Post AUFbhkdwTRldnpueJs by blaine@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by blaine@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AUFRISqiUlvrpoBvjE by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T17:08:20Z
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With posts like this, it's becoming really clear and important that we disentangle "the Fediverse" from "Mastodon."@Gargron, you've done great work that we're all grateful for, but you're standing on the shoulders of many, many others that you rarely credit or acknowledge.This attitude isn't what we built the fediverse for. š¢
(DIR) Post #AUFWi5C7Z6nrlqEpxw by Gargron@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T17:14:48Z
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@blaine See thread: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/110130251661383127
(DIR) Post #AUFWi5rx3aGPrZoFAO by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T17:21:25Z
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@Gargron I think your replies there are not great. š¢You and Mastodon GmbH benefit massively from the immense amount of work that the wider fediverse community does.While I appreciate the perspective that the software != the community, I respectfully disagree. The decisions for the software impact the community, as we heard so profoundly at the Black Twitter Summit. The concern I have is that you often conflate the software and the community when it suits, but reject it when it doesn't.
(DIR) Post #AUFWi6X4ah9nv735GK by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T17:29:26Z
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@Gargron like it or not, "Mastodon" isn't just "Mastodon GmbH" or even just the software āĀ it refers to the Fediverse in common usage. That's a tension that's not going away, and I profoundly worry about the your suggestion (understandable, at some level) that your org will exert control over what does and does not constitute "Mastodon."
(DIR) Post #AUFWi77EQG53jFxxce by Gargron@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T17:41:21Z
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@blaine I will have to maintain that Mastodon refers to the Mastodon software, or that part of the fediverse that is running on the Mastodon software, and cannot and should not be used as a synonym for the fediverse overall. But this isn't what the thread was about at all.
(DIR) Post #AUFWi7W2vzviyDZmIi by peepstein@mstdn.social
2023-04-02T17:55:06Z
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@Gargron @blaine you donāt get to control that. Mastodon has become like āKleenexā instead of āfacial tissueā and it is very possible that it a court of competent jurisdiction takes away some of your rights to control how āMastodonā is used. If enough people do use the term āMastodonā to mean to āFediverseā, eventually you will lose your trademark rights.
(DIR) Post #AUFWi8UJJw8Tz7luEa by peepstein@mstdn.social
2023-04-02T18:00:05Z
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@blaine @Gargron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
(DIR) Post #AUFWi933ElvPis1eNs by Gargron@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T18:11:34Z
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@peepstein @blaine I am not aware of anyone who is using "Mastodon" to refer to the fediverse. When somebody says "join Mastodon", I have not seen a single case where what they actually meant was "sign up on Pixelfed or Pleroma". Mastodon is a platform that is part of the fediverse but is distinct by its software.
(DIR) Post #AUFY2v5IRv48RyXuNs by chancerydaily@masto.ai
2023-04-02T17:32:51Z
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@blaine @Gargron I prefer the term Fediverse ngl, it sounds so much cooler to outsiders anyway!
(DIR) Post #AUFY32Sx0N97LMfOj2 by chancerydaily@masto.ai
2023-04-02T17:34:47Z
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@blaine @Gargron mastodon might have cachĆ© in the open source community but among outsiders, I think itās important and brand beneficial to use the term Fediverse, on all levels, and this just adds another reason to support my choice
(DIR) Post #AUFbhdD66r8QkYIc0O by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T18:13:40Z
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@Gargron @peepstein this is very far from my experience.e.g., I've had many conversations with journalists who equate the fediverse with Mastodon, and most laypeople who have heard of Mastodon don't know what the fediverse is, but understand "mastodon" to refer to the thing I understand "the fediverse" to be.
(DIR) Post #AUFbhdkm5e4cR03VUu by Gargron@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T18:24:32Z
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@blaine @peepstein If they don't know what the fediverse is, how could they be referring to it? It seems like the disparity comes from your own understanding. If I ask "How many MAU are there on Pixelfed?", I am not asking about a specific Pixelfed server, nor am I asking about the fediverse overall. Why should it be different for Mastodon?
