case, Japan sucks less than most. The police there go most years without firing a shot. They are trained to use their batons with modified sword-fighting techniques to disarm a knife attacker.However... in the absence of guns, the Yakuza was able to run extortion and protection rackets with basic strong-arm thugs, and force small businesses to pay them a substantial percentage. That's the downside of being gun-free. Organized muscle dominates.
(DIR) Post #AUPv7l5fNVywQWYpbE by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T18:27:18Z
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@thatguyoverthere @freemo @lmrocha @pj From the gun-rights side, we used to have a civilization where people could have deadly weapons for protection and sport, without frequent massacres taking place.We need to fix our culture so that is possible again. That's where the statistics come in - figure out what are the factors causing people to go rage monster.If the culture isn't fixable, then what comes next will not be pretty, and guns will certainly be in demand in that environment.
(DIR) Post #AUPv7lZnZU5JvyetZA by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-07T18:33:40.403139Z
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@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha @pj agreed. The violence we are subject to is a cultural problem and no amount of banning and bureaucracy is going to fix it. Too much could even make it worse. People are creative. Weapons can be made at home. Shinzo Abe was assassinated with the most cyberpunk looking weapon ever made on the planet made "by wrapping steel pipes together with tape".https://english.jagran.com/world/shinzo-abes-killer-wielded-homemade-gun-had-considered-a-bomb-attack-say-police-10045759
(DIR) Post #AUPvF270UU1xFHelns by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-07T18:30:03Z
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@thatguyoverthere @freemo @lmrocha @pj only a minority of humans seem capable of rationally overriding their emotions. We have rational thought but the ape mind controls all the rewards and punishments. The rational mind just exists to figure out how to satisfy the ape desires.
(DIR) Post #AUPvPLQFYA6c20Zf0q by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T18:36:47Z
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@mike805 Japan has a much healthier social environment built on respect, and much much better access to mental health than americans... So Japan is just as well explained by the two criteria I already gave earlier than by access to guns.@pj @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUQ77Nc1rs3j3qHfsm by justaboutnormal@qoto.org
2023-04-07T20:48:02Z
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@freemo Not any constitutional scholarswho deserve to be called that…This is clearly your opinion.As for your premise that other measures would mitigate gun violence, you’re absolutely right and we should have better social supports, but it is also true (the data supports this) that stricter gun laws result in less gun violence.
(DIR) Post #AUQ7PcLTpTqFy2Evbs by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T20:51:13Z
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@justaboutnormal This is clearly your opinion.Clearly, I’d wager a correct opinion as well. But yes it is an opinion, much as it is your opinion as to who you think qualifies as a constitutional scholar. As for your premise that other measures would mitigate gun violence, you’re absolutely right and we should have better social supports,Good glad we agree on that. but it is also true (the data supports this) that stricter gun laws result in less gun violence.Absolutely false, but there is a lot of intellectually dishonest analysis from both sides, so I can understand how you might make this incorrect assumption, in fact the opposite is true (the data that is well done and objective, using valid arguments, strongly suggests reducing guns increases violence.)
(DIR) Post #AUQBjNmm4UhMQ3gdRw by justaboutnormal@qoto.org
2023-04-07T21:39:42Z
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@freemo show me.
(DIR) Post #AUQBsdVwxiIjo6EIuu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-07T21:41:21Z
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@justaboutnormal I think we would have to discuss the criteria and conditions first… I dont know your level of expertise. Presuming you are familiar with fair statistical analysis can we agree that we can use simple correlation against other countries due to confounding and the way to analyze this sort of data is using granger causality or similar causality tests?
(DIR) Post #AUQEFA7yaSGxEbswMa by justaboutnormal@qoto.org
2023-04-07T22:07:52Z
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@freemo https://giffords.org/lawcenter/resources/scorecard/ https://www.everytown.org/debunking-gun-myths-at-the-dinner-table/ https://efsgv.org/learn/learn-more-about-gun-violence/mental-illness-and-gun-violence/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/policy-evaluation/ https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/Tangentially related: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-in-rural-areas-die-at-higher-rates-than-those-in-urban-areas/I can tell that this won’t convince you. Most likely you’ll look at this and say that these are all biased/flawed/whatever, just like when I look for counter-evidence I don’t trust anything from the NRA or other obviously biased organizations.I also think that you might be interested in this book https://amzn.to/406tWNb which talks about how we form our beliefs.
(DIR) Post #AUQF20pFxa4qZhQGDQ by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-04-07T22:16:41Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @mike805 People of different colors can hold this power and that is what truly has made many laws pass. The laws that take away freedoms are almost exclusively targeting undesirables and the poor. When one can live behind a gate with private security goons, they make these laws.The 80s and 90s were the rise of the disco drug but not in the salt form. People with certain skin tones might have been more likely to use this drug. As with armored vehicles that hold currency, the currency generated by this trade has to be protected too.Racism, hate and fear were the basis of these laws and it's not difficult to see that while they were allegedly to protect these people, arrests tell a better story. This is the equivalent of The White Man's Burden. A life sentence for possession and slavery were the respective solutions by those in power. Every new administration washes their hands while the people they rule don't need to be brainwashed. A nation divided by parties and full of hate doesn't need the CIA to change them. They will do horrible things.Children see adults as models. How can we be so surprised when they follow our footsteps? Government needs to control us more as we are incapable of doing so ourselves? No, we need to change as a society to address our problems and much of that would need to begin with our own shortcomings.
(DIR) Post #AUQi2gpxPqYvdMNEum by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-08T03:41:46Z
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@justaboutnormalWhen you provided tbose links it appears you completely ignkred tbe criteria i explained would make a good study and what wouldnt… why are you cherry picking studies we already covered woukd be dishonest intellectually in this debate rather than using analysis that uses causality tests and therefore woukd be valid?You can absolutely change my mind, i change my mind 10 times before breakfast. But i was carreful to explain the criteria before you did exactly what you did and post studies that are trch ically true but simply do not apply to the argument at hand, much like the antivaxxer nonsense of “if we made vaccines illegal there would bw less vaccine related death… like sure jts true, and sure you can find studies to verify it, but jt also has nothing to do with if vaccines should be legal either.Now i explained earlier before you even posted why studies of these nature woukd be jntellectually dishonest, did you not understand that, do you want to get into that again or we just burrying our head in the sand now.Talk to me when you have studies that use proper analysis for thr problrm, causality tests.
(DIR) Post #AUTCFlzSx8pYK2tbhQ by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:29:41Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 no it's not. Comparison is essential for making laws and argue about them.
(DIR) Post #AUTDGn2Oe1e5oXJcC8 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:41:06Z
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@freemo @icedquinn @mike805 I did not see your great detail explanation. Randomized control trials, and their pseudo variants, are hard for network causality, but excellent for the number of variables in these studies. Without them there were be no pharmaceutical approvals. The A/B testing on which tech and consumer services depend, similarity. Granger causality is a very nice measure, but it is still a correlational predictive measure that does not do well beyond pairwise interactions, etc. But if you have a peer-reviewed paper with granger causality analysis of the gun/mortality/violence situation, by all means send it.
(DIR) Post #AUTE5nWsZmpm6jtbhg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:50:16Z
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@lmrocha Conducting and designing experiments for statistical analysis is my job. Not saying this for any reason than it is important to note that the kind of study useful for one sort of analysis isnt useful for another.Yes controlled randomized studies are great for medication, horrible for judging nations. So while, yes it is the best study approach for vaccines, or medication, or biomarkers, it has no place in a gun debate. This should be obvious why, in a drug trial you can and do control all (hopefully) relevant variables, when talking about nations and gun control you cant.There are a few peer-reviewed papers on granger causality and gun control, but sadly none that I like (even the ones that support my stance I dont feel were conducted well). I can of course do the analysis directly with you, or talk about the literature and its faults (I did this in an earlier thread briefly)... but rather than providing copy pasta of a bunch of flawed studies I'd rather just admit the fact that the body of research on this is of poor quality and encourage better research. Until that happens (because there is certainly a need for proper studies) we will have to rely on directly studying this ourselves.Want to go over some of the public datasets, which wouldnt fall under peer-review, of this data and do a casual analysis let me know, I'd be happy to post the charts and do a deep dive with you.@icedquinn @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTEBacHUzSznSBUSu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:51:20Z
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@lmrocha great then lets do that:Since guns dont require licenses, we shouldnt require licenses to drive cars either... Through the use of comparison you made a strong argument to abolish car licenses :)Yea I dunno that sounds like a bad way to argue.@thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTECWfpdwllrGI93I by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:51:32Z
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@freemo @mike805 you can repeat your beliefs all you want. That does not demonstrate anything. Send me your peer-reviewed analysis and I'll check it out.
