Post AU564QLHQkYk9sty4G by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
(DIR) More posts by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
(DIR) Post #AU55nAFxz2X9LYBcES by arossp@mastodon.social
2023-03-28T17:16:53Z
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This, from @jbouie, is exactly right. And what makes it worse is that the cultural values so many of these parents want to force upon schools are in fact bad and immoral and, to the extent they become more widely represented in our society, the lower and more vicious our society becomes. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/28/opinion/parents-rights-republicans-florida.html?unlocked_article_code=bJ_49bcVvUI_58WtG9TLPyBVR-D4ssqQ9bXTyhHytAtFaYiaj2hATf0GVVZZuhKqZ5P5d6POzOiAhigTPVibOgjMwnW2G4-loBvQh8J7lL8DMd12sDmHNGaAA7l6h7lsH9o-1Dq1xTwHOLyttVEblZAKlhS6AS5er2cBUk5zoZJfRg8KzyrwQiUFK8mmZ-WWdD5eXONkTnPOWn6_km8e0rP8ZF11W4kG7JMAQb1VZgXMrRoI3Jg0IpYbcsZtweZ9GgslP4BD8Ma6eN5xE5cr0JRfEiUXd5zPjh6DCiK80B5MmqPHWwKTicXtszXknKSnIOnYBZ1U8QcdRpOrDDJdIXMqz3D02aHbeV6QGQ&smid=url-share
(DIR) Post #AU55nBHQB7I8WLsI8e by andrea@tryste.ro
2023-03-28T17:22:18Z
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@arossp @jbouie "Parent's rights" is a claim of ownership over another person and nothing else
(DIR) Post #AU55nCLMDy2Boqiwue by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-28T17:24:14Z
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@andreaSo is "teacher's rights"@arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU564QLHQkYk9sty4G by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-28T17:27:22Z
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@arossp>parent's rights are for parents who disagree with me, not for parents who agree with meMaybe you're right. Maybe we should fix that by giving *all* parents a say.Parent's rights are absolute. And state's rights/devolution/decentralisation is pretty important too.@jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU56bx1ew1Ab54i9ce by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-28T17:33:27.009800Z
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@Hyolobrika @andrea @arossp @jbouie I would actually argue it's a claim that government has less authority in your own home than you do. Children depend on their parents, and it's a parent's responsibility (and usually goal) to make decisions that will protect and prepare a child for unsupervised adult life. That means being able to make decisions on their behalf until they are responsible enough to make those decisions without unknowingly putting themselves in harms way. It has nothing to do with ownership. We use the possessive pronouns because they came from us, not because we own them.Teachers rights on the other hand is a claim of authority over others. Specifically it's a claim that they should somehow have more authority over a child in their care than the parents in spite of the fact that they hold far less accountability for the overall result of the child's upbringing than the parents do.
(DIR) Post #AU5Pw2ucembcG4iPa4 by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-28T21:09:55Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouieParents' rights are absolutely not absolute.We have numerous laws to protect children from abuse, including by their parents. One of those abuses is to teach children lies and keep them from learning (age-appropriately) about the world as it is.
(DIR) Post #AU5TIfaJqz7EQrhLGK by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-28T21:47:40Z
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@hughOK. Yeah. Abuse is not good.Completely disagree that it's the government's job to define what's true and force children to believe it contrary to their parents' wishes, however.I will die on this hill.@arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU6E4zaTNr8UGCkYm8 by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-29T06:31:47Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouieSo you're utterly opposed to deSantis's banning of books and restrictions on the curriculum?
(DIR) Post #AU6dss9ZnJMkXQ3CnA by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T11:20:57Z
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@hughIt apparently goes beyond simply protecting kids from pornography and results in the removal of books on leftist subjects at the behest of at least one parent, so mostly yes.My preferred solution is to have parents vote on it.@arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU6miiPc3aCF18mcS0 by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T12:59:56.715432Z
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@roboneko @MischievousTomato @Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouie @thatguyoverthere @andrea > the cultural values so many of these parents want to force upon schools are in fact bad and immoralthis strongly implies to me that they're okay with imposing values if they agree with the values so no contradiction.