(DIR) Post #AUFbheIo37IO8XygXg by peepstein@mstdn.social
2023-04-02T18:31:44Z
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@blaine @Gargron I donāt think you realize the minefield here. Remember a few facts: APIs cannot be copyrighted, a federation of computers on the public internet is not an own-able thing, and an organization has to be extremely deliberate in order to avoid a name becoming a generic trademark. āLinuxā is not Debian nor SUSE nor RedHat, but all of those things are definitely Linux. So good luck with Mastodon, itās probably a lost cause.
(DIR) Post #AUFbhetJrMVDxn3qSG by jaredwhite@indieweb.social
2023-04-02T18:44:24Z
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@peepstein @blaine @Gargron I don't agree with any of that. Mastodon is Mastodon. Everyone in the know, knows exactly what that is, and those who don't can be educated accordingly. I've already gone through this entire conversation with regard to the term "podcast" (no, it does not mean "any audio show on the internet"!)It's really quite dangerous to repurpose technical terms to mean what they are not. HTML is not any markup, it's a very specific type of markup. Markdown is not Textile. etc.
(DIR) Post #AUFbhfTTgvQTlvyioa by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T18:50:06Z
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@jaredwhite @peepstein @Gargron I think the point is that it doesn't matter what any of us think if common usage overrides our intent or understanding.All that matters is that we correctly assess how terms are used and understood, and work from that basis.My OP was calling out the need to disentangle "Mastodon" from "the Fediverse" if (and only if) the intent of Mastodon GmbH was to assert trademark control against "non-conformant" forks (or, indeed, non-derived fediverse software).
(DIR) Post #AUFbhg3HXo49YyjJce by Gargron@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T18:54:36Z
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@blaine @jaredwhite @peepstein I'm disappointed your OP is still up even though it has nothing to do with trademark control, forks, or the fediverse, and is an out of context screenshot of a targeted reply to someone specific as explained in the linked thread.
(DIR) Post #AUFbhgfDGmPJScTbkG by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T19:00:18Z
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@Gargron @jaredwhite @peepstein removed. I'm not looking for an argument over miscommunications. šI do think the trademark issue is real, and disagree with your assessment that people understand the difference between "Mastodon" and "the Fediverse"; you have a lot of power in this space, and your words carry a lot of weight.
(DIR) Post #AUFbhh4jjsp8jmPzWq by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T18:52:46Z
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@jaredwhite @peepstein @Gargron i.e., can something like TakahÄ claim to be part of the Mastodon network?If not, we need to collectively take steps to discourage the use of Mastodon as a generic term. On the other hand, I'd argue that Eugen & co benefit massively from Mastodon's use as a generic term, and as long as they're okay to cede some control, (for what very little it's worth) I personally support them in taking advantage of that!
(DIR) Post #AUFbhhBTKqDB4fZN1k by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-04-02T19:08:47Z
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@blaine @Gargron @jaredwhite @peepsteinI wish the server wasn't called mastodon.social. that would help a lot imo.
(DIR) Post #AUFbhkdwTRldnpueJs by blaine@mastodon.social
2023-04-02T19:06:12Z
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@Gargron @jaredwhite @peepstein When I tried to decentralize Twitter, it was so that Jack and I and the other handful of white men in the room *wouldn't* be in charge.I'm not in a position of power now, nor do I want to be. But I do feel very emotionally attached to the wider project of the fediverse, and hope that those who do have power can find ways to work openly and collaboratively, *especially* through disagreements, without resorting to "my way or the highway."
(DIR) Post #AUFcPiwIAeBfG9SnNw by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-04-02T17:29:23Z
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@blaine considering this is an active conversation in the project discord, taking a small section of a wider conversation seems pretty disingenuous...
(DIR) Post #AUFd0MKxAUInsHT3cO by tallship@social.sdf.org
2023-04-02T19:23:31Z
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@Gargron @peepstein @blaine Really Eugen?Your interview with Time Magazine notwithstanding?That was IMO, a grave error on your part - conflating mastodon with #Fediverse and without one single utterance of the word "Fediverse" throughout.It served to cause much of this confusion on the part of n00bs and as a result, now jeopardizes your trademark.Fact: There's no such thing as a mastodon network. Only the #ActivityPub powered Fediverseāµ .