(DIR) Post #AUTEPqiuPW1do05GWe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:53:54Z
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@lmrocha A lack of good quality peer-reviewed studies also doesnt demonstrate much... Sadly peer-review is **not** how scientists determine if a paper makes a good argument. It only validates that the analysis is free from error, not that it is appropriate analysis to draw a particular conclusion...If you have any peer-reviewed studies that do proper analysis (we laid out what that meant already) Im all ears... I dont know of any so all we have left is our own work... feel free to share if you know of any, I have seen none from you either.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTETRSeHEWOc9Bvdo by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T08:54:34Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @thatguyoverthere actually.... owning a car doesn't require a license. It is entirely possible to have a car registered in your name and not have a drivers' license. If you have a big piece of land you can even drive it around your own land. Many farm boys drove around the farm long before turning 16. Those kids could also carry a rifle around on the farm, and did.Using a potentially deadly object IN PUBLIC requires you to demonstrate basic competence in most states.
(DIR) Post #AUTEbXJoNnjT66uxYu by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:56:03Z
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@freemo @mike805 yes, but those are not the ones used in school shootings and which the majority of the population wants to regulate. It's they killing machines. Also, no one, except killing machine profiteering apologists, cares about the distinction between automatic or semi-automatic. The available high capacity, semi-automatic models are automatic enough in their killing design and need to be regulated.
(DIR) Post #AUTEcUHNAVq1xdELS4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:56:11Z
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@mike805 Yes obviously true, but you know what I meant.@lmrocha @thatguyoverthere
(DIR) Post #AUTEk4Au6jvhJfooca by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T08:57:34Z
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@lmrocha If you call a non-automatic gun an "automatic" you are 1) showing unprofessional bias by using an explicitly incorrect word to refer to something for dramatic effect.. 2) Appear uneducated on the subject and are easily dismissed.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTF9geaBLEPtZuwLo by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T08:48:46Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @thatguyoverthere drivers' licenses are "shall issue." You don't have to be friends with the mayor, or a business owner. You have to show basic competence in the field you are being licensed in - able to drive a vehicle for a few minutes without doing anything seriously wrong.Many states have similar "shall issue" for CCW permits. Although a natural rights purist would object, in a practical sense it works.The problem is when you have to be "someone special" to get one.
(DIR) Post #AUTFLEwl1NCjRHvZ5M by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T09:04:20.650834Z
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@mike805 @lmrocha @freemo or win they penalize you for unrelated things by taking your license. If it demonstrates competence you should need to demonstrate incompetence for suspension/revocation.As an aside, I've never met a car that required a license to start moving
(DIR) Post #AUTFM9KnNBhsK3bYKO by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T09:04:28Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @thatguyoverthere the vehicle versus gun comparison ought to be used more often in these debates. Some of the terrorist truck rampages have run up body counts comparable to the mass shootings. And if guns were banned, large vehicles would be the next easiest way to go on a killing spree.Cars are also the other big killer of young people besides guns and drugs. So "how would you regulate vehicles then?" is a good question to ask.
(DIR) Post #AUTFXNozqnPqRH5V20 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:06:27Z
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@mike805 I'd argue poisons are the easist way to do mass killings... its been done, a bag of poison someone makes, takes it on a train, opens the bag, everyone dies... easy to make, kills en masse at a level comparable or exceeding guns.. no reasonable way to protect against it directly so only real option is to convince people to stop wanting to murder.@lmrocha @thatguyoverthere
(DIR) Post #AUTFtj0DmSKyV9zWJU by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T09:10:32Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @thatguyoverthere technically true but requires some brainpower.An idiot can commit mass murder with a truck or a gun or with fire. And most of the mass murderers are idiots, fortunately. If really smart people went homicidal, we'd have body counts in the tens of thousands.
(DIR) Post #AUTG22mw6MJCBNkCFE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:12:00Z
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@mike805 You can literally mix 2 chemicals froma super market and kill a train load of people... probably takes more brain power to learn to drive to be honest.@lmrocha @thatguyoverthere
(DIR) Post #AUTGKG2DaeMgTiZqJE by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:15:21Z
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@freemo @mike805 you are easily dismissed, and sound like l you need a voight-kampff test, when you want to tell the parents of children who had to identify body parts of their 6 year-olds that the carnage was not really from an automatic weapon, but a semi-automatic. Your distinction my be relevant to the "professional" profiteering gun apologists, but certainly not to the victims.
(DIR) Post #AUTGSMDwSm1RzRvIHI by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T09:08:44Z
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@thatguyoverthere @freemo @lmrocha yes the whole "smoke a joint lose your license" thing ought to be declared unconstitutional.As for licenses to start moving, don't tempt them. :-) they are already trying to put lockout devices for alcohol and sleepiness and so on in all cars. Gee, I hope those never malfunction in an emergency.The same people who would disarm us absolutely would put car ownership out of reach for the average person, given a chance. They'd prefer a world of robo taxis.
(DIR) Post #AUTGfGvtRkWdLQdgqu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:19:06Z
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@lmrocha Ahh personal attacks... I mean lets face it anti-gun people "easily dismiss" anything that doesnt agree with their world view.The good news is kids who actually have ever been involved in a school shooting are so extraordinarily rare I'd never have to have that conversation in a lifetime...Its amazing that not saying something that is undeniably false by any measure is being an "apologist" lol.. yes lets not be apologists and make up fact statements and then defend them even when we know they are lies, thats the way to solve problems.The fact is you've said multiple things that are either lies, or ridiculously uneducated on the subject.. whichever of the two it is it does discredit you in having a valid point of view in the discussion, particularly when you double down on defending it rather than acknowledging and learning from your error.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTGgDMqBiXkZnh1uK by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:19:19Z
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@freemo @mike805 no, you say that the copious literature on the topic---unequivocally showing that more guns, more crime---is wrong. So you, not I, have to demonstrate with peer-reviewed analysis that that body of work is incorrect. Otherwise you are just some guy shouting from the speaker's corner of the internet
(DIR) Post #AUTGs8B1JRBlx8qWa8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:21:25Z
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@lmrocha No I am saying there is plenty of literature and it shows various things, none of which shows more guns causes the problem. They show other facts, those facts are not relevant to what we are debating though.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTH0HwIto4cY1qutU by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:20:48Z
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@freemo @mike805 you are not the arbiter of "proper analysis" on your own.
(DIR) Post #AUTH0Ib4SEgQaSvTRA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:22:52Z
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@lmrocha Every scientist decides what is proper analysis on their own, there is no way to decide that without someone reading and engaging their own reasoning on the quality of the literature... peer review helps us know that there arent likely to be technical errors in a particular paper, but it does nothing (and is not intended to anything) to tell you which societal questions a paper successfully answers or doesnt.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTHIVKnppVDIwzvKC by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:08:59Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @pj that is not the point I made. I was pointing to the capriciousness that gun profiteering apologists use when interpretating the 2A. All concepts that it trades in have changed dramatically, but the apologists treat the inconvenient bits as, well 'it's not like that now”, and the bits they care about as immutable, reified text that only other amendments can adapt. As I said, all this is legal interpretation that depends only on a few lackeys the profiteering oligarchy pays up to sit on the supreme court---in another profound constitutional blunder. It is very hard to fight oligarchy, but the youth whose lives it values less than profit may yet have the power to change things.
(DIR) Post #AUTHIVuFi1rJ4taEa0 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T09:26:15.462762Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj what inconvenient bits? Shall not be infringed seems pretty straight forward. If you are referring to the militia portion we're back in a loop.Where I think we may differ is that I see these rights as natural god given rights of man. Government doesn't give us our rights, and allowing them to take your rights away and calling any rights preservation oligarchy hurts my brain. If every supreme court justice tomorrow said oh we've change how we interpret the 2a that changes nothing as far as "rights" go. 2A is protection against infringement (weak as it may be) not granting you the right to bear arms.
(DIR) Post #AUTHYE5biffwSAO3VI by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:29:04Z
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@freemo @mike805 you don't understand, the "professional distinction" you care about is irrelevant for the fact that 1) guns are the leading cause of children death in there USA, and 2) a lot of people make money from that. Thought experiment: you guys are such believers in the 2A. Surely you think it is of such great importance that we should at least consider that the role of government is to provide guns at cost (no profit) to the population. Do you think that if we removed cost from the equation the NRA would exist and there would be so many guns in the population? Your are siding with the gun profiteers who value profit over life, not some grand constitutional principle.