(DIR) Post #AU6mqL9KQlDdBbnnEm by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T13:01:20.619192Z
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@roboneko @Hyolobrika @MischievousTomato @andrea @arossp @jbouie @thatguyoverthere also lol indoctrinating your kids by sneaking books into the library isn't part of the culture war, documenting it and opposing it is.
(DIR) Post #AU6o8J1z95IlmaUw8O by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T13:15:49.316368Z
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@Hyolobrika @hugh @arossp @jbouie what do you mean by leftist subjects? I would think most subjects are not left or right, but the relaying of that material could be colored with a particular political slant. I would argue schools should not try to influence people politically and should instead educate children about facts. I understand that teachers will hold a particular position, but this should be kept out of the schools since they are acting on behalf of the state.
(DIR) Post #AU6t1izcilAq2u4gDI by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T14:10:38Z
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@MoonWell, @arossp is apparently a libertarian.@roboneko @MischievousTomato @jbouie @thatguyoverthere @andrea
(DIR) Post #AU6uLT5XfBE0Sroy3M by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T14:25:24Z
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@thatguyoverthereIt's probably impossible to teach without any political slant. For instance, the way you convey the facts and the specific facts you choose to convey are influenced by politics.The leftist subjects being censored are "social justice" concepts apparently.@hugh @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU6wUJuhLPpeWX67EW by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T14:49:26.584723Z
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@Hyolobrika @hugh @arossp @jbouie yeah everyone is going to inject their own personal bias, but what I mean is more about defining correctness based on a political view.I'm still not quite sure what you mean with social justice subjects. Isn't that stuff usually worked into other course material? I remember here where I live a few years ago they were pushing a math course that was designed to create a narrative about how math was stolen from black people by white people. I think this kind of material should not be in math class. It's one thing to teach the history of Algebra as originating in Arabia/Persia for example and another thing entirely to say that evil Europeans stole the worlds math and oppressed everyone.
(DIR) Post #AU6wWlSbtdgEXR7pYW by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T14:49:53.113962Z
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@Hyolobrika @Moon @arossp @roboneko @MischievousTomato @jbouie @andrea libertarian arguing against individual liberties :Thinker:
(DIR) Post #AU6xzuAah5zXtz9jWa by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T15:06:20Z
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@thatguyoverthere>defining correctness based on a political view.Not sure what you mean by that.>I'm still not quite sure what you mean with social justice subjectsCan't find the article, sorry.>It's one thing to teach the history of Algebra as originating in Arabia/Persia for example and another thing entirely to say that evil Europeans stole the worlds math and oppressed everyone.I agree, but ultimately it's up to the parents.@hugh @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU6yVpC6jE5ljm5O8u by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T15:12:06.481170Z
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@Hyolobrika @hugh @arossp @jbouie what I mean by defining correctness based on political view is using subjective interpretations of facts as the facts themselves.> It's ultimately up to the parents.Maybe I'm crossing threads here but I thought the start of this thread was about how "parents rights" is just a euphemism for I want to raise intolerant children.
(DIR) Post #AU6yePkYhPkrQgIPhY by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T15:13:40Z
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@thatguyoverthereIf it's up to the parents, it's up to the parents. "Parent's rights" works both ways.@hugh @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU6z8x0zaKghHpXldA by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-29T15:19:11.559859Z
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@Hyolobrika @hugh @arossp @jbouie sure if people want to teach their own kids things that I don't that's on them. not having the state mandate and fund that "education" seems like a pretty reasonable middle ground :shrug:
(DIR) Post #AU7AXerPJriliU2nsO by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-29T17:26:52Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouieMeaning strangers who happen to be parents get to vote on what my child can read in school.You're saying you can't trust teachers. Homeschool, then, and retard your kids' education.
(DIR) Post #AU7AlJkyZyqiJoY7we by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-29T17:29:20Z
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@Hyolobrika Not "social justice", social justice. What have you got against social justice? You think kids should be taught bigotry?
