Post AUADpFNZEBQaSuUlPc by gwilymgj@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by gwilymgj@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AU9fQwLpms6oNJnTLk by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-30T22:22:28Z
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Lake Onslow hydro storage scheme at $15.7 billion works out (roughly) the same as installing a free $8,000 battery storage system (equiv. to a Tesla PowerWall) in every household in the country - which could be intelligently grid-tied.
(DIR) Post #AU9jaZTE6zto7l6Pyq by luukpaulussen@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-30T23:09:01Z
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@vik Which of those two options is more environmentally friendly in the long run?
(DIR) Post #AU9jjVklIl6RCZZFE8 by futuresprog@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-30T23:10:38Z
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@vik That’s some good maths. Heck yeah! I’d support that.
(DIR) Post #AU9nEHIKXsOespkzKq by rimu@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-30T23:49:46Z
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@vik Batteries only last a few years.
(DIR) Post #AU9sywZxsmf0154oNM by gwilymgj@mastodon.social
2023-03-31T00:54:14Z
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@vik any idea how that would compare energy storage wise?
(DIR) Post #AUABqQK3pGvImrHwDg by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T04:25:36Z
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@luukpaulussenIt entirely depends on how you manage either of them.
(DIR) Post #AUACRu5Y7UCBoqNAFk by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T04:32:24Z
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@rimu15 years is not a few, which is what you'd expect for current static lithium installations. Which batteries did you mean, and what do you consider acceptable performance degredation? Hydro power systems, transmission lines, and dams also do not last forever.
(DIR) Post #AUADdpaWmH77I577Jo by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T04:45:46Z
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@gwilymgjNot really a comparison thing in terms of pure storage. The big issue of having a huge power storage system is in collating and distributing the power through the low capacity of our antiquated national network. Lake Onslow doesn't even address that problem.
(DIR) Post #AUADpDn18ab5XGO3ns by gwilymgj@mastodon.social
2023-03-31T00:56:51Z
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@vik “The pumped hydro scheme at Lake Onslow is expected to provide between 3 and 8.5TWh”
(DIR) Post #AUADpENsvW5VNbdVGi by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T04:47:48Z
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@gwilymgjUnfortunately the inter-island cable only handles 1.2TW and that's mostly spoken for already.
(DIR) Post #AUADpFNZEBQaSuUlPc by gwilymgj@mastodon.social
2023-03-31T01:01:06Z
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@vik I think 12kwh powerwalls x 2 million households = 0.024 twh ?
(DIR) Post #AUAHtHPI1vV9jHTmWu by rimu@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T05:33:22Z
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@vik I didn't realise it was 15 years, that's awesome.Hydro power stations last for 100 years, tho. Pretty low maintenance too.
(DIR) Post #AUAKC7bCv37AinALcu by rimu@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T05:34:36Z
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@vik We should do both. Maximum hydropower and powerwalls.
(DIR) Post #AUAKC86P344IHXlGFc by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T05:59:10Z
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@rimuYup, but maybe put the dam in a better location or budget for the transmission lines it'll need.
(DIR) Post #AUAdewAiNnRMo7ECrw by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T09:37:17Z
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@futuresprogThat said, storage system like that but broken into bits positioned closer to point of use would benefit industry far and wide. Maybe some people too....
(DIR) Post #AUBkMkGumWkfWbMPui by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-03-31T22:27:08Z
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@gwilymgj Something bugged me about that, so I looked up how much the 1.2TW Te Mihi geothermal station cost. $500m in 2014 $. It generates 8.5TWh in 3.4 hours coincidentally at the same power rating as the inter-island cable.
(DIR) Post #AUCTFah6ULZXjMZZjc by BigD@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T06:49:02Z
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@vik @gwilymgj Onslow will not actually generate more power, its purpose will be to provide stored water to continue generation of power when required. It will be a battery of sorts. One option is using Roxburgh Hydro for generation, which exists already.So there is really not any overload of existing transmission lines.
(DIR) Post #AUCUlUm28UqWabeiiO by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-04-01T07:06:57Z
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@BigDThe crazy thing is that it'll store less than 4hrs of output from a geothermal power station costing a thirtieth as much. With either Roxburgh or Onslow an *additional* ~$10b of transmission upgrades will be required.@gwilymgj
(DIR) Post #AUCUoU713IYPPFtabY by phil_stevens@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T07:07:18Z
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@vik And (drum roll) puts the storage much closer to the point of demand. As in literally right there instead of at the opposite end of the country for most of us.
(DIR) Post #AUCY5pJfliXLxHmD7g by BigD@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T07:44:14Z
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@vik @gwilymgj It also requires rain on the west coast and snow melt to keep it at optimum storage. Which with climate change, may not be reliable.I actually prefer wind as a generator. As like solar, storage is a big challenge.There is some movement in battery farms being adopted. One being built at Ruakaka. Possibly linked to a Solar farm nearby also being developed.It does offer some buffer to supply for that region if the grid has problems with transmission from other sources.
(DIR) Post #AUCZ0GFknzRliNqzIW by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-04-01T07:54:22Z
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@BigDThere's this issue the industry has (and it's not the only industry so aligned) of rating efficiency above resiliency. What we need is massively redundant generation capacity. What the industry wants to do is ... something I can't actually talk about.@gwilymgj
(DIR) Post #AUCZaMjaBb5UEz1PVI by BigD@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T08:01:03Z
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@vik @gwilymgj You've lost me. massively redundant generation capacity. ?
(DIR) Post #AUCgd1q321YtyvGLku by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-04-01T09:19:58Z
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@BigDGenerate a lot more power than we need with minimal storage for load balancing, on the basis that for 99.99% of the time it's more than enough and resiliency deals with the 0.01%. When you consider our needs will constantly be increasing as fossil fuels are replaced it makes sense to build what's overkill now but will be mere baseload in a decade or so.@gwilymgj
(DIR) Post #AUCkHU53kNtN1EGaOW by BigD@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T10:00:52Z
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@vik @gwilymgj Possibly. Fossil fuel generation is only at Huntley now I think? And that is on demand only to compensate for lack of renewable sourced generation at peak periods.Over capacity generation would probably have grid stability problems unless that surplus can be transferred to more industry usage ( vis smelter) or the likes of Onslow.We are a small population with increasing energy demand, so funding which ever methods employed is a big issue. User pays has limitations.
(DIR) Post #AUDXPf5vZofzFUCZ0K by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-04-01T19:11:26Z
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@BigD @gwilymgj Getting domestic users to foot the bill for 100 years of climate abuse (which was mostly industrial) all in one lump is going to have issues all of its own. Leaving it to a market that doesn't even make its big money out of actually selling electricity has its own heap of problems that are not going to be solved without significant intervention.