(DIR) Post #AUTIFL01u6SoKvKqPo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:36:48Z
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@lmrocha > you don't understand, the "professional distinction" you care about is irrelevant for the fact that 1) guns are the leading cause of children death in there USA, and 2) a lot of people make money from that. Oh it is very relevant.. it is the equivalent of an anti-vaxxer calling a virus a bacteria... it is relevant because it shows they dont understand such fundamental information that they are clearly unable to talk about or analyze anything more complex about the problem... when you **demonstrate** and then **defend** incorrect information, particularly when you do so in order to defend your incorrect conclusions, it discredits you and rules you out from being taken seriously, and rightfully so... yes its very relevant to the debate at hand.> Thought experiment: you guys are such believers in the 2A. Surely you think it is of such great importance that we should at least consider that the role of government is to provide guns at cost (no profit) to the population. Do you think that if we removed cost from the equation the NRA would exist and there would be so many guns in the population? The NRA is a non-profit and as such compared with a for-profit company there are a great many restrictions on the ability for its owners to profit. That said they do get a pretty generous salary but if their main goal was to profit they probably wouldnt have organized as a non-profit... yes the NRA and many of the non-profit gun advocacy groups would probably still exist.> Your are siding with the gun profiteers who value profit over life, not some grand constitutional principle.You really do sound like an anti-vaxxer with these sorts of tropes.. its all big pharma this, and profit that.. stick to the topic and not some communist/socialist nonsense of evil profits. I mean if you have a specific issue where money messed stuff up and want to address it fine.. but that doesnt change the numbers, and the numbers show a pretty clear pattern, when you ban guns people die and get rapped in huge numbers as a consequence that could have been saved... everything else is noise.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTIGRUXFhGmlE8APA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:37:02Z
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@lmrocha you don’t understand, the “professional distinction” you care about is irrelevant for the fact that 1) guns are the leading cause of children death in there USA, and 2) a lot of people make money from that.Oh it is very relevant.. it is the equivalent of an anti-vaxxer calling a virus a bacteria… it is relevant because it shows they dont understand such fundamental information that they are clearly unable to talk about or analyze anything more complex about the problem… when you demonstrate and then defend incorrect information, particularly when you do so in order to defend your incorrect conclusions, it discredits you and rules you out from being taken seriously, and rightfully so… yes its very relevant to the debate at hand. Thought experiment: you guys are such believers in the 2A. Surely you think it is of such great importance that we should at least consider that the role of government is to provide guns at cost (no profit) to the population. Do you think that if we removed cost from the equation the NRA would exist and there would be so many guns in the population?The NRA is a non-profit and as such compared with a for-profit company there are a great many restrictions on the ability for its owners to profit. That said they do get a pretty generous salary but if their main goal was to profit they probably wouldnt have organized as a non-profit… yes the NRA and many of the non-profit gun advocacy groups would probably still exist. Your are siding with the gun profiteers who value profit over life, not some grand constitutional principle.You really do sound like an anti-vaxxer with these sorts of tropes.. its all big pharma this, and profit that.. stick to the topic and not some communist/socialist nonsense of evil profits. I mean if you have a specific issue where money messed stuff up and want to address it fine.. but that doesnt change the numbers, and the numbers show a pretty clear pattern, when you ban guns people die and get rapped in huge numbers as a consequence that could have been saved… everything else is noise.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTIHThAXnP3swX9yy by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:37:15Z
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@freemo @mike805 no, the literature is quite clear: more guns, higher mortality, in the home, in society
(DIR) Post #AUTISJb2Qpn1kWpkiu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:39:09Z
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@lmrocha Clearly not the case, but as we covered since you dont even know what an "automatic" gun is I can understand why you cant understand the literature or draw accurate conclusions from it I guess.I have no doubt you will continue to believe that.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTIgwb4E3jilGp5Bw by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:35:51Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @pj God is besides the point here. The constitution is to establish a secular society for believers and unbelievers. Besides, I take take issue with equating guns at least with Christianity. The gospels are very clear about Jesus' thoughts on self -defense. You need to be diabolical (in the original sense of the word) to make a connection between "turn the other cheek” and the 2A. I think his surrender to crucifixion is quite clear on that note.
(DIR) Post #AUTIgxAA7ZoEW7F6tU by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T09:41:52.718126Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj natural and god given are synonyms take it as you will I'm not asking you to accept God, bit good luck declawing me and anyone else who sees having claws and the capabilities that affords to be part of nature. I will always have the right to defend myself regardless of what the legal status of firearms is. No person or group of people can take that away. Best you can hope for is tyranny
(DIR) Post #AUTIkf7H9yA7hlf3KK by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T09:42:33.398087Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj happy easter by the wayHe is risen
(DIR) Post #AUTIw8y0W5o3TCnhjM by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:44:34Z
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@freemo @mike805 you keep talking about those numbers about guns and reducing rape and such, but I'm still waiting for the peer-reviewed analysis of those numbers. Can you send the DOIs?
(DIR) Post #AUTJEfghbFgCAGXbmK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:47:54Z
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@lmrocha As I explained to you, there are no peer-reviewed papers that do good analysis and explained in detail why.. there are papers on both sides, some that would appear to support my claim and yours, but in all cases they do not argue a good case. So our options are 1) I cherry pick data that supports my claim, is technically peer-review but is bad-faith and intellectually dishonest or 2) we have to accept neither of us can find a peer reviewed paper that meets the criteria I set forth early on, and instead rely on direct analysis.I've offered both of these options multiple times but you sound like a broken record claiming I havent offered up the data.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTJQfnV1BBjynRXfM by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T09:50:08.870431Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj Sorry to keep chaining replies I just noticed the turn the other cheek reference.> 36 Then he said to them, “But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one. 37 For I tell you, what is written must be fulfilled in me: [i] And he was counted among the lawless.[j] Yes, what is written about me is coming to its fulfillment.”
(DIR) Post #AUTJTGCAf7zbReDVKq by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T09:48:08Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @thatguyoverthere @freemo @pj God is never beside the point. A person's position on that question reliably predicts most of his other views. There is a "root" or top level in everyone's mind, and what resides there decides everything else.Jesus was advising a small group of traveling evangelists, for whom getting into a violent confrontation could not possibly help them in their mission. Thus "shake off the dust of that place." He was not referring to all people for all time.
(DIR) Post #AUTJnhtvMYovAFQpw8 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T09:54:18.663639Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @mike805 @pj the point is that yes turning the cheek is something we should all strive toward, but Jesus never said that his disciples should be disarmed. We should not thirst for anger and vengeance, but that doesn't mean there is never a time and place for self defense.
(DIR) Post #AUTJoxSJ174fhB6siW by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-09T09:36:44Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@lmrocha @freemo Voight-Kampff test, that's interesting (and a great scene.) As I recall the test was to provoke an emotional reaction to see if the subject had human-style emotions.Anti-gunners, and other types of prohibitionists, often try to drive the argument toward emotion and away from logic and reasoned debate. And they HATE it when they run into someone who cannot be moved to emotion, and just keeps arguing the logic.
(DIR) Post #AUTJoxwnBlSdDjNEEi by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:52:20Z
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@mike805 @freemo the argument for uncontrolled guns access is not logical. It comes from some metaphysical belief in "God given rights” or from "that's what the founding fathers wanted." It is not based on any logical induction from real evidence. You guys claim guns reduce violent crime, but evidence shows exactly the opposite. This is not logic, it's belief. My take is that you have drunk so much Kool aid that you cannot distinguish belief from evidence and also lost empathy for others, even kids in school.
(DIR) Post #AUTJoyRzJmPkmTy8rQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:54:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha Wrong it comes from1) The numbers show its better for everyone2) Because we have a right to self-defense3) Because we shouldnt be making a chunk of metal illegal because it is in a particular shape4) No one has ever made a coherent reason not to, and as such, the default is to have a right to something until someone makes a very good argument to the contrary.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTK4UQ8jgXWHKVFXU by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:57:18Z
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@freemo @mike805 alas, science is not based on the criteria *you* set forth. I've sent you a large list of peer-reviewed papers from the best medical journals in the world. You say they don't meet *your* criteria and don't send me any paper that remotely validates your claims. Well, good luck with the Dr.Freemo journal!
(DIR) Post #AUTKAYvgsvBq049kv2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T09:58:22Z
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@lmrocha As Ive said multiple times.. sending a large list of copy-pasta peer-reviewed papers that do not remotely address the question being debated is not how you do science either.. .you dont win the debate by pasting the largest number of irrelevant peer reviewed papers, thats not how this works.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTKezAnsLuI55jSJk by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:03:54Z
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@freemo @mike805 the papers I sent are not irrelevant. They are precisely on topic, well performed analyses. You just don't like their results. That's a different matter. Hell, I think that gravity is a bitch, but won't waste time arguing against newton and falling apples.
(DIR) Post #AUTKtYX1D9DvnU4RoO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:06:29Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 The diffference between us is you dont ctually care if a peer reviewed paper is relevant or answers the question.. you are playing a copy-pasta... you paste a bunch of irrelevant papers that do not argue the point being discussed (and explaine din detail many times why) and try to claim you win because you have a longer list... doesnt work that way.As I said sure I could do that too, post a bunch of unrelated peer reviewed articles that make it look like I win.. but I have no interest in playing that game.. Id rather admit that the body of papers on this subject simply doesnt address the question being debated well.
(DIR) Post #AUTKyLv3WxvK82bL0q by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:00:40Z
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@mike805 @thatguyoverthere @freemo @pj wow, so we do have the Gun-Jesus figure after all. Who needs the cross when you have the guns....