(DIR) Post #AUG02r6k22tapiyn9E by steve@social.technoetic.com
2023-04-02T23:41:40Z
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@tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine Of course, the "Fediverse" (whatever that is, exactly) is not just powered by ActivityPub. For example, there is Diaspora, Matrix, Nostr, Zot, and so on. Of the part that is powered by some variant of ActivityPub, Mastodon has about 84% marketshare according to the statistics gatherers. That may be why it's so easy to conflate the two? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_software_and_protocols_for_distributed_social_networking
(DIR) Post #AUG5qqgwLwPVnCZLiy by tallship@social.sdf.org
2023-04-03T00:46:45Z
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@steve @Gargron @peepstein @blaine Yes indeed!I do include, as do many others including some of the Fediverse database directories, #OStatus, #ZOT, #Diaspora, #ActivityPub, #Matrix, and now even #nostr - thanks in large part due to the seamless interoperability #Mostr and a couple of other efforts are providing š#tallshipāµ.
(DIR) Post #AUUNH01LZEEUmQWTtQ by kidehen@mastodon.social
2023-04-03T17:02:05Z
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@steve@technoetic.com,To perform the following actions, in loosely-coupled fashion, across #SocialMedia enclaves (or #DataSpaces) you need an open protocol (what #ActivityPub offers):1. Create Posts (or Notes)2. Follow Post (or Note) Authors3. Like or UnLike a Post 4. Announce (or Boost) a Post5. Delete PostThe collective arising from ActivityPub usage is the #Fediverse.Mastodon has made the above both popular and broadly accepted./cc @tallship@sdf.org @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AUUNH1XHvxNRTmTVJo by kidehen@mastodon.social
2023-04-03T17:05:45Z
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@steve,The @Mastodon and #Fediverse confusion is partly due to the fact that Mastodon only supports the Server-Server aspect of #ActivityPub while using its own #API for Client-Server interactions. Net effect, it has the lions share of clients generally perceived as Fediverse clients -- which is a strategic point of vulnerability over the longterm, IMHO. /cc @tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AUUNH2Z66iQ0fgKSmG by steve@social.technoetic.com
2023-04-03T17:25:03Z
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@kidehen @Mastodon @tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet Interesting point. If the "Fediverse" is about federation then the S2S aspect of #ActivityPub enables that federation, not the AP C2S part (which doesn't even require a federated server). For that reason, I think clients using the Mastodon C2S API are actually Fediverse clients (among others). If you'd like a challenging exercise, try defining the full Mastodon C2S API using the AP C2S spec (including event streaming, etc.)
(DIR) Post #AUUNH3QGv0x9KbCvey by kidehen@mastodon.social
2023-04-03T19:46:58Z
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@steve,Yes, Server-Server (#S2S) is handling the federation aspect, but it gets tripped up in the broader sense of loose-coupling of clients and servers which is quite important. The #Fediverse benefits from clients with rich #UI/#UX available to all #ActivityPub servers rather than just @Mastodon -- especially if that's kinda forced via its platform-specific #API.This concern is from experience re #SocialMedia platform dynamics š /cc @tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AUUNH418hwRZAwSN7o by steve@social.technoetic.com
2023-04-03T20:46:20Z
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@kidehen I understand your concern. The somewhat good news is the Mastodon C2S API is not platform-specific or tightly coupled in the sense that any platform can implement it and be compatible with the same rich clients. For example, I've written my own experimental AP server that also implements the Mastodon C2S API. That enables me to use third-party rich UIs to interact with my server./cc @Mastodon @tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AUUNH4oPkjrJdlVivg by kidehen@mastodon.social
2023-04-03T23:17:27Z
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@steve,Yes, I understand that. We (@openlink) have also built a generic #ActivityPub client and server -- hence my concern about why this isn't a @Mastodon option. Why not add consistent ActivityPub protocol support on the #C2S front alongside what exists on the #S2S front. This can all co-exist with the Mastodon native #API thereby increases choice on the front and backend side of thing re the burgeoning #Fediverse š /cc @tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet
(DIR) Post #AUUNH5imNAwgSZsjmi by kidehen@mastodon.social
2023-04-03T23:24:00Z
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@steve,Links to our generic #ActivityPub client related repo.[1] https://github.com/OpenLinkSoftware/ActivityPub -- bash shell script that incorporates python and curl[2] https://github.com/OpenLinkSoftware/Data-Entry-Form-AuthV2 -- Single Page HTML App (basically Javascript for the ActivityPub interactions with input captured via a simple form)/cc @openlink @Mastodon @tallship @Gargron @peepstein @blaine @atomicpoet