(DIR) Post #AU7BPi3fe7dVGuYPj6 by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-29T17:36:37Z
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@Hyolobrika @thatguyoverthere @arossp @jbouieWhat is this answering? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
(DIR) Post #AU7EhVRzYlaRFE6kJU by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T18:13:29Z
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@hughYes.@thatguyoverthere @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AU7F4svASktYhJu0Se by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T18:17:43Z
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@hughI have nothing against actual social justice. I do (although its not really relevant to the issue) have something against "social justice" that consists of blaming today's cis het white men for crimes committed by yesterday's cis get white men. But I think parents' should be allowed to teach it (or have it taught) to their kids. Same for the kind of bigotry you disagree with.
(DIR) Post #AU7XGSeNlElbs1ikEq by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-29T21:41:30Z
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@hughBTW, I was responding to thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club, not you. It may not be obvious due to your instance blocking his.
(DIR) Post #AU9965YPBBgYIogr8i by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-30T16:20:05Z
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@Hyolobrika @thatguyoverthere @arossp @jbouieNo. Children need to get another perspective on the world than just their parents'. They need to be exposed to the marketplace of ideas.Nothing but parents' views 24/7/365 is how cults survive.
(DIR) Post #AU99H5jeqRv23DCTMe by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-30T16:22:08.396603Z
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@hugh @Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouie no one said children should be isolated from the world, but parents definitely have both the right and the responsibility to protect and educate their children, and a certain amount of autonomy in deciding what that means.
(DIR) Post #AU99azThoqNcR5E9p2 by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-03-30T16:25:41Z
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@Hyolobrika"blaming today's cis het white men for crimes committed by yesterday's cis het white men."is a right-wing parody of what CRT (which is not taught in schools) is. The books being banned do little more than describe accurately what slavery and segregation were, and how they were overcome.
(DIR) Post #AUAi0wMujPoVbZgJyi by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-03-31T10:26:05Z
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@hughWhat is CRT then? I know that sort of thing does happen, even if it's not called CRT and is not taught in schools.>The books being banned do little more than describe accurately what slavery and segregation were, and how they were overcome.I have heard some of them do. That's the sort of thing I meant when I was talking about leftist subjects being censored with @thatguyoverthere.
(DIR) Post #AUAjOBrpNFnQHtn8PA by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-03-31T10:41:30.411539Z
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@Hyolobrika @hugh supporters of critical race theory like to point out that the theory isn't taught in schools. What they mean is that the "theory" aspect of it is not being taught. The reality is that theory is being **applied** in schools rather than taught. I don't have any comment on what books are or aren't allowed in Florida schools (not a Floridian), but I do not think CRT should color our education system (no pun intended). I think it's disingenuous to claim it's not being taught in schools because the point isn't to teach people about the theory it's to move them to support a particular social cause. The theory helps educators move people in that direction when applied. The problem I have is that truthfulness is secondary to the social cause, and the social cause is divisive. What CRT supporters want is for white people to acknowledge their privilege and prejudice. The truth is that not all white people are privileged [or racially prejudicial], and assuming so is actually prejudice (albeit acceptable in the eyes of CRT).
(DIR) Post #AUArNsbpm30uC3fomm by AmberWavesofFlame@qoto.org
2023-03-31T12:11:01Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouie this is the logic that have embedded homeowners’ associations in neighborhoods across the US. Sold as giving power to the “community” instead of the “government,” and that’s obviously good, right? The reality is that it gives every spun-up Frank and Karen a license to ban anything they don’t like or reminds them of people they don’t approve of. The tyranny o the loudest in a mob is not always more empowering for the rest!
(DIR) Post #AUAsP6Ubk0QdUoROkq by AmberWavesofFlame@qoto.org
2023-03-31T12:22:29Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouie we DO give all parents a say. It’s called school board elections. A democratic process of selecting qualified locals who have dedicated their lives to education and institute orderly processes for making sure concerns are heard out in a *balanced* and big picture way, rather than de facto ruled by Facebook rumors and YouTube rants aimed at the same sorts of gullible older folks once convinced D&D was a Satanic cult.