(DIR) Post #AUTKyMXLEcY42mVugi by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T10:07:26.273496Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj I guess that's a jab. No one is saying you should be able to use guns to convert people to Christianity, but to pick and choose the things he said (out of context) to support an argument he never made is not going to work. He did want the disciples to be peaceful and slow to anger. He also recognized the dangers of the world and told them to be prepared. These ideas can coexist, and in fact we have quotes from Jesus in the Bible that suggest they do.
(DIR) Post #AUTLHlWCZtRF1cEUQi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:10:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha tthe papers you sent are well performed at answering questions that do **not** apply to our debate and we have covered why.For example some of your papers argued about access to guns increasing **gun violence** which as we already covered is laughably absurd and irrelevant to what we are discussing which is the effect of guns on "all tyes of violence".So yea a barrage of copy pasta that very clearly is ruled out as not answering the question at hand does you no good.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTMuMVpaE3eib1lGS by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T10:29:07.493626Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @mike805 the publishing quality has been questioned publicly more than once too. There is an integrity problem in the scientific publishing community. There is also a repeatability problem that some have even gone so far as to say is a crisis.At the end of the day to me the debate is whether or not any human has more rights than another. It seems like equality is a value many people claim to share, but disarming people because they aren't in the right category argues a different belief set. Everyone has the right to self defense, and that means giving everyone the opportunity to tip the scales in their favor. Sadly criminals abuse that right and by doing so disaffect others of their natural rights. This is when the law should step in. Limiting legal access to firearms only makes it harder for otherwise law abiding citizens to obtain equal or higher footing with criminals.
(DIR) Post #AUTNCxfGBvh19jJ4XQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:32:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Those issues, while valid, arent really the main issue here...When there is a study that says something like "more access to guns means more suicide by guns"... the paper IS correct, peer review was successful and the paper does address that question.The issue is it isnt even remotely addressing the question that is actually relevant of "does access to guns increase/reduce overall violence rates". Papers are designed to answer individual poitns of facts and the peer review process is designed to make sure the math and steps taken are correct... peer review does **not** mean "scientists agree guns are bad", to draw that conclusion you have to use your own brain and be capable enough and understand the topic enough to be able to make the inference from the body of studies to an actual conclusion.@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTOOBdSghqJcrNk2q by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:44:47Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @pj "be prepared" is not the same as "be armed". I was raised Catholic, and the idea of using a Christian conception of God to defend gun-based self-defense is, frankly, diabolical---especially when we know it leads to incident children being killed over and over again.
(DIR) Post #AUTOOC90nP51Ci8wDo by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T10:45:43.120704Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj > if you dont have a sword buy oneNot the same as be armed? :Think:
(DIR) Post #AUTOPqfTcDehAw7IzA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T10:45:57Z
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@lmrocha Except we dont know that, all the data suggests the opposite, banning guns means people die en massem, including kids... But since you have no peer-reviewed data to show that (and neither do I) thats another matter.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTP05hHDPDuDDEyFk by AshChapelsGhost@poa.st
2023-04-09T10:52:34.575448Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @icedquinn @mike805 @freemo You have no idea what you even want to ban, you slogan-swallowing shill. Tell me you're ignorant without telling me you're ignorant.
(DIR) Post #AUTPgLzyzowcvw8u9o by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:00:09Z
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@freemo @mike805 I posted papers in response to you saying there is no evidence that more guns increase mortality. The papers I posted are 100% relevant to the discussion. In both individual households and society at large, greater availability of guns leads to higher mortality (after controlling for all sorts of demographic factors) , not just in suicide but also in homicide rates.You want to argue that such analysis is irrelevant to our discussion, which is absurd. It is very much the central point. You also want to argue that those papers are not considering the whole gestalt of the problem, because they don't account for crimes guns may have prevented. First, that is an orthogonal problem. Even if guns were shown to prevent some crimes (no evidence of that in gun use by civilians), the papers I referred show that, OVERALL, more guns, more death. That is, any putative reduction in crime due to guns, is not sufficient to prevent an increase in mortality with more guns. Now, if this is a topic that interests you, by all means go ahead and publish research that shows that guns reduce some forms of crime, if you can. But a loose hypothesis you have without evidence, does not invalidate the overwhelming conclusion of the papers I showed you. Your dismissal of those, without any peer-reviewed counter evidence is, to use the expression you so like to use, dishonest.
(DIR) Post #AUTSXal33JTBxqfe2C by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:08:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @pj there is much context, and prophecy parallelism, in that passage to make that such a simple case. The sermon on the mount is much more relevant to understand Jesus' moral teachings, than confusing/ambiguous (”two swords are enough”) prophetic statements just prior to arrest. Personally, and this is just me, I read that passage as an indication of the futility of the few arms his disciples could buy from selling their clothes, in the presence of the might of the Roman army. Certainly two swords weird have both been enough... So, I interpret this as as call to focus on what matters about his message, which is the opposite of swords.
(DIR) Post #AUTSXbLYrYg1n5knwm by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:32:13.427007Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj > and he was counted among the lawlessI'm pretty sure this says he (and his disciples by proxy) will be considered outlaws. It seems to me that before this they were considered to be safe from imprisonment, but that he was warning them times are changing and soon they will be wanted criminals.The larger point is that cherry picking turn the other cheek as the only time Jesus spoke on arms or self defense doesn't convince me that arms are against his will. Honestly Leo Tolstoy makes some compelling arguments, but I think at the end of the day that even if a person decides to turn the cheek or allow an intruder to take their stuff or hurt them because of the way they interpret those passages that's separate from forcing people to depend on the government for protection. Especially since we live in a nation with separation of church and state. I may not choose to defend myself, but I still have the right to do so.
(DIR) Post #AUTSXcMJ6Grqvh6ukS by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:31:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @pj I meant: "certainly two swords would not have been enough."
(DIR) Post #AUTSZRTeWoszlCPsO0 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:32:34.727417Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo @pj I figured
(DIR) Post #AUTSmURUoar2imd4qG by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:34:53Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj that is just patently false. All data points to the opposite. No evidence whatsoever (from all other similar countries) that regulating the use of guns leads to people dying en masse. That's just silly and totally false.
(DIR) Post #AUTSvcfZb2QEqLZJMe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:36:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha You have not provided a single study that addresses whatI am arguing.. you can scream about "all data" all you want, but as long as you keep posting completely irrelevant studies that are not addressing what I asserted then you dont have a leg to stand on.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTT6eqtozu2nY80yu by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:38:34.913468Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha @freemo @mike805 @pj A study on gun violence __should__ make sure to separate suicide from homicide. Lumping gun suicides in with gun violence instead of with suicides is stacking the deck in your favor.
(DIR) Post #AUTTMSP7s1zApCffkW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:41:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha @pj Stacking the deck in Luis's favor, especially given the cherry-picked and irrelevant nature of all the studies, is clearly Luis's intent here.
(DIR) Post #AUTTV9XxLsJUwfwpqS by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:43:00.318274Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @mike805 @pj This actually highlights one of the problems with making decisions based on statistics. It's very easy to select data that fits a preformed bias. Some issues are too important to rely on statistics to make decisions on.
(DIR) Post #AUTTYfQ1JDUsfBuZk0 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:43:36Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj I don't have to provide data for what *you* are arguing. That's your job. Go ahead and publish it. I gave you published evidence in strong support of my claim: more guns --> increased mortality. If you have evidence against the current scientific evidence, which can sustain peer-review, by all means publish it. Restating your beliefs without proof (beyond your own mind) is not enough and it is dishonest to claim your belief invalidates current peer-reviewed and replicated studies without demonstration.
(DIR) Post #AUTTcF57AigQ8dq0ye by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:44:17.014805Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @mike805 @pj what percentage of gun suicides would decide life is worth living if they didn't have a gun?
(DIR) Post #AUTTdhudSrN5qUdQmG by Humpleupagus@eveningzoo.club
2023-04-09T11:44:31.542123Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Slaves weren't people, faggot. Have you read The Dred Scott decision? It establishes that you don't have any grasp of history, whatsoever. Opinion disregarded. Simply put. Now that all free men are citizens, they have the right. You lose. Kill yourself.
(DIR) Post #AUTTfIsbVTZQmrRhr6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:44:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere I disagree, the statistics are correct and valuable... the issue isnt the statistics, the issues is that they are being either intentionally abused by cherry picking and not analyzing the data in a way even the most beginer of data scientists would agree is proper.Dont blame the data for some person trying to manipulate it, especially when its trivial to point out that manipulation and shoot it down, as I have done.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTTgJ32MmktbAnuj2 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:45:01.335141Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @mike805 @pj I would expect this paper to have some way to extrapolate that if they choose to lump in suicide?
(DIR) Post #AUTTlOxzmwU5P2sLjs by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:45:56.673228Z
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@freemo @mike805 @lmrocha @pj well that's where I would say the "data" is correct and valid, but the "statistics" are selected from that data to achieve a desired outcome (cherry picked).
(DIR) Post #AUTTotVog3sh0UMPRY by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:46:32Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj yes, the statisticians who publish in the new England journal of medicine and lancet areb known to be rookies... #fantasy
(DIR) Post #AUTTyCPjlmrUEixCZk by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:48:13.499142Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo most Americans cannot articulate current policy or conditions
(DIR) Post #AUTU4AjMwQPekkz6Xo by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:49:20.287342Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @mike805 @pj or they just have a political motive
(DIR) Post #AUTUDiSUuYfnxrdzRA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:50:58Z
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@lmrocha I don’t have to provide data for what you are arguing. That’s your job.No you dont. My stance is that there is no good peer reviewed data that addresses my assertation either way. I am willing to provide non-peer reviewed data I did myself which is perfectly reasonable when there is an absence of peer reviewed data to address a question, though it is fair to take it as preliminary until better studies are availible.Now if you are arguing that there is peer-reviewed data and it proves my relatively weaker evidence wrong, then that is on you to provide, which you have not done. I gave you published evidence in strong support of my claim: more guns –> increased mortality.You keep saying that, saying it doesnt make it true. No you havent, you have not linked to even a single peer reviewed study that addresses what I asserted. You posted soem random studies that address other issues that are different from what I asserted, and playing some rediulous game of “I have more links than you”/As I said if you want to play that game I dont mind posting non-sense peer reviewed articles that dont argue my case but vaguely sound like they do… but I wont stoop to your level, I’d rather keep my integrity as a scientist. If you have evidence against the current scientific evidence, which can sustain peer-review, by all means publish it.there is no current scientific evidence… and you have yet to link to a single paper that addresses the assertion I made, again repeating soemthing that has already been clearly shot down, without actually making a valid argument, wont get you anywhere Restating your beliefs without proof (beyond your own mind) is not enough and it is dishonest to claim your belief invalidates current peer-reviewed and replicated studies without demonstration.Thats not what I said, are you even listening? There is no “current peer-review” for me to invalidate, you have yet to post even a single link to that effect.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTUMpYjseNYapuS6i by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:52:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere The data is correct, the statistics are correct... the interpretation of the statistics is wildly invalid most of the time.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTUSqr3ybfOLgLqxE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:53:43Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lmrocha No one said they were rookies, no one even said they were wrong... I am claiming **you** are a rookie for drawing conclusions from their valid study that is in no way related to what we are discussing... The scientists are fine, you are the only one who seems woefully uneducated on statistics, guns, or any aspect of this conversation.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTUgoKk9CNMaDtGoC by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T11:56:19.233142Z
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@freemo @mike805 @lmrocha @pj I don't mean to say the statistics are invalid, just that they have bias injected which makes them less useful (at least for this discussion). All statistics do. We bias our selection of data, both intentionally and unintentionally.
(DIR) Post #AUTUrxUuPs5UBqxe5Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T11:58:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere That can sometimes be an issue, but no I dont find that is generally the issue here, and peer-review will often catch that... the statistics are fine, and they arent usually biased (sometimes)... its purely an issue with "Here is Statistic X which claims Y"... X is correct, the statement it claims Y is not.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTVDOAeROYGzshjWa by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T12:02:12.274900Z
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@freemo @mike805 @lmrocha @pj I guess this is why "appeal to authority" is considered a logical fallacy. If you appeal to an authority, but you don't actually understand if the argument applies or can't actually articulate the argument yourself it isn't really helping your case and just gets in the way of the discussion.
(DIR) Post #AUTVO3rOIOUhBqmhPc by dew_the_dew@nicecrew.digital
2023-04-09T12:04:08.356192Z
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They didn't want slavery but they didn't want niggers as citizens either, they wanted them back in Africa. Also ITT: Not understanding turn the other cheek as a way to embarrass a Roman soldier by asking him to slap you with his dominant hand thus recognizing you as an equal. Bonus: Not understanding the usage of 'regulated' as meaning "well equipped" as opposed to "with a bunch of rules and shit". There were private warships regulated with cannons and it was based. Now all of you fucking faggots mute me.
(DIR) Post #AUTVO4Cf1JVYFojgZ6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T12:04:03Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Appeal to authority is a fallacy because being an authority doesnt mean you are trustworthy or unbiased, and to determine either of those things you need to be an authority yourself.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTVl8cImDhQbRjM48 by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T12:08:17.060296Z
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@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo do you mean deification
(DIR) Post #AUTWXw6M648pye3ZNw by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T12:16:57Z
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@Moon @mike805 @freemo that would apply too, but, no, I meant reification (including it's Marxist "Verdinglichung” connotations.)
(DIR) Post #AUTWuUIPdwSAOsRwGm by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T12:21:09Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj I thought you were better than this.
(DIR) Post #AUTXqNLLeQK3dIQSci by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T12:31:35Z
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@lmrocha Ditto, but hey if you want to take away my brownie points for calling you out for putting words in scientists mouths thry never said, go for it.Frankly i figured you'd be better than intentually misrepresenting and manipulating the science out of a need to support your biases.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTYT2ufXnpbYyO0xs by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-09T12:38:37Z
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@freemo keep playing fantasy science. I'm out. @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTfaLLc6QDYRXPrU0 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-06T21:25:10Z
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@mike805 @freemo the founders were not gods. Their conception of guns, militia, armies, people (who they thought mattered), rights (for those they throughout mattered) bear absolutely no relevance today. All of those have changed dramatically since then.
(DIR) Post #AUTfaLzfhUGCRm9qvA by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T13:42:08Z
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I might have a suggestion that could satisfy most of the people here:Problem: The perpetrators in mass shootings are mainly “loners” with some unresolved issues.Solution: To be able to legally buy a gun you need to be a member in good standing and have a permit from a “well-regulated militia” (a.k.a. a gun club or society).So the responsibility for the security of a society is neither on the individual nor on the government, but on the society itself.What do you think? Is everybody happy? You have your guns (as many as you wish) and the rest of us are a little bit less concerned we’ll get shot at our place of work, learning, or praying.@lmrocha @mike805 @freemo
(DIR) Post #AUTfaN9HPFXY1rf2XI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T13:58:19Z
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@pjI think the problem is misrepresented. Mass shootings are not the problem, violence overall is and mass shootings is a very low priority when it comes to addressing that. It is too arbitrary and rare to call it the problem@lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTfgrw5qvRpFfahQu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T13:59:30Z
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@lmrocha Hahah thats some impressive projection you have going.See ya@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @pj
(DIR) Post #AUTiCCU5hicVrnYpP6 by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T14:27:37Z
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@freemo @lmrocha @mike805Maybe it is not the problem but it surely is a problem. We can argue about priorities, but I believe a well-regulated ecosystem of gun clubs with proper shooting ranges, competitions, and other social events may go a long way in easing the violence, especially among younger people.
(DIR) Post #AUTiPrCJe0frtwl5n6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T14:30:03Z
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@pjThe issue with trying to address a very small and rare subset of the problem is you often make the larger problem which is more common worse in a desire to fix a less common problem… its similar to premature optimization in software@lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTiwxQ5X0xAksz49A by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T14:36:06.505606Z
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@pj @lmrocha @mike805 @freemo That's actually terrifying. You have to join a militia with a roster that the government approves of, and if ever your club (the people you associate with) is deemed by the state to be hostile to the state you are stripped of your rights.
(DIR) Post #AUTjng8kVWSyVl0sTI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T14:45:34Z
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@pjI think its good to join a gun club, and most gun owners tend to.. but yea requiring membership is a horrible idea imo.@lmrocha @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUTl7XfrnDQw06XUB6 by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T14:56:30Z
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@thatguyoverthere Why is it more terrifying than being all by yourself? Just make sure your club is not hostile to the government.😀 If the government thinks you, or any bunch you are currently associated with, are hostile, you will be stripped of your rights anyway, club or not club. At least in a club that was previously sanctioned by that same government, you have some kind of protection. @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTl7YIrSEcpx2mcxU by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T15:00:25.191383Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha the government can and does regularly decide previously innocuous organizations are hostile. Sometimes it's warranted and sometimes it's political. The reason requiring you to put your name on a list is more terrifying is the same reason I think a national digitized database of firearms ownership would be. It's cute to say "if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" but reality tells a different tale.
(DIR) Post #AUTn6PLjSToHnhhyRE by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:20:48Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @lmrochaIf it helps, think of it as a “gun owners’ fediverse” where each club is an “instance” and the NRA, instead of an association of individuals, is a federation of all the gun clubs of America.Then, instead of taking care primarily of just the needs of their wealthy donors (gun manufacturers), they may start also thinking about the needs of all of their other members and their local societies.
(DIR) Post #AUTn6PzR4rZLmqHgK8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:22:32Z
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@pjThe idea is great except where its required.. it would be like saying if you want access to the internet you need a fediverse instance you join and that gives you permission to get on the internet.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTnsBUgHCw8jCfwcC by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:31:14Z
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@freemoHow don’t you see it is the same situation?I can get access to the Internet from a library or walk onto a shooting range and shoot a few rounds under supervision, but if I want to buy a gun and take it home where there is a risk of harming other people, I have to get an IP subscription and join some of the social platforms where I can “shoot” nonsense like this.😀 @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTo99QpCGvrFsxieu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:34:15Z
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@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrochaDo you think getting on the internet should mean approval from a club thoigh? Cause thats not how we do it now, anyone can get internet and cant be denied.