(DIR) Post #AUBeJ0KeWpfMS3wSRc by nottrobin@union.place
2023-03-31T21:19:13Z
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@HyolobrikaYes, the correct focus is child's rightshttps://chaosfem.tw/@theogrin/110117283480486271@andrea @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUBfHaHfzN2DKVR7Gi by nottrobin@union.place
2023-03-31T21:30:10Z
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@HyolobrikaAbuse is a spectrum. I agree that it's totally possible for the state to also abuse children, so policy needs careful design. But to children, parents are the first authority, the ultimate oppressor.Any responsible society will provide children with lifelines to escape that oppression, to discover new perspectives and other options.Expansive education is a fundamental freedom. Fuck what the parents think.@hugh @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUCrFVRAQpkqKHbx2m by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-01T11:18:59Z
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@nottrobinHow can parents "oppress" children by teaching them things? How can't the state (through teachers) do the same thing?The only difference I can see is that you happen to agree with the state's indoctrination but not the parents'. That could easily change.@hugh @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUCrRhtfvrlCRclORE by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-01T11:21:11Z
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@nottrobinHow? Are you saying we should give children the sole right to guide their own education, without any adult intervention at all?@andrea @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUCueD2kFycSNeeuiO by nottrobin@union.place
2023-04-01T11:57:03Z
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@HyolobrikaI'm saying that they should be provided with an empowering education regardless of, and if necessary in opposition to, the will of the parents.@andrea @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUCvG3e5e4RaEqArdA by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-01T12:03:54Z
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@nottrobinWhat makes you think that they (the children) want that?@andrea @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUCvN3rvDLNoxPz2Rc by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-01T12:05:11.415059Z
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@nottrobin @Hyolobrika @andrea @arossp @jbouie what does an "empowering" education mean?
(DIR) Post #AUCvbN18ognWOs7QSe by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T12:07:43Z
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@Hyolobrika @nottrobin @arossp @jbouieEasy. Think of the Westboro Baptist Church. It's not only teaching them things, it's keeping them ignorant, and that comes easy to ignorant parents.It's not about agendas, but knowledge. You're saying that children should not be exposed to any information that differs from their parents'.
(DIR) Post #AUCw4lCpxkknolbUeG by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T12:13:02Z
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@Hyolobrika @thatguyovertherehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#:~:text=Critical%20race%20theory%20(CRT)%20is,conceptions%20of%20race%20and%20ethnicity.
(DIR) Post #AUCyXivNiy1B32NT9M by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-01T12:40:43Z
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@thatguyoverthereI recommend using your xmrposter.club account. Their instances seem to block shitposter.club.@arossp @jbouie @andrea @nottrobin
(DIR) Post #AUCyde9aNKRdzMqUk4 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-01T12:41:47Z
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@hughYou seem to be saying that children shouldn't be exposed to their parents' worldview if it differs from yours.@nottrobin @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUD64OoODuV9u9dRIW by thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club
2023-04-01T14:05:04.398557Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouie @andrea @nottrobin eh, my interest is merely casual. I might give it more effort later.
(DIR) Post #AUDe7a6E6q6EDtfQ6S by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-04-01T20:26:34Z
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@Hyolobrika @nottrobin @arossp @jbouieI believe no such thing. They get exposed to their parents' worldview till 8am and after 4 pm every weekday, and all day on weekends and holidays. I never suggested changing that.
(DIR) Post #AUDsJFkN0JKVvyu55M by nottrobin@union.place
2023-04-01T23:05:34Z
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@HyolobrikaI've actually got big sympathies with anyone sceptical of the state's teachings. They inject their state propaganda from an early age. There will always be a political fight over that curriculum.That's why children need open and free access to knowledge, as far as is possible, regardless what any authority thinks. No books should be banned, libraries should be free, internet access should be easy etc.@hugh @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUFdXUxy6bxgC5WDb6 by hugh@mastodon.nz
2023-04-02T19:19:37Z
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@nottrobin @Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouieIs it even legal to require kids to swear the pledge of allegiance?
(DIR) Post #AUFdXVc1hg0KCKGD2G by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-04-02T19:29:29Z
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@hughIIRC, according to @Popehat, in the US, no. But I can't find exactly where he said that.@nottrobin @arossp @jbouie
(DIR) Post #AUFfmVt1AOGDIeUSzw by Alex@wreck.rocks
2023-04-02T19:54:38.878927Z
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@Hyolobrika @arossp @jbouie Children, much like the parents who produced them, are the property of the state and ought not disobey what their owners tell them to believe. That is what the state, and those who defend it, believe.