(DIR) Post #AUToPRh34I2AWgJwAa by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T15:37:16.615633Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha Why do I need to interact with the NRA at all? Why if I want to join the fediverse can't I just join by starting up my own instance (I've done this several times) and start shooting the shit? I mean I never had to get anyone's approval to host my own instance which in your analogy is like starting my own club.Another question. What on earth does the NRA have to do with my natural right to self defense? If they disappeared tomorrow would that somehow mean there isn't a right to self defense anymore?
(DIR) Post #AUTofJpa4HXCm5se5A by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T15:40:09.055497Z
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@pj @freemo @mike805 @lmrocha you literally never HAVE to join any platforms to browse the web. You can run your own server (blog, fedi, game, whatever) and others can access it. If you just want to build something for a local community you could even skip the internet altogether and run a wide area network on your own if you have the resources completely separate from the internet.
(DIR) Post #AUTp0JA7kVzymYUvE8 by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:43:54Z
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@freemoOh, it can.Try downloading child porn or other shit and look how fast it will be denied.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTp6FDjJlXgIJ0zwG by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T15:45:01.059166Z
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@pj @freemo @mike805 @lmrocha and with guns if you attack another person without just cause you will also lose access.
(DIR) Post #AUTpNcc5b3xhljh9vs by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T15:48:08.866441Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@pj @freemo @lmrocha @mike805 you also don't have to provide fedi admins with a state approved ID to join. Some don't even care if the email is valid (big ups IMO). Some people on the internet need privacy just like some people in real life need to have the ability to defend themselves. Not everyone has a strong need for either of these things at all times, but we all should have access to them if ever we do.
(DIR) Post #AUTphymgsKIgK4MRfM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:51:46Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrochaTry shooting someone and watch how fast your gun is taken away… same logic.
(DIR) Post #AUTqVyZPwfeI8bzcMi by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:00:50Z
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@freemo Same answer as to @thatguyoverthere@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTqbRQG6Ikb4NJaee by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:55:07Z
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@thatguyoverthereYes. you can do it all by yourself, but you need an ISP to access the Net, don't you?@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTqbS2XnxNKz7EAKW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:01:46Z
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@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha You also need a gun shop to buy a gun, not sure the analogy works too well honestly
(DIR) Post #AUTqhgQJEzjvKbJaxk by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T15:58:48Z
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@thatguyoverthere Attacking a person is in this analogy akin to physically harming a child as opposed to "just" downloading child porn.Ideally, you would want to prevent evil or sick people to harm anyone.@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTqhh0p3Ewl9qOksK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:02:54Z
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@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha If you physically attack someone with a gun you loose the gun... how do you physically attack someone on the internet though? Not sure i follow
(DIR) Post #AUTrFrbw9V75sI3ImG by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:03:26Z
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@thatguyoverthere No, but your ISP always knows who you are.@mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTrFs8CDYuxUL943k by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:09:03Z
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@pj No you can buy prepaid 5g for your router and have anonymous internet if you want.Thats what i do in Israel, my internet is completely anonymous.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTrsd5o43pK8nVaSG by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:16:09Z
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@freemoThe problem is that you don't need a gun shop to buy a gun or the shop doesn't care who they sell their guns to.This is the same as if you could access the internet from your computer without an ISP. Imagine what a shitshow the Internet would be then compared to what it is already is now.If you could only buy a gun from a gun shop, I believe more than half of all the problems we have now with gun violence would go away. @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTrxPNQUFnb3A1q0u by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:16:59Z
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@freemoBuy how, in cash? @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTs3ovWPDxk1s2Am8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:18:06Z
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@pj Yea you just buy top up cards from the phone store in cash.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTsClehwBHgURR57Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:19:44Z
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@pj I have nonproblems with making sure the usual background check from a gun were enforced on all purchases. So if thats all you are puahing for you have my support@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTsEM5LygpPlSekG8 by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:20:03Z
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@freemoYes, I've said it is not the same. @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTshcoQrkja2ZhMMy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T16:25:18Z
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@pj Fair@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTwKdpXJc3cLyVjTU by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T17:06:00Z
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@freemoYes. That would be a good start. My suggestion was though to try seeing things from a larger perspective.I believe that one of the problems is that too many individuals are #alienated from their immediate local (physical) #community while fulfilling their "communal needs" primarily with strangers over the Internet except for #Work and maybe #Church, which is obviously not enough, and sometimes even adds to further alienation.I think people should be free (or even encouraged) to form their own local societies with real people they get to know because of things they feel strongly about, and guns seemed like one such catalyst to increase the number of "good guys" and minimize the harm done by "bad guys" with guns.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTwwsQLVLiKcRxat6 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T17:12:57.787045Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha you can build your own networks without if you so choose, but yes to join the larger "Net" you need someone on the network to grant you access. For personal access there are a variety of methods both that are tied to identity and anonymous (some of questionable legality), and for hosting services yourself the same is true. You don't even need a domain name if you don't want, but if you do there are ways to acquire one without exposing a real identity.
(DIR) Post #AUTxAlZflflXQhwhSi by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T17:15:28.396033Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha brandishing then :shrug: there are laws that prevent people from using weapons to intimidate.It is much easier to regulate human behavior than inanimate objects.
(DIR) Post #AUTxENjgLCrwecLrA8 by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T17:16:07.680269Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha not always
(DIR) Post #AUTxGdZwPOGMMws3Ps by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T17:16:32.151112Z
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@freemo @pj @mike805 @lmrocha i think maybe brandishing might be like bullying
(DIR) Post #AUTy8OfW3m8HlQ74LI by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T17:20:46Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrochaOne more thought about the analogy between ISPs and gun clubs with regard to privacy, and then I'll shut up.Long ago, I received a letter from my ISP that they got a request from an entertainment company to get my ID because they want to sue me for downloading one of their pirated series from somewhere (which I did). They were just informing me of that fact and that they won't comply with the request if I stopped.Well, I'm not downloading anymore (streaming is better) and even if I moved a couple of times, I'm still with the same ISP.So being a member of a good club (who knows who you are) sometimes also means you can protect your #privacy better.
(DIR) Post #AUTy8PmdulQZDoSH5c by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T17:26:10Z
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@pj No need to shut up.. Disagreeing and talking about this is healthy, even if no one changes their mind the exercise is healthy.As long as you stay respectful, as you have, please feel free to keep brining up as many points as you want.being in a gun club, taking gun training, and everything in that regard which you suggest is a good thing. I totally encourage people join gun clubs... where the analogy breaks down is when you suggest it be a legal requirement (rather than a strong suggestion) for gun ownership.There are a few reqasons gun licensing or requiring clubs is problematic... 1) it means some entity can take away your rights if they feel you arent living up to their expectations, this has the potential to be abused, specifically if those clubs that have the power are decided on by the government2) It can delay your access to a gun, and if you are in danger that may cost you your life. a good example of that would be someone with a restraining order who might be at risk of being raped. They cant wait3) Unless done very carefully it would effectively act as a registery for who does and doesnt have guns. This can potentially be used by a corrupt government to track down and take away said guns should the government want to infringe on gun rights and become oppressive.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUTzyMCQaLMH7Oqc0e by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T17:46:48Z
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@freemoNo worries. The “shut up” part was a figure of speech😀. Many tried, unsuccessfully.“legal requirement” vs. “strong suggestion”? I can work with that as long as it minimizes the chances of “bad guys” legally getting their hands on guns (e.g. more than a dozen AR-15s)Specifically:1) Not if being part of a club, who is a member of the NRA means you are more protected than as an isolated individual.2) If you need to arm the victim to protect themselves from being raped by someone they have a restraining order on, that order and the agency that issued it is worth as much as the paper the order is written on.3) See 1) @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUU1AQ8drkoelQOQdc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T18:00:08Z
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@pj 1) Not if being part of a club, who is a member of the NRA means you are more protected than as an isolated individual.right, you should be just as protected if you buy a gun and have no association to the NRA, both protection in terms of the ability to use a gun to defend yourself, as well as protected from having yoru gun taken 2) If you need to arm the victim to protect themselves from being raped by someone they have a restraining order on, that order and the agency that issued it is worth as much as the paper the order is written on.When has a restraining order ever provided any protection of any kind against a person who chooses to rape you? the only thing a restraining order would do is make it easier to get the person arrested after the fact (since you only need to prove they were near you, not that they raped you)… But no restraining order in any country would do anything to physically prevent a person from raping you if they decided they were going to… so I dont follow your logic here.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUUCryzVG9o0nz5pNQ by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T20:11:16Z
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@freemoYes. That’s exactly my point.You should be, as an individual, protected from being killed, raped, or prevented to use a gun for legitimate reasons, but in this imperfect world you are not, so joining a group or club or some other kind of people’s #system gives you more protection than if you are facing all of that alone. In some way, these community-sanctioned associations can become a replacement for gangs.I think this applies to 2) as well. Instead of just shoving a gun into the victim’s hands and calling it done, set up a women’s shelter or some other safe community place they can use, or get a GPS tracker on the bozo. Yes, it will violate his human rights and hurt his feelings, but who cares.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUUD7GdzuLt7toK2TI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T20:14:03Z
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@pjIf you ever find or make a society where I am better protected from rape, murder, and violent acts without a gun than with a gun then i will be the first to join you there… For now that does not and never has existed.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUUDx7uTcuMnrvl60m by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-09T20:23:26Z
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@freemoOh, there are plenty of countries like that. I believe you are in one right now. Didn’t bring a gun with you, did you? @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUUDyL9zqcLRFmb37A by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-09T20:23:42.743309Z
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@pj @freemo @mike805 @lmrocha bonus points if you make the "safe space" a gun free zone
(DIR) Post #AUUE2mDNCZRiJtI83c by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-09T20:24:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pjYou are delusional (no disrespect intended) if you think this or any other place I will be safe from all violent acts.No I dont have a gun here, and my life is more at risk than if I was allowed one, and had one.@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUXU4MbpYSoyE3ODL6 by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-11T10:08:10Z
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@freemo That is just completely false. Compute all statistics you want. Your odds of dying from a gun (suicide or homicide, together or separately) in Europe are lower than in the US. And if your US household has guns, you are much more likely to get shot than if it doesn't (after controlling for income, neighborhood, etc ). Guns don't make you or society safety. They just make you feel that way. But feeling is not science. Don't bother saying you computed this otherwise in some data savvy way, if you have not published it. And don't insult us with saying we don't know statistics. I have been doing AI and data science professionally since the late 80s with the resume and published work to back that up.@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUXUSvs86FnaXdjEgq by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-11T10:12:39.425240Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @pj @mike805 is gun violence the only kind of violence that matters? Focusing on a single category of violence and ignoring all others is a little strange, especially if the argument is that guns have an impact on other kinds of violence which is what I think freemo has been arguing pretty consistently from the beginning. If I didn't know any better I would think it's almost like you are trying to avoid actually confronting his argument.
(DIR) Post #AUXhGyUbpUBQbAM6VM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-11T12:36:02Z
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@lmrocha There you go with antivaxxer logic.. you are entierly right that in a society with guns your chance of dying by a gun is higher than in countries without guns. No one ever argued anything to the contrary.What you sayin is thr intellectually equivelant argument of "In a society where vaccines are illegal far fewer people die of vaccines...Well duh, irrelevant what you said, but duh ;)@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUXjtQAfZOq7M0UOlk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-11T13:05:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Most people who argue political stuff arent really engaging, thinking, and learning.. they have these talking points they just repeat and because when they were with other people who agreed it soubded bulletproof so they stopped engaging and just parrot these points.. when you challenge them and point out the fkaws thry arent prepared so all thry can do is keep reverting to their unrelated talking points and hope no one notices the inconsistency.He keeps talki g about gu violence despite the fact that what he said i admitted as true from the first moment, I also pointed out why its entierly irrelevant to what i was actually saying, that last part though i guess he doesnt want to hear because then he woukd have to actually construct a valid defense to address it, and he probably doesnt have one.@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUXlC4Scc471TbLKvQ by lmrocha@qoto.org
2023-04-11T13:20:02Z
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@freemo that is very silly. Vaccines demonstrably save many lives (with antibiotics the key reason for population explosion in xx century). In contrast there is zero, zilch, nada evidence that guns save lives ---the net effect in killings is demonstrably more death as you acknowledged, while the opposite is true for vaccines. You think they do, but, alas, no demonstration. This comparison with anti-vaxxers makes no sense at all @pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUXlYZOcHCnDn9CKrA by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-11T13:24:09.694323Z
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@lmrocha @freemo @pj @mike805 lol it's like you really aren't paying attention. He never said that you were arguing an anti-vax position, but that you are using techniques he's run into when discussing the vaccine issue. Things like completely ignoring the actual argument he's making and relentlessly attacking a strawman he's already lit on fire.
(DIR) Post #AUXrMmJV1VZs6XZ5yi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-11T14:29:11Z
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@lmrocha It is undeniable guns save lives, we have countless examples of it.What you mean to say is that guns take more lives than they save... but when you refuse to show data that actually examines that question its all just hot air. You keep using thr antivax argument rather than addressing the question.@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805
(DIR) Post #AUY5dcZzrjcsCFCuAa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-11T17:09:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere It really is hard to get a good faith discussion.. I guess that would risk having to accept that maybe its not as clear cut as the talking points suggest@mike805 @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUYKXwFbJaiomQPoiu by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-11T19:56:12.588978Z
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@freemo @mike805 @lmrocha @pj true of so many topics these days (maybe forever?)
(DIR) Post #AUYMunGp4MjNUs0rDc by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-11T20:21:07Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@thatguyoverthere @freemo @lmrocha @pj well the ancient Greeks summarized the logical fallacies. And probably about 90% of the media's content would fall into one of these categories.
(DIR) Post #AUYa6tBcCMgqixfu52 by winestock@qoto.org
2023-04-11T22:35:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mike805 @thatguyoverthere @freemo @lmrocha @pj Actually, the medieval Scholastics summarized logical fallacies as we know them. E.g., “argumentum ad hominem” is Medieval Latin (note the prepositional phrase).
(DIR) Post #AUYhqPXtQvYXnMkUMa by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T00:17:14Z
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@freemo @pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha You will not be protected from any violent act by a gun in any but extreme cases. In the normal case, even in the violent country you are in, you are protected by human togetherness, understanding. If you ever need a gun for protection, you are already in a very bad place. I hope you never experience this. In any case, don’t think of the worst case as the only one. If you do that, you give up a lot of the positive things we think about as “humanity”.
(DIR) Post #AUYi3IA6CIH6ewlGhk by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T00:19:34Z
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@freemo Another thing, or another angle perhaps? You will never be safe, not in the absolute sense. Not with a gun, not without one. There is no absolute certainty.
(DIR) Post #AUYlRyuVD8ba3OvlUe by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T00:57:40.732150Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @pj @mike805 @lmrocha owning a firearm and being proficient with them really isn't any different than having a spare tire or a hammer in terms of preparedness except perhaps the consequences of not being prepared could be life or death. The situation which requires a tool you don't possess or have the skills to use is a bad situation. Sure you may never need it, and that's great.One use of firearms that this conversation has been mostly void of is hunting and protecting animals under your care from predators. No amount of perfection in humanity will resolve the need for weapons to exist.
(DIR) Post #AUZ1rQ4swFXKonwH0y by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T00:59:54Z
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@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha @pj What are you talking about? I read your toot twice, and i have no idea what you try to say in relation to the conversation.
(DIR) Post #AUZ1rQjIVzrYq8qY0O by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T04:01:32.170641Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha @pj maybe you aught to read it again.
(DIR) Post #AUZ1uQDqrDE88TZ3oW by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-12T01:45:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @pj @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha yes it's the extreme case, both individually and collectively, that requires a gun. But if one of those cases comes up, a gun is often the only thing that will solve it.Moreover, those extreme cases are less likely to come up if guns are available.Switzerland doesn't get invaded for a couple of reasons. Terrain is one, armed citizenry is another.Police stations and gun stores rarely get robbed for the same reason.
(DIR) Post #AUZ29l2jjEP53Og71M by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-12T02:59:23Z
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@mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrochaThe proponents of “guns for all” cite two reasons as far as I can understand:1️⃣ Protection from violent individuals with or without guns, and2️⃣ Protection from a rogue government that wants to take your guns.In the first case, the regulation of gun ownership is not an issue, while in the second it is irrelevant because you are already in the middle of a civil war and, one way or another, you’ll find or be given a gun soon.
(DIR) Post #AUZ29lfjOFaz0KvFnk by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T03:01:22Z
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@pj @mike805 @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha seems right, but what do you respond to? Was there any claim to the opposite? This thread is messed up…
(DIR) Post #AUZ29mFXF8EenNfqbo by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-12T03:13:24Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenIt was was “triggered” by @mike805 mention of “extreme cases” needing guns and the example of Switzerland where (if understand that correctly) each canton (state) has its own “well-regulated militia” (or was so in the past?) not sure.Anyway, responding to nothing in particular. Just a general observation, as having a gun registry seems to be a big issue in the US.@freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUZ29mqP23j4divI4e by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-12T03:53:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha well the classic counter example for a gun registry was Germany in the 1920s. They had a crime wave, and a gun registry was one thing they decided to do to fight it.The next administration found other uses for the gun registry: disarming anyone they didn't like.The UK had a complete gun registry and was able to confiscate all the legally held handguns in the country. Now look what the UK has turned into.That's why we oppose it.
(DIR) Post #AUZ2GMqA71xa17wrLM by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T04:03:03Z
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@thatguyoverthere I see. Killing is eternal. May death come to all.
(DIR) Post #AUZ2GNOu1rkVksCbUe by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T04:06:01.889472Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven pretending reality doesn't exist in hope of Utopia is futile masturbation afaict
(DIR) Post #AUZcOQOEOc3ngz1cjw by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T03:58:31Z
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@mike805 @pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha Umm, registering guns means knowing who has guns. Registering the religious afffiliation or similar would be a totally different thing. And the thing needed seems more like "don't give everyone that is frightened a gun", like we have here... if you shoot in competitions, you have a need. If you want a shooty thing, maybe not?
(DIR) Post #AUZcORA5WgLE5PPqKm by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-04-12T04:29:15Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@admitsWrongIfProven @pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha in politics, as in war, there is the concept of defensible ground.The minimal defensible ground for gun rights is the right to defend one's own home with deadly force.Surrender that, and there is no defensible ground in the way of confiscation.Example: the UK. They had long since given up the right to self-defense, but collectors could own pistols.One long-time collector went homicidal. Result: total handgun confiscation.
(DIR) Post #AUZcORmjD1FY1FUhYu by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T04:33:23Z
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@mike805 @pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha So, this is it? You stand with your weapon, no social network whatsoever? I'm happy i am not you. I can sleep. You cannot. Good night.
(DIR) Post #AUZcOSJhERcZfUv1wu by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T10:50:52.479218Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @pj @freemo @lmrocha wut? How does one go from "I should have the right to self defense" to "I have no friends, I'm miserable." Quite the leap.
(DIR) Post #AUZcXeZL30okH4cZSy by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T04:16:55Z
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@thatguyoverthere You'll never be alone again. You'll never die again. You'll never be born again. You'll forever be stuck here, in eternity. Our own human thing we do. What do you want that thing to be?
(DIR) Post #AUZcXf5b74cbt7iKkS by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T10:52:33.656267Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven are you asking me what utopia would be like if I could imagine it? I don't really see a point to the exercise. Seems more like a question for chatgpt
(DIR) Post #AUZcsXZ6Hb5qdLTAO0 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T04:07:17Z
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@thatguyoverthere Yes, i like that too! Masturbation for all! Masturbate as the dispurv says, masturbate! masturbation nation!
(DIR) Post #AUZcsY0Oe6va00Exvs by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T10:56:20.442679Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven funny enough there was an article going around saying there might not be enough meatsuits for ww3 because war aged men are fapping too much.
(DIR) Post #AUZdbrE02FrqddCzce by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-12T11:04:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere We passed in hyper ole town a long time ago.@mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUZeFHe3jstXsCCJYO by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T11:11:39.599730Z
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@freemo @mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @lmrocha @pj yeah I think this is a recent participant (last night was the first I noticed anyway) but each reply is more ludicrous than the last.
(DIR) Post #AUZgayf7CJzRHHACnI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-12T11:37:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Yea its been escalating. Very common when a person runs out of runway for their argument.@mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @lmrocha @pj
(DIR) Post #AUZjBV1YYPFFyoCeSO by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T12:06:07Z
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@thatguyoverthere You go off topic, i can do so too. Happy to see the counter counter stirred something, at least.
(DIR) Post #AUZjBVfc9THtz2wdtY by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T12:07:00.074024Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I never went off topic you just didn't comprehend what I said.
(DIR) Post #AUZk9BR0W44wbCZDoe by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T12:08:38Z
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@thatguyoverthere Lol, you know better what i wanted to talk about than myself, i see. If you treat everyone like they were ChatGpt, people will look like ChatGpt to you.
(DIR) Post #AUZk9C8btwxOmQy2mO by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T12:17:47.070337Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven you joined a days long conversation. Why should it move to whatever you feel like talking about? Start a new thread.
(DIR) Post #AUZkJ0cPaK3fwvaQds by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T12:19:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere The sensible suggestion would be to @ only the person i meant, specifically. I admit i messed up there, sorry. Post range is my weakness, i often leave it too public for what i mean to say. You were not the intended recipient.
(DIR) Post #AUZkQo6ZzeBDSMPqDo by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T12:20:58.345462Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven it's sensible to say that a conversation is generally about a specific topic too. I don't even care if you go off topic, but don't tell me I did haha.
(DIR) Post #AUZkXy5XH5A6RhLHEm by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T12:22:16.144184Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven post scope can be tricky... Pleroma does a pretty good job of maintaining scope ime, but remembering to reduce scope is still a thing
(DIR) Post #AUZkvnFXDxlfmQNcNk by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T12:23:10Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere You know what... this answer, i made unlisted. Messed it up again until now ^^
(DIR) Post #AUZkvnjfPvs3HsTgLg by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T12:26:34.116706Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven it happens. Does your ui maintain it once it's set? What I mean is, when replying to limited scope posts do you have to reset it each time or does it set the reply scope to match the op?
(DIR) Post #AUZnS7OA5BU9PoxMPo by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T12:29:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Yes, it does. The hard part is thinking about setting it at the start. I guess greying out the toot button until it is set once would help, but i'm not a web developer (using the browser interface).
(DIR) Post #AUZnS7zjpTXjIMXMzA by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T12:54:48.979963Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I think the default behavior of using current scope is probably better wrt replies, but a user override/preference for default scope or forcing selection wouldn't hurt people who are comfortable with the way it is. Such a setting may already exist in some frontends. It would probably not be cool to just change that behavior at this point.
(DIR) Post #AUZpMdkv1tk3yG7I2q by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-04-12T13:06:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere Yeah, i'm talking about for me, didn't mean that it should be changed for anyone else.
(DIR) Post #AUZpYkEclZ8lXZmbTM by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T13:18:25.964576Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven if you are using pleromafe or soapbox maybe dig into the settings and see if there are defaults. I think pleroma fe has a bunch of user preferences (soapbox I dont think is quite as customizable per user but could be wrong)
(DIR) Post #AUa08E9qVKtY1Q6dGq by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-12T15:16:52Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere Yes, a little bit of an agitated reaction from @admitsWrongIfProven but nothing so overblown or any major excalation as the two of you are presenting it.And you may agree that a heavily armed person with unresolved issues and no social support or interactions is a very scarry proposition.@mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUa9mxuSibpf5cPW7M by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-12T17:05:01Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj I have no real issue with admits. Like yea its bad faith argument but nothing so vile that i had to raise ajy real issues.@thatguyoverthere @admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUaB88dQ8bOqO96E1g by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T17:20:08.105923Z
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@freemo @pj @admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @lmrocha same I just think it's kinda funny when people make silly leaps. Same when PJ asked if I was going to shoot him for some reason completely unprovoked.
(DIR) Post #AUaINHf1YrsmP91D9s by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-12T18:41:17Z
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@freemo @thatguyoverthere @admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @lmrochaWhy do you think it's a bad faith argument?
(DIR) Post #AUaIyGfKDxaG25nKTY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-12T18:47:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj @thatguyoverthere @admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @lmrocha In tbis case im refering to the fact that he is just trolling at this point. Earlier it wasnt bad faith... but also no important, he isnt doing anything wrong.
(DIR) Post #AUaLWCgdius1Rlidzk by pj@qoto.org
2023-04-12T18:39:09Z
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@thatguyoverthereYou obviously never heard of sarcasm. That's what I was using (in the context of the discussion) while "standing my ground" after your rather bullyish suggestion I should "move on". @mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @lmrocha
(DIR) Post #AUaLWDOF6nkTd07SxU by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-12T19:16:30.798002Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pj @mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @lmrocha you are right sarcasm is a completely new concept to me. 🙄sometimes it doesn't translate well to plain text, especially when you don't have any real conversation history with a person. I have known people to mask real contempt as sarcasm in the past which is also difficult to determine in this context.Sometimes it's useful to incorporate some kind of indicator that you are being sarcastic if a risk of confusion exists.
(DIR) Post #AUb3YkCiTQSzxfkDFg by jaysonmassey@qoto.org
2023-04-13T03:29:58Z
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@freemo There are limits, it's THE REST OF THE AMENDMENT. Why was there an assault weapons ban then? It's okay for Congress to limit it and the President to agree to limit it. Not hard to understand. If what you're saying was true, you wouldn't need an amendment at all. It would be considered okay to do, like slavery was.
(DIR) Post #AUbE7GUBxKN5TA1API by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-13T05:28:14Z
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@jaysonmassey No nothing in tbe rest of tbe amendment imposes limits. Tbe rest of the amendment simply explains why jt is neccesary that gun rights not be infringed.No its not ok for the president or congress to limit it short of writing and passing an amendment itself, which thry never dis.Not sure why your saying it woukd be ok to limit if my saying was true or what it has to do with slavery, not following you on